How do you feel about commercials reducing seals?

[Full Freezer]

It may be against the law for gillkillers to shoot seals/sealions, but how do you FEEL about it?

[David Johnson]

Can I buy them some shells?

[OregonSportsman]

I can understand wanting to save the seal and sea lions when their numbers were few, but now there are so damn many of them they need to be managed just like everything else. I say open a season for em'....

[Pickles]

Where do we get a tag?

[StinkyH]

I put this together but I saw it on a shirt at the outdoor show and wish I woulda bought it. :grin:

Given we could get tags - I'd wear this in the photo where I was holding up the head of the recently deceased mark. Payback for a weekend I spent fishing the Siletz with only one bump where I saw a seal come up with a big ole stripe of silver across it's grill.

StinkyH

[ 03-13-2004, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: StinkyH ]

[Fish Hawg]

I need to find something my 300 ultra mag wont go through j/k :grin: :tongue:

[stlhdr1]

Yeah, I'd buy them the beer... We could put some lawn chairs down on the sandy beaches and watch... Cheer them on... Heck, put me on point I've got a 22-250 that I'd love to use out there. Would be too much fun...
Heck you wouldn't even have to pay me, I'd do it for free...
keith

[Mr. BrownTrout]

Yes it has needed to be repealed long ago (marine mammal proctection act), but it would take an act of congress to pass it and then look out for all the fruits and nuts to come out of the woodwork protesting killing those cute little critters.

[brdkdg]

When we get the laws changed, I'll be one of the first ones out there doing herd management!!

[Carver_OR]

Keep the seals and get rid of the gill netters.

Pat

[OregonSportsman]

Originally posted by Carver_OR:
Keep the seals and get rid of the gill netters.

Pat

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Get rid of both of them!

[Claybear]

I'll donate a fifth of Crown Royal! [img]graemlins/lurk.gif[/img]

[SalmonSeason]

Seals and Sea Lions have no business being up in the Willamette and further...I know of at least one harbor seal seen up the Clackamas...ridiculous place

The ODFW would issue "seal bombs" -firecrackers and said it was okay for local authorities to use them to scare the seals/lions off, but this is when there were smolts in the river....another ridiculous practice-at least the local authorities had common sense not to use them in fear of killing smolts

Fed Gov't has paid trappers/shooters for problem game and non game...here's a problem critter that needs cullin

[fish-bones]

I think the esa has gone to far protecting thousands of different fish and all kinds of critters,including some type of rat in Calif.The idiots that manage it don,t want to lose a high paying job,so they keep adding to the list.Their was a case in Arizona where they was going to fine a guy thousands of dollars a day if he developed land he bought for an RV park.The problem was that a little pond had some kind of snail in it that was on the ESA list. What a joke .Everybody is trying to get rid of all types of snails and slugs,that is an ongoing battle.

I say that if a seal or sealion comes up river they should be fair game.we don,t need another indiscriminate predator,like GILLNETTERS.
I,m not siding with gillnetters,but have at it and good luck with your target practice.I have some extra shells if they need them.

FISH-BONES

[rebell]

I would rather have the seals than the gillnetts!

[Jignfloat]

Ive never understood why the Natives dont get all over the seals.....they kept them at bay historicaly by any means they could. Who could or would stop them if they decided they needed to be thinned out?? I certainly would like to see them put a dent in the herd......


Russ

[Born to be Wild]

Harbor seals are cool, intelligent critters and shooting them is similar to shooting someone's dog.

There is a trained seal in Depoe Bay that almost everybody appreciates that does tricks for food (usually fish carcasses).
A gal fish fileter trained her about 7 or 8 years ago.
She has been on TV news and I have tons of video tape of her.
I and many have changed attitudes with “Buddy”.
There are certain circumstances where seals are out of balance with nature because they are so overly protected, but seals aren't the central problem with salmon and steelhead runs.

Now that most over-harvest has been eliminated or controlled you might look at hatchery fish, dams, habitat, and gill-netters as being the largest culprits of salmonid depression.

It is obvious with record and historical numbers of fall chinook in non-hatchery rivers on the Oregon coast and numbers of 50 year highs of Orego coastal wild coho that the seals are not devastating the runs when we do things right.
You might want to go back to the drawing board.

Seals/sea lions and fish have always co-existed.
Wild fish, dams, hatchery fish, gill-netters and derogated habitat have not.

I think sports and commercial fishermen get a bit too greedy and are willing to eliminate anything they think gets in their way.

House cats probably do some damage on pheasant and rabbit populations, so let’s go out and start shooting people’s cats!

Dano

[ 03-13-2004, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: Born to be Wild ]

[Fshklr]

Sorry Dano.. I think some sort of control is needed. hot topic and hot issue [img]graemlins/lurk.gif[/img]

[ 03-13-2004, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: Fshklr ]

[hot wire]

Borntobewild,

GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!!!!!!!!......

[Born to be Wild]

hot topic and hot issue

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">You're right Feeshkiller!
Hey it was cool seeing you again at the sports show.

Probably be good to listen to a penniped bio and see what is actually taking place to their knowledge.

But HewesFisher, you want to back up your science with anything other than; "give me a break"?

Are the seals eating all them record breaking chinook migrating and out-migrating out of the Siletz, Yaquina, Alsea, and Siusalaw Rivers?
Are they eating all those wild coho smolts or adults that are at 50 year highs?


Dano

[ 03-16-2004, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: crabbait ]

[David Johnson]

I know people that do thin out house cats becuase they kill phesant, quail and other small animals.

[Born to be Wild]

Right on David and that is what I mean.
We just all have to work together and not put blame or harm on possibly the innocent or a scapegoat.

I think we can figure this out if we all work together and are open minded.

Dano

[Jimmy Carl Black]

Alot of people think salmon are not worth putting effort and sacrifice to protect. Is this the philosophy we want adhere to. I respect the cycles of nature a little more than to believe that all should be 'managed'.

Maybe we should start a great white hatchery program to solve the overpopulation of seals. We could genetically engineer them so that they can live in fresh water during the springer run. Sorry about the sarcasm but the anti-seal crap just rubs me the wrong way.

[willametteriveroutlaw]

Originally posted by Born to be Wild:

It is obvious with record and historical numbers of fall chinook in non-hatchery rivers on the Oregon coast and numbers of 50 year highs of Orego coastal wild coho that the seals are not devastating the runs when we do things right.
You might want to go back to the drawing board.

Seals/sea lions and fish have always co-existed.
Wild fish, dams, hatchery fish, gill-netters and derogated habitat have not.

reedy and are willing to eliminate anything they think gets in their way.House cats probably do some damage on pheasant and rabbit populations, so let’s go out and start shooting people’s cats!

Dano

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Dan,
Your blinded by thinking that one thing is the majority factor. Hmm Odfw though a few years ago that woody debris was bad for salmon so they went into streams and removed alot of it (hmmm they were wrong)

And not to sound too much like a radical redneck, but when we see cats on the properties we hunt and roaming the woods (nat forest land mostly), they are shot on site, feral cats are a have a huge impact on native songbirds, nesting waterfowl, quail, phesants, etc (some estimates put cats as killing 100 million birds a year) Keep your cat in the house and declawed where it can't cause problems for wildlife.

There are more seals around now though than there were in years past. I see a hundreds of them every year. I litereally see 5 to 6 times the # of seals in Oregon that I see in AK every summer, espicially in Fresh Water. Seals natural predators are almost all gone from our area. Let the netters blast away, heck while you are at it sign me up for a tag, I'll figure out some way to eat it.

As for non hatchery rivers and fall chinook, there are alot more issues in your "comparision" than hatcheries. Look at the Elk it has a huge return and a hatchery, look at the salmon it has a large return of both native and wild fish, and it has a hatchery. hmmmmm am I missing somthing. I think that fishing pressure and habitat degradation has more to do with it that hatcheries when it comes to fall chinook.
If you want to continue this discussion, start another thread.

[ 03-14-2004, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: willametteriveroutlaw ]

[Abalone]

Some how we need to create a demand for Fur coats.

I'd wear one.

[skein]

Are you talking about these cute little guys?





I don't see where they're causing any problems....

Skein

[gottafish]

I think gillnets and habitat are far more detramental to runs than seals! everyone here has seen the trash up on the river you fish but how many pick it up. this winter I have personaly hauled 4 trash bags out. I am not talking little bags but the big yard bags. now lets not forget the illegal netting that was /is going on in the Big C remember those two russian guys that had sunked nets and all those sturgon and walleye in the boat. I have a feeling they did more damage than a 100 seals. its illeagle and it should not be put up with. Were are the ethical sportsmen on this board!!

[SalmonSeason]

I don't know anything about any kitties....they're a companion animal according to law so in essence that would also be a "NO NO"

Dano is right and I agree, but at the same time
we have to realize the dams are here for a long time, the seals/lions are here for a long time, and the gillnets will be here for a long time until WE do something about it... One piece of the puzzle at a time

[sunshinefisherman]

Just like any other game animal, sea lions and seals need to be managed scientifically, not emotionally, ie. the recent constitutional restrictions and couger and bear hunting.

Harbor seals are cool, intelligent critters and shooting them is similar to shooting someone's dog.

There is a trained seal in Depoe Bay that almost everybody appreciates that does tricks for food (usually fish carcasses).
A gal fish fileter trained her about 7 or 8 years ago.
She has been on TV news and I have tons of video tape of her.
I and many have changed attitudes with “Buddy”.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Seals are cute, so are bobcats, deer, etc. I have even see a domesticated couger. Because one seal lion, bear, etc. eats out of your hand does not mean that they are not a wild animal.
I think that the ODFW does a pretty good job of scientific game management.
That said, I would love to kill a sea lion. I was thinking about my bowfishing arrow and a float.
[img]graemlins/eek13.gif[/img]

[Bonneville Dan]

I think that SalmonSeason summed it up perfectly, that this is "a problem critter that needs cullin." Some of us would be more selective than others of course. Ballard Locks would be a good start for a thinning zone. Upper Columbia is another. The coast range has an overpopulation of bobcats, and increasingly of cougars, which are being legally thinned. Same situation, different critter.

Hey Dave, if the ODFW would start sanctioning the thinning, maybe we could get a tax deduction for ammo donations!

[Mark Mc]

Y'all might want to distinguish between seals and sea lions. Sea lions are the ones that grow to 2000 lbs, and they have 10X the appetite and ability to kill salmon than seals do.

Stellar & California sea lions are protected under the MMPA. I'm not sure about seals though. Can anyone validate whether seals are listed?

[lost_sailor]

Originally posted by SalmonSeason:
Seals and Sea Lions have no business being up in the Willamette and further...

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Really, now. What exactly is their "business" then? I thought their business was the eating of fish/



I don't mind if you shoot a few though. I don't think extinction is a good thing.

[Fast Water]

Cull the heard? &lt;snicker&gt;

Just like the Chinese of the 50's and 60's and todays Islamic extremist, they will just keep coming and coming. (not the most appropiate anology, but you get the point)

The issue or problem does not lie with the animals coming upstream and eating fish, it lies with the fact that that we as a group (sub group of human fishing on coastal rivers where pinnipeds exsit) do not like their presence. It's about attitude.

Build a dock or moor a boat and then get mad at the animals who sit on it??

Build or buy a house in the sticks and then get mad at the deer that eat the roses or shoot the big cat whose back yard you are now living in?

Live next to an airport then complain about the noise?

OK, so how do we stop these animals anyway. If you wait till they swim to Portland to kill them, you will have wasted a lot of fish along the way. Your gonna need a 24/7 Pinniped Patrol in Astoria. Gun ships, radar, sonar. If that dosen't work we could always recommision Battery Russel.

The Pinniped Patrol would be a two to three year program of interdiction and education (by way of a leaflet campain at their breeding grounds). In that time I'm sure that these animals will understand that they are not to come up the Columbia River for food.

[2slow]

As with everything in nature there needs to be balance. When the marine animal protection act was made law it was necessary. It has now been successful in accomplishing it's intent and it is now time to modify it so that nature doesnt get out of balance to the other extreme. Seems fairly simple. Species in sharp decline need protection and animals in abundance or overabundance need harvest management. Otherwise nature will have to do it herself through disease or starvation. This commonly happens with deer and elk herds. When populations become too large they starve due to lack of food or they seem to get some kind of disease and large numbers die. Why should seals be any different?

[Amahnee]

I was up toward the falls in OC yesterday and watched a sea lion get two chinooks in about 5-10 minutes. Man, those are some big critters!

[surejam]

Taste Like Chicken !!!!!!


Surejam

[Mr. BrownTrout]

I have a feeling we are going to see more and more incidents where sea lions are attacking or threatening humans and when that one person so happens to be a senator or some government official then I think something will change. But as the NMF have said in the past, it would take approval from all 50 states to repeal the marine mammal protection act. I don't care how cute they are, their numbers are out of control and something needs to be done about it.

[Kentucky Hog Hunter]

Seems to be plenty of them around eating a bunch of salmon lately...

I know they have to eat but shouldn't the population be controlled just like any other animal

It just seems to me that there are so many as compared to 12 years ago when I moved here that they truly are force to be reckoned with in regards to numbers of salmon they are taking...

[chummer]

I prefer my sealion dressed in a nice mono-filament gillnet coat

[Time Off]

I love those pictures Skein. A simple case of over protection.

"Sea Lion, the other white meat"

"Tastes like chicken" :grin:

[10 more minutes]

I was just wondering....what were the seals and sea lions doing before we started fishing? Like, lets say 50 years ago, Everyone's lined up to shoot them...wernt they here first? Do you need a fish that bad? I hate it when I see a seal take a salmon, but dont you guys think your being a little ridiculous?

[ 03-16-2004, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: 10 more minutes ]

[weekend warrior]

When I was younger I saw a seal/sea lion on 3-rivers just below the S-curves :shocked: . Thats when I realized the seals/sea lions were getting out of control. They don't seem to be scared of humans or anything else for that matter.

BTBW said -that they are a very smart mammal, much like a dog-. Thats why they go after fish like they do now because they know they have no predators around. If you beat a dog(I don't own one) it remebers it for along time, possibly it's whole life. Well if a seal/sealion sees this big floating thing(a boat) and starts hearing a loud noise(a gun) and sees it's buddy floatn' downriver it will remember this and start fearing people a little more.

Who knows if anything I'm saying is on track. But all I know is something has to be done, preferably by a .357.

Ah hell, It's all the hatcheries fault and us sportfisherman wanting to take a fish home. Blame it all on us. There you happy Dano?

[Mr. BrownTrout]

It sounds to me that you don't mind that the sea lions will go up to, say, ballard locks, OC falls, bonniville dam and just gorge themselves on salmon, steelhead, hatchery or native they don't care and the fish don't have a chance to survive.

[Snakebite]

I agree that seals and sea lions that enter bays and esturaries pose a threat to salmon entering the aforementioned, but salmon and pinnipeds thrived for eons before we modern folks put an additional mortality factor in there (and don't tell me that the creation of hatcheries didn't adapt at least some of the pinnipeds from getting used to large influxes of salmon into bays). Don't get me wrong. I do think that there needs to be some checks and balances. But until we get a handle on the biomechanics of this general ecosystem/environmental change situation, just hold off on culling them. In the mean time, don't let me stop you from reloading.

[SalmonSeason]

Posted by Lost Sailor "Really, now. What exactly is their "business" then? I thought their business was the eating of fish"

True, but the reason the seals/lions come up this far is no different why we as people have fast food rest's. They are lazy and opportunists

There is an ez food source at the falls and in narrow places; dams also. There is an over population and it's MAN's fault. Just like the ignorant so called hunters who chose to side with the anti-hunters and say "We shouldn't bait bears and use dogs for cats" Now there's more sightings and more Federal Gov't Kills

Pop a few seals/lions, Get 'em under control-manage them just like the rest of the critters in our wonderful world...They were put here for OUR use

[Born to be Wild]

Skein, those are sea lions and not harbor seals in that picture.
They are huge, a nuisance, and fish gobbling machines and are a problem as far as I am concerned.
But there is a difference between harbor seals and sea lions!
There is a big difference between Stellar and California sea lions.

WRO,

No, I’m not going to start a new thread.

You make arguments stating that rivers such as the Salmon River and Elk have “huge returns” and “large returns”.
Why don’t you give us the stat’s of how many spawners per mile those rivers have compared to the rivers that have wild fish only and hatchery and wild fish that are included on those charts I posted.
I am not against hatchery Chinook in the small river, the Salmon River.
I don’t know if the Salmon River (Lincoln County) could produce a substantial amount of wild chinook for the pressure it receives these days.
It seems to be doing pretty good status quo but I would and possibly others would like to see the number of wild Chinook spawners per mile and compare with the other rivers.
You do recall you refuted my statement about the health of the Tillamook/Nestucca wild Chinook populations on another thread based on what your friends catch.
But that didn’t quite jive with the graphs I posted showing spawners (per mile) over a 12-14 year period.

You brought up “old history” when bio’s thought that LWD blocked fish passage and thought it was helpful to remove it.
They were wrong and it was corrected when they realized they were wrong.
It was realized that it took away from sanctuaries for the fry and smolt during high water or floods.
There is no one or organization that is perfect or doesn’t make mistakes. ( Not even me)! :grin:
Comparing that mistake with wild/hatchery influence or lack of acceptance they made a mistake is not applicable.

When you read the reports and/or talk to the biologist, you don’t hear that harbor seals are the demise of wild salmonids.
What you hear is the other factors you and I brought up.

I will give credit to the pinnipeds for wiping out our coastal starry flounder fishery in the bays however because they are so overly protected and hang there as they are not very frightened by people anymore.

So why not some ifisher’s contact some pinniped bio’s and ask them what the impacts of current Federal management on them (protection) is believed to be on salmonids.
Again bio’s know a lot more than fishermen want to give credit.
I have been down to Alsea Bay when an ODFW employee was picking up “scat” or whatever he called it but it was stool samples from harbor seals to see what they have been eating.

The info I posted on starry flounder came from bio’s some 12-15 years ago when I was working on my surf fishing book.
They openly admitted that pinniped’s were the problem and I could expel on the issue but I won’t take the time now.
They also told me back then that their hands were tied due to the marine mammal protection act but were hoping that the pinnipeds would at least be allowed to be harassed so as not to set in the bays unbothered for the most part and give the starry’s a chance.

Back in the early to mid 90’s it seemed almost every fisherman I approached blamed the decline in salmonids (on the coast) on seals.
I then asked them why I was able to tag 20 springer’s and 20 coho on the Clackamas River in 1991 (which was the year I learned to catch them).
Why did all those seals miss all those salmon when they were adults or smolts on that year?

I attempted to tell them about the El ‘Nino factor that I was reading about and hearing from bio’s that are retired now and they said; “do you believe that crap”?

I think ocean conditions are more widely accepted now days.

Dano

[FishFood]

Originally posted by Born to be Wild:
Harbor seals are cool, intelligent critters and shooting them is similar to shooting someone's dog.

Dano

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Then call me Chinese, because these are some dogs I'd like to shoot and eat. What would happen if there were thousands of packs of wild dogs roaming around terrorizing everyone. What would we do about them--oh, wait a minute. We kill them by the millions, don't we? Isn't it hilarious that we 'euthanize' (i.e kill) millions of cute dogs and cats every year and we can't touch the damn seals because they're 'wild' and cute? The hypocrisy is palpable.

Steve

[willametteriveroutlaw]

Originally posted by Born to be Wild:
You make arguments stating that rivers such as the Salmon River and Elk have “huge returns” and “large returns”.
Why don’t you give us the stat’s of how many spawners per mile those rivers have compared to the rivers that have wild fish only and hatchery and wild fish that are included on those charts I posted.
I am not against hatchery Chinook in the small river, the Salmon River.
I don’t know if the Salmon River (Lincoln County) could produce a substantial amount of wild chinook for the pressure it receives these days.
It seems to be doing pretty good status quo but I would and possibly others would like to see the number of wild Chinook spawners per mile and compare with the other rivers.
You do recall you refuted my statement about the health of the Tillamook/Nestucca wild Chinook populations on another thread based on what your friends catch.
Dano

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I also said that the habitat is worse and the fishing pressure is much higher. (I'd dig that up if you like) As far as the salmon river goes, I have heard that it gets somewhere in the 3 to 4k wild fish a season on avg with an equal # of hatchery fish. i don't have time to spend looking up spawner #'s because I would rather be fishing with that spare time.

Once again, this subject doesn't belong on this thread.. If you want to beat this horse again.. Start a new thread.

[ 03-16-2004, 08:24 PM: Message edited by: willametteriveroutlaw ]

[BUGLEMAN]

Most of the offending "seals" in the Columbia system are big bull California Sea Lions. Period! A few harbor seals aren’t going to make a difference in any run but a couple Hershel’s go a long way.

Lewis and Clark encountered harbor seals at Celilo falls and the Indians hunted them there. Seals have coexisted with Salmon and humans in the Columbia system for thousands of years. I am unsure of the California Sea Lions though. I know shooting a large percentage of the Bulls would not hurt the reproductive efficiency of the "herd" (what do you call a bunch of them) since they are harum breeders. I also know that shooting the nuisance animals which make up a small percentage of the "herd" would have a negligible impact as far as abundance, but it sure would make our lives a lot easier.

Can anyone train Orcas? They sure made a mess of the Nehalem, I believe, a few years ago.

As far as the commercial fisherman shooting seals I hope they get strung up by thier net weights just like you or I would. Additionally, if possible, thier boats should be siezed as it most likely was used in the commision of fellony.

[ 03-16-2004, 09:14 PM: Message edited by: BUGLEMAN ]

[BUGLEMAN]

I am amazed at all the cheap shots taken at Dan. I realize Dan is a big boy and can handle himself well but this is starting to get annoying to wade through the emotional arguments. He is working hard to educate the fishing public using well documented science. It really shows ones stubborness when they totally ignore the merit of his points just because he makes an argument against someones preconceived notions.

If you are going to refute an argument it would be more productive for all to just stick to the facts.

[ 03-16-2004, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: BUGLEMAN ]

[Full Freezer]

I'm curious, has anybody out there ever eaten seal? What does it taste like? Could it be marketed & sold? Jerky anyone?

[Born to be Wild]

Thanks Bugleman, and that is all I am attempting to do.

Just like sunshinefisherman said;

"Just like any other game animal, sea lions and seals need to be managed scientifically, not emotionally, ie. the recent constitutional restrictions and couger and bear hunting".

For crying out loud, I'm not against you, but for trying to show you that there is more than one problem and you can't simply or shouldn't say eliminate the seals or loggers,etc. so we can have more salmonids!
Unfortunately it isn't that simple and I don't believe that is the answer or problem.

As someone said, be realistic.

[ 03-17-2004, 04:52 AM: Message edited by: Born to be Wild ]

[snit]

Unfortunately, once man is an involved variable related to a species, then man is responsible for all actions caused (or not caused) by that species actions. ie, loggging, dams, sea lions, netting, marine birds (comorants) etc. On the Upper Columbia, there was never a tern/comorant population until 10-12 years ago. Now we have a huge problem, with these birds feeding on smolts. So much so, that now the Dept of Ag does several "shoots" a year to thin these animals out.

I do think that we need to "control" alot of wildlife populations. Sea lions and comorants/terns would be a good start. The studies done on pit tag retrieval of digested smolts is absolutely amazing on the lower Columbia River sand bars. The smolts run a gauntlet of shallow channels just teeming with "protected" terns that have no real predators. Just like adult/returning salmon encounter a large population of sea mammals that don't have any predators.

I do think all species are VERY important to the "chain", but once we start changing how a specific species lives/exists, then we're responsible for managing all the co-existing species also. Kinda like physics..."equal and opposiite re-action" theory.

I was on a chartered salmon trip at Campbell River when the guide started "whackin/stackin" sea lions. He "lost his mind", and stacked up 6 of the big critters each day. He asked us first, and we didn't mind (not our sea lions) him trimming the herd. He's a "top notch" guide who has guided there for over 20 years. He has won many of the Boston Whalers in the "big fish derbys" there, so he's not a flake, but he just can't stand the unchecked sea lion population. And he's risking loosing his whole business and boats by thinning the population.

I've never understood why the natives didn't just sneak down to the Ballard Locks and stick a sliver in 'ol Hershel. That would of been the best way to get rid of the bugger. I really wish the tribes could find a market for sea lions, because the indians are so "untouchable" in the eyes of the Federal Government, they're the only hope we have of a marine mammal harvest operation.

[north coast kook]

If the numbers of sea lions or seals or whatever are healthy, let us hunt them like anything else, *** ? Maybe just let us kill the ones that come up the rivers? It seems silly to compare sealions or seals to dogs. Seals are NOT very cuddly! They may or may not be cute, but as mentioned above, deer are cute too but we still shoot 'em!
-KooK
Now that's interesting, why is it ok for others to type bs, but if I type w t f, I get sensored? Both are abriv. for bad languge(sp?) Whatever.

[ 03-16-2004, 10:45 PM: Message edited by: north coast kook ]

[Mark Mc]

Full Freezer..... Seal meat tastes like a cross between grey whale blubber and a spotted owl.

Regarding the intelligence of sea lions..... they are very, very clever. One story in particular... We had a huge bull following us on the ocean for several hours, picking off every big salmon we hooked (left the small ones alone). Finally we pulled up the lines and ran, at 20 knots, for about 3 miles. Within 10 minutes of putting the lines back in, that very same bull popped his head up behind the boat, as if to say "you can't ditch me."

Also, there is a saying, that you can tell if a sea lion has been shot at by a commercial fisherman by pointing a broomstick or long brush handle at it...the animal will duck underwater.

[LuckyDuck1]

Being the redneck that I am, I'm just gonna say one thing. I have had 2 fish EATEN off of lines that were in my boat in the last two years!!!! That is enough for me to say there is a problem here. The name "SEAlion" and "SEAl" to me means they belong in the SEA!!!! Not 50 to 100 miles up river.

[surejam]

Add another section to the harvest tag .... [img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img]

Salmon ~

Steelhead ~

Sturgeon ~

Halibut ~

SEA LION !!!!


Just a thought

Surejam

[5 Salt]

What is the scientific/measured impact on any given salmon population on a per seal/lion basis?

Are we simply frustrated at seal/lions' immediate area impact on our fishing efforts when they surface in our favorite hole? Or are these bite killers really having a significant impact on Salmon numbers?

I'd wager that damns, commercial fishery, habitat degradation, and pollution are our real enemies here.

Salmon and sea mammals have co-existed for centuries without a real population reduction prior to the introduction of non-native humans (read white man) to the Pacific Northwest fishery.

Regarding cats, was it not Oregon Trail that brought the domesticated cat and other non-native species to region?

I do not recall Lewis and Clark complaining about seal or cats in their travel journals.

[ 03-17-2004, 12:50 AM: Message edited by: charmon ]

[Born to be Wild]

Here’s a mixed bag of info on harbor seals and salmon interactions.

Google search on harbor seals salmon:

“ ... Despite the harbor seals reputation for raiding salmon fishing nets,
recent studies show that salmon is not a main source of its food. ...”

http://ladywildlife.com/animal/harborseal.html

And to make you anti-seal folks happy:

http://www.bluefish.org/devourin.htm

Interesting reading:


Pinniped/salmonid interactions inferred by genetic analysis of salmon remains in harbor seal scat

Problem Statement

The predator/prey relationship between salmon and harbor seals is not well understood, but may have a substantial impact on the recovery of some listed salmon populations.

Critical Factors
• Marine mammals such as harbor seals may be a major source of predation on some salmonid species, including some protected species.
• Genetic data (i.e., DNA) obtained from salmon bones in harbor seal scat can be used to identify prey items eaten.
• Genetic data may also reveal to which Evolutionarily Significant Unit (ESU) the salmon prey items belonged.
• Estimates of predation levels on particular salmonid populations by marine mammals may provide insight into species interactions that could impact the recovery of listed populations.

Status of Research

Scientists at the Northwest Fisheries Science Center (NWFSC) have developed a technique for extracting DNA from salmon bones found in harbor seal scat. This information enables researchers to identify the species of salmon eaten by harbor seals. National Marine Mammal Laboratory (NMML) scientists collect scat samples in the field, sort through the remains, and identify salmonid bones based on gross morphology. These identified bone samples are then transferred to the NWFSC where DNA analyses are carried out to confirm species identifications. Processing of bone samples is ongoing and baseline genetic data will be expanded to enable identification of samples to the level of ESUs.

Future Considerations

The results of this research will be used to study harbor seal feeding habits and to estimate the impact of harbor seal predation on recovering salmon populations. Development of this technique, the ability to identify specific salmon stocks, and the expansion of the genetic database that is used for stock identification will tie into the efforts of other research projects that seek to differentiate salmon stocks from mixed sources (e.g. forensics, mixed-stock fishery analysis, etc.).

Key Players

Conservation Biology (CB) Division, NWFSC
National Marine Mammal Laboratory, NMFS

Contact: Dr. Michael Ford, Director, CB Division (206/860-5612)

NWFSC Issue Paper CB 6106 (HQ ID 311)
last modified 2002-07-29

http://www.nwfsc.noaa.gov/publicatio...les/cb6106.cfm

[Full Freezer]

Based on the reply's above, it may be the SeaLion & not the Seal that are the major concern with predation in the Big C. I doubt that a Seal would be brazen enough to challange a boat full of humans that can't do anything to discourage their pilfering ways.

Since they are obvoiusly not "endangered" anymore, why not open a season on them. They are a predator just like bear, cougar, coyote etc. I don't know about you but I have sure seen more Sealions that all of those other critters COMBINED!

Honestly, what's the big diff with drawing a card to harvest an animal that clearly has outgrown it's federal protection & manage the herd just like every other animal population???

You could charge $300 just to get a ticket in the "Sealion Lottery" & issue maybe 50 or so tags & the F&W dept. would make a killing (or the general fund). These animals are VERY smart & after 1 season would learn some very important lessons.

Any thoughts?