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Old 10-12-2010, 08:13 AM   #1
Duckenfuss
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Default Why you don't use Goldfish for bait!!! (PICS)

Passed by Mann Lake this past week and noticed dozens of ravens on the edge. We realized what was going on before we reached the lake. Pretty strange sight. It's frustrating to know that it likely took only one numbskull to screw this fishery up for us. I hope these pictures will help this from happening again.












It was the same story around the entire lakebed. There had to be a million of them! Although we did not circle the entire lake, we could not find any of the lahontan's among the huge (12"+) goldies. The volunteers must have done a great job at removing them first.

What do you think happens to all the wildlife feeding on these fish? Does the rotenone break down quickly enough to not have too much of an effect?

Hopefully this fishery will be up and running again in a couple years and we can learn from an idiot's mistake.

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Old 10-12-2010, 08:15 AM   #2
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Default Re: Why you don't use Goldfish for bait!!! (PICS)

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Originally Posted by Duckenfuss View Post
Passed by Mann Lake this past week and noticed dozens of ravens on the edge. We realized what was going on before we reached the lake. Pretty strange sight. It's frustrating to know that it likely took only one numbskull to screw this fishery up for us. I hope these pictures will help this from happening again.












It was the same story around the entire lakebed. There had to be a million of them! Although we did not circle the entire lake, we could not find any of the lahontan's among the huge (12"+) goldies. The volunteers must have done a great job at removing them first.

What do you think happens to all the wildlife feeding on these fish? Does the rotenone break down quickly enough to not have too much of an effect?

Hopefully this fishery will be up and running again in a couple years and we can learn from an idiot's mistake.
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Old 10-12-2010, 08:29 AM   #3
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Default Re: Why you don't use Goldfish for bait!!! (PICS)

People have been planting fish and plants for centuries now, don't see that changing any time soon. Sad though. Now if we could just get those bass and walleye out of the Columbia!!!!
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Old 10-12-2010, 08:37 AM   #4
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Default Re: Why you don't use Goldfish for bait!!! (PICS)

That's just crazy amazing! How long have the goldies been loose in that lake?
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Old 10-12-2010, 08:55 AM   #5
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Default Re: Why you don't use Goldfish for bait!!! (PICS)

My uncle claims he was the first to report it to the DFW and that had to be 6-8 years ago. He caught one while flysfishing.
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Old 10-12-2010, 09:15 AM   #6
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Default Re: Why you don't use Goldfish for bait!!! (PICS)

That is a crying shame. Hope the lake recovers soon.
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Old 10-12-2010, 09:58 AM   #7
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Default Re: Why you don't use Goldfish for bait!!! (PICS)

I believe rotenone breaks down pretty fast once it's exposed to light. Unfortunately, it's the petroleum products that are used to cut and disperse the rotenone that are the most harmful to wildlife. They take a little longer to break down.
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Old 10-12-2010, 11:17 AM   #8
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Default Re: Why you don't use Goldfish for bait!!! (PICS)

I bet that smelled good!
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Old 10-12-2010, 11:41 AM   #9
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Default Re: Why you don't use Goldfish for bait!!! (PICS)

Rotenone only affects the gills of a fish and yes, it dissipates quickly. No danger to other wildlife...

(We've removed several references to the repeat of the photos, which was done by a new member still learning the ropes. No need to be overly critical. Did anyone send him a friendly PM suggesting how to do it correctly?)

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Old 10-12-2010, 12:01 PM   #10
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Default Re: Why you don't use Goldfish for bait!!! (PICS)

Native people have been using rotenone for eons to stun and capture fish. It doesn't effect people or other animals once it has been used.

From wiki:

Quote:
Rotenone is an odorless chemical that is used as a broad-spectrum insecticide, piscicide, and pesticide. It occurs naturally in the roots and stems of several plants such as the jicama vine plant

Rotenone is used in solution as a pesticide and insecticide, or in emulsified liquid form as a piscicide.[3]

People catch fish by extracting rotenone from plants and releasing it into water. Poisoned fish come to the surface and are easily caught. This method was first practiced by various indigenous tribes[4] who smashed the roots. Fish caught this way can be eaten because rotenone is very poorly absorbed by the gastrointestinal tract of humans, whereas it is lethal to fish because it readily enters the blood stream of the fish through the gills.

Small-scale sampling with rotenone is used by fish researchers studying the biodiversity of marine fishes to collect cryptic, or hidden, fishes, which represent an important component of shoreline fish communities. Rotenone is the most effective tool available because only small quantities are necessary. It has only minor and transient environmental side-effects.[5]

Rotenone is an excellent organic pesticide dust for the garden. It kills potato beetles, cucumber beetles, flea beetles, cabbage worms, raspberry bugs, and asparagus bugs to name a few. Rotenone bio-degrades naturally in a few days so there is no harmful residue. A light dusting on the leaves of plants will control insects for several days. It is not harmful to humans when used properly.
The story that I was told by the ODFW was that it was a couple of brothers in Burns that got the bright idea. They ruined Chickahominay first and they are in a bunch of the other lakes/reservoirs in the area. By the time ODFW realized it, the old sporting goods store in Burns was selling live goldfish.

The biggest problem will be that the lake is going to be nitrogen saturated for a while until all of that biomass breaks down. That should be a bit faster in that high alkaline lake, but the process will be slowed down by the coming winter. Hopefully it can be planted in the spring.

Now they have about a dozen more lakes that need the trash taken out.

Nice job ODFW!
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Old 10-12-2010, 02:54 PM   #11
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Default Re: Why you don't use Goldfish for bait!!! (PICS)

So wait......what happened?
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Old 10-12-2010, 04:40 PM   #12
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Old 10-12-2010, 04:58 PM   #13
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Default Re: Why you don't use Goldfish for bait!!! (PICS)

Someone apparently used live goldfish for bait in Mann Lake some years back and they, well, you know the rest...Very few Lahontans remained. From the air, pilots described the lake as green with a golden rim, like a halo.

The department recently treated it with rotenone, killing every fish (they hope) so they can replant it...
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Old 10-12-2010, 05:27 PM   #14
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Default Re: Why you don't use Goldfish for bait!!! (PICS)

To bad a pet store didnt get to sell them. They want like 20$ a piece for ones this size!
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Old 10-12-2010, 05:40 PM   #15
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Default Re: Why you don't use Goldfish for bait!!! (PICS)

too bad they cant get all the dang bass out of Crane Prairie,Wikiup and Davis lake
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Old 10-12-2010, 05:47 PM   #16
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Default Re: Why you don't use Goldfish for bait!!! (PICS)

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Originally Posted by Chance View Post
I believe rotenone breaks down pretty fast once it's exposed to light. Unfortunately, it's the petroleum products that are used to cut and disperse the rotenone that are the most harmful to wildlife. They take a little longer to break down.
Actually the rate at which rotenone breaks down is more temperature dependent - the higher the water temperature the faster it breaks down. Anywhere from 5-7 days for 80-85 degree water to maybe six weeks (or longer) when applied under the ice.

Regarding the petroleum carrier; if they used powered rotenone there would be no petroleum carrier and there is a new liquid rotenone formulation that does not use a petroleum carrier.

Rotenone toxicity is extremely low for mammals and birds, should not be a problem for avian or mammalian scavengers.

The lake can most likely be stocked again in 2-3 weeks post treatment. Fish growth should be good to excellent the next year or so.

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Old 10-12-2010, 05:49 PM   #17
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Default Re: Why you don't use Goldfish for bait!!! (PICS)

Mann Lake used to be awesome. Big fish every cast. I fished it yearly from about 98 to 2002. Around 2002 is when I remember seeing all the goldfish jumping around.

Hopefully it will be a good fishery again some day. No only if we could get rid of the wind there.
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Old 10-12-2010, 06:33 PM   #18
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Default Re: Why you don't use Goldfish for bait!!! (PICS)

And people didn't enjoy catching 4 pound goldfish? I imagine it would be fun.....
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Old 10-12-2010, 07:11 PM   #19
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Default Re: Why you don't use Goldfish for bait!!! (PICS)

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Originally Posted by Bill Monroe View Post
Someone apparently used live goldfish for bait in Mann Lake some years back and they, well, you know the rest...Very few Lahontans remained. From the air, pilots described the lake as green with a golden rim, like a halo.

The department recently treated it with rotenone, killing every fish (they hope) so they can replant it...
They have the same problem in Lake Washington although it was not from bait. Some people think it is humane and kind to the pet fish to "release" them when they no longer want to take care of them.

Dan
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Old 10-12-2010, 07:18 PM   #20
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Now only if we could get rid of the wind there.
Actually, Rotenone must be effective on the wind as well. Four nights there and nary a breeze to be felt! That's good because I took the family tent and the wifey hates when I bring them back all torn up.
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Old 10-12-2010, 07:57 PM   #21
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Default Re: Why you don't use Goldfish for bait!!! (PICS)

Duckenfuss, thanks for sharing those post-treatment pics with us.

I'm sure a lot of desert rats, and even those occasional desert rats are looking forward to again visiting Mann and fighting some big fish, and even bigger wind!
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Old 10-12-2010, 08:12 PM   #22
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Default Re: Why you don't use Goldfish for bait!!! (PICS)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Monroe View Post
Rotenone only affects the gills of a fish and yes, it dissipates quickly. No danger to other wildlife...

(We've removed several references to the repeat of the photos, which was done by a new member still learning the ropes. No need to be overly critical. Did anyone send him a friendly PM suggesting how to do it correctly?)

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I challenge your authority on this subject. Here is a fact that you must not be aware of.
"Rotenone is slightly toxic to wildfowl. The LD50 values for rotenone in mallards and pheasants is (greater than) 2,000 mg/kg and 1,680 mg/kg respectively. Some of the signs of intoxication in birds include muscle incoordination, feathers fluffed or held tightly to the body, wings drooped and the neck pulled in. Remission of signs of intoxication take about a week. It appears that birds are more sensitive to ground derris root than to pure rotenone (6)."
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Old 10-12-2010, 08:52 PM   #23
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Default Re: Why you don't use Goldfish for bait!!! (PICS)

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I challenge your authority on this subject. Here is a fact that you must not be aware of.
"Rotenone is slightly toxic to wildfowl. The LD50 values for rotenone in mallards and pheasants is (greater than) 2,000 mg/kg and 1,680 mg/kg respectively. Some of the signs of intoxication in birds include muscle incoordination, feathers fluffed or held tightly to the body, wings drooped and the neck pulled in. Remission of signs of intoxication take about a week. It appears that birds are more sensitive to ground derris root than to pure rotenone (6)."
2 grams per kg body weight is a pretty high dose, meaning it's really not very toxic.
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Old 10-12-2010, 08:57 PM   #24
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That's just crazy amazing! How long have the goldies been loose in that lake?
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Old 10-13-2010, 05:15 AM   #25
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2 grams per kg body weight is a pretty high dose, meaning it's really not very toxic.
And the presence of mallards or (especially) pheasants around Mann Lake in mid-September is pretty remote. And the birds would have been exposed to pure, not the root...
I don't recall any problems with either species in Diamond Lake, either...
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Old 10-13-2010, 05:49 AM   #26
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http://www.oregonlive.com/sports/ore...from_mann.html

Curiously enough, rotenone is apparently also used in a mild dust form to rid chickens of insects...
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Old 10-13-2010, 06:31 AM   #27
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Default Re: Why you don't use Goldfish for bait!!! (PICS)

FYI Rotenone is one of many approved pesticide chemicals for use on organic crops.
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Old 10-13-2010, 06:47 AM   #28
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Default Re: Why you don't use Goldfish for bait!!! (PICS)

So much for that goldfish trolling rig I set up!

Maybe it will work for Tai chubs somewhere...

BTW, I heard UO has announced a new dorm food fish stick meal plan.

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