Rainshadow/Loomis

Jennie@ifish · 02-01-2002, 05:10 PM

I have recently moved to the mod board, two very heated posts from a new member who has very strong opinions about rod manufacturers.
I don't know the story, nor will I be involved in this fight.
I was only acting on the method in which this information was delivered.
I have no opinions on who is right or wrong.
All I know is that some things should be kept to e mail.
It is possible to discuss these matters publicly... If there is something the public needs to know as fact, I would like it to be on the board.
If these are heated opinions, and directed personal anger, it probably should be kept to E mail.
Feel free to discuss it here. Please don't call me at home about things that are not my business.
Jen

[ 02-01-2002, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: Jennie@ifish ]

SeanD · 02-01-2002, 10:14 PM

Im sorry you removed the thread. I guess i missed when it went bad. I for one wanted to hear other opinions than the same old loomis isnt what it used to be and rainshadow RX7/IM6 is better. Must have been too nasty i guess.

Catch 22 · 02-02-2002, 05:38 AM

This subject was bound to come up eventually. I also was eager to hear more than one opinion of Loomis/Rainshadow. I've questioned some of the statements made by rodbuilders here in the past. I for one don't understand every aspect of what makes a great rod great. I know scrim plays a big role and that blanks that boast only their modulus don't want to talk about scrim. I wish I knew more so I could make more educated decisions when I part with my cash. I never saw the post, so I have no idea how bad it was getting. However, it's too bad we can't read two opinions instead of one and judge for ourselves.

Jennie@ifish · 02-02-2002, 06:06 AM

You will be able to.
I'm going fishin on the Willie right now.
After the phone call last night, I disabled Lyle's ability to post until things cooled off.
I will let him back on to post after I get back, or I hear from him.
I wrote him a letter.
See ya! I'm off to cast a fish!
J

Bill_Batson · 02-03-2002, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jennie@ifish:
You will be able to.
I'm going fishin on the Willie right now.
After the phone call last night, I disabled Lyle's ability to post until things cooled off.
I will let him back on to post after I get back, or I hear from him.
I wrote him a letter.
See ya! I'm off to cast a fish!
J

Bill_Batson · 02-03-2002, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by paniolo:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jennie@ifish:
You will be able to.
I'm going fishin on the Willie right now.
After the phone call last night, I disabled Lyle's ability to post until things cooled off.
I will let him back on to post after I get back, or I hear from him.
I wrote him a letter.
See ya! I'm off to cast a fish!
J

<hr /></blockquote>I did not view the posts either. Rarely do we get involved in comparisons to other rod blank suppliers. We are fortunate in this country to
have so many gifted manufacturers and suppliers to choose from. Not one of them being the best, just different visions and goals.
"Rainshadow" is just another one of the many choices available. The product line offers the latest in composite materials, with an accent on the combination of aeriel fibre weights, resin systems, and strength to weight issues. Modulus is not a great factor in the quality, and or, durability of a product line. Application, quality control, durability, and value, is what I feel is of the utmost importance.
Again, we are lucky to have such manufacturers and suppliers such as Loomis, Lamiglas, Sage, and Rainshadow here in the Northwest. They each have their specialties, as well as price points.
But to argue and have conflict is absurd. Check out the offerings, value, and warranty policies of all of these companies. And then one can come up with an educated, perfect rod for each of their particular needs, applications, and pocketbook.
There are some awesome choices. Just my opinion.

Gizmo Man · 02-03-2002, 03:50 PM

HI: just the facts...no arguments please.

I just bought a rainshadow blank...1143 and built it into a spinning rod. The guy who sold me the blank (a rod shop in Kalama) told me that it is comparable to the loomis line...better than gl3 but not glx.

Something about 43 million modulus..

I do not understand what that means. I do not know what scrim is...But I do own quite a few loomis as well as lamiglas rods...(about 70 in all of various manufactures).

My favorite boondogging rod is my loomis 1141.

So what I would like to know, and again, just the facts...

Who makes rainshadow?

Does or have any loomis techs been involved in the design and or manufacturing of the rods.

Who supplies the materials to manufacture them?

Are they exactally the same as either loomis or lami?

What type of quality control does rainshadow have?

If my rod breaks in a year or so, will I be able to get an exact match to what I have today...(do we have a low bidder situation where what is bought today will not be available tomorrow?

Any other pertinent information that I should know?

Thanks...any help is appreciated...

Giz...

Jennie@ifish · 02-03-2002, 06:09 PM

Sure would be nice to hear input from all manufacturers involved.
Good questions, Giz.

Jen

Bill_Batson · 02-03-2002, 07:22 PM

First of all, I would like to say that you will be very pleased with your choice of the Rainshadow IST1143F.
I will answer the questions that are not proprietary, such as the raw material supplier, and composition of the material.
The Rainshadow rod blanks are manufactured by Don Mook. He has been in the development and manufacturing of fishing rod blanks since the mid seventies.
These Salmon/Steelhead actions have been developed by Don Mook and Bob Batson.
They are not exact matches to the two manufacturers that you had mentioned. As in, the Rainshadow butts and tips will not match up with another manufacturers butts and tips. Nor are the paterns and mandrel prints the same. Materials are also a bit different, as other USA suppliers are used. You will find very similar actions in the Rainshadow Rod Blanks to those that supply like models.
The rod blanks are inspected at the factory, and then again by the staff at the Rainshadow facility in Sequim. The blanks are flex tested for breakage, checked for straightness, cosmetics flaws, and then put on the flex board to make sure of consistency in action/flex.
The warranty of the Rainshadow rod blanks is a limited lifetime warranty for failure that is due to manufacturers defects. If this would occur, Rainshadow replaces the failed part at no charge.
In a case which failure is due to misuse or accidental breakage, Rainshadow will replace the blank or section at a nominal fee per part.
In the case that you are concerned whether Rainshadow will be around in a year or so, the answer is absolutely yes. The principles of the company have been in this industry for more than thirty years, and have an impeccable reputation for quality control and customer service.
Kindest Regards

Sparkey · 02-03-2002, 07:23 PM

Gizmo Man-
Hopefully I can answer a couple of the questions for you.

Rainshadow is built in the AllStar rod factory but is produced with a differnt graphite with differnt tapers and mandrels. The tapers that Bob Batson (Rainshadow owner) are very very similar to Loomis as Batson used to be a partern with Gary back in the day but Gary knew how to market himself and he became the millionaire. Batson is now in Sequim distributing these rods.

Is a Rainshadow a Loomis?? Well the standard 43 mill seem to be a bit lighter and more sensitive then the GL2 but they are not as responsive, sensitive or as light in the hand as a GL3, IMX, GLX.

For the money, they are better then a GL2. If you are not worried about money though I would stick with GL3's and IMX's.

Rainshadow does produce a flawless blank. Their quality control is excellent and you will find very few in any crooked blanks. Loomis on other hand is notorious for producing and selling crooked blanks.

Rumor has it that Rainshadow is going to produce a 51 mill by the end of the summer. If this rod is as great as I have heard, Loomis could be in some serious hurt (more then they are right now)

TH · 02-03-2002, 07:59 PM

Paniolo thanks for the info.. this is info straight from the horse mouth.. :smile:

I don't want to this to get into a Rainshadow vs. other rod manufactors battle. We build rods from almost every manufacture.
We (TH Custom Rods) have tried to advertise the Rainshadow rods as honestly and accurately as possible, with information gained from our blank distriubtor, our experience as both fisherman and rod builders and our large list of client feedback.

We sell many types of rods, made by many different manufactures.
When we recommned a blank, we look at cost, quality, durability, fishablity, warranty etc. Not just the brand name.. and this is only our recommendation.!

We strongly feel (along with many of our clients and distributor) that the Rainshadow blanks fish as good or better than the other high end rods on the market.
Are they exact? No, then they would be the, "other" rods.. are they comparable yes, better in some ways and not in others and that is how we use the term "quality".

I have been guility of comparing one blank from one manufacture to another.. and that is not fair. For that I apologize and will stop.
We offer a 100% satisfaction guarantee. If a rod we sell does not measure up to your expectations simply return it.
Since we have been offering Rainshadow blank as our line of blanks the response has been overwhelming...... we have yet to hear back from a client that was not happy with the "quality" of rod he/she received.

Thanks for your time..
Please let me know if I can help.

Gizmo Man · 02-03-2002, 08:00 PM

Thanks for the responses...

My ? is about replacing broken pieces in a year or so, if by chance a part breaks...Yesterday I watched a loomis 1141 break about 4" below the ferrel. We managed to land the fish...It broke on a set up with 8# line. Will the rod that I have today have replacement parts? That is to say that what you manufactuer next year is the same as this.

Same suppliers, same material?

Also, can you tell me what the modulus counts are in rs vs. loomis gl2, gl3 and glx?

What is scrim and why is it important, or is it?

If I am going to change brands, would like to know what I am getting into. I would like to build several more as the price seems to be attractive.

Thanks, Giz...

Gizmo Man · 02-04-2002, 06:20 PM

An absence of an answer to these comparison questions are leading me to think that the rainshadow rods are not of the quality that was advertised...is this true or not...help us to understand where the quality is in these rods....just to say they are good and come with a warranty is not sufficient.

Bekley makes the buzz ramsey rods which sell complete for around $70 (on Sale)...these come with warrantees.

Shamano also is making some nice feeling rods that are available in GI Joes and Walmart...List price $64.00. I got one for $52.

Gi Joes is also carrying rods in the $70 range.

So why should we buy rainshadow blanks and componets in the $80 range and have to build them if they are not on the level of the more expensive loomis rods....

Only looking for some help here as I wanted to buy a few more...

Thanks...Giz...

Firedog · 02-04-2002, 06:35 PM

Giz, I had a lot of the same questions about the Rainshadows. I went a head and ordered a blank just so I can see how they compare. Will let you know when I get it. I am hoping they are as good as I ahve heard, will make it a lot cheaper to build the rods i want to get done :smile: I also just got a Loomis 1143 blank, so I need to get to work on it for a float rod. Here is the website for Rainshadow batsonenterprises/Rainshadow rods

[ 02-04-2002, 08:02 PM: Message edited by: firedog ]

TH · 02-04-2002, 06:57 PM

We feel, along with countless customers, that the Rainshadow blanks fish as well or better than many of the, "high end" rods on the market.
I am in a situation where I can fish any rod on the market, and I choose to fish Rainshadow blanks. That's the bottom line.

Bait O' Eggs · 02-05-2002, 10:43 AM

Paniolo
I appreciate you joining in our discussion board. Finding people with knowledge in the fishing industry helps us all.

I recently bought a Rainshadow 1143 blank and tied it up as a spinning rod. I have built quite a few rods and this was far and away the best blank I have ever purchased. Perfectly straight and not a blem in the finish to be found. The rod feels good, but I have yet to catch a fish on it. It has only been to the river once though. I hope to change that this weekend. (translation: the rod will have been to the river twice

)

I have viewed your webpage and see where the rod I purchased was a 43 million modulus. That doesnt mean much to me, except I am told the bigger the number the better the rod. [img]graemlins/1zhelp.gif[/img]

Can you give us in laymans terms a quick overview on what more and less modulus does to a rod. I see above where scrim was mentioned, and I know little to nothing about that also, and would like a simple understanding of it. I would guess it has to do with the weaving of the fibers ??? :whazzup: :whazzup:

I dont expect you to compare or bad mouth your competition. But if you would give us a 4th grade education of rod modulus and scrim it would be appreciated.

I would also like to hear an answer to Gizmos question about getting matching components in the future should I break a tip and only want to replace the tip, will matching components be available in the future.

Thank you.

SailCat · 02-06-2002, 06:06 AM

Hi, Roy-

Since no one else took the bait on this one, I'll give it a go.

I've been building custom rods (them real fancy ones) for nearly 30 years (which doesn't make me wiser, but definitely makes me older), so here's my take on that modulus thingy.

The 'million' part refers to 'pounds per square inch' of pressure applied in manufacturing the raw material. The higher the number, the stiffer the resultant graphite. In theory, stiffer material allows for a blank to be manufactured of a particular action that will be thinner (both in the diameter of the blank itself and in wall thickness). The key phrase is 'of a particular action.'

For instance (again in theory), if two rods of very similar action are produced and one of the two has a markedly higher modulus, the latter would be lighter in the hand and exhibit greater sensitivity.

This theory doesn't always pan out. Those who have been fishing for a while might remember fishing rods made of boron, an extremely stiff fiber. The rods were a dismal failure, so there's more a good rod than stiffness (as well as length, or so I hear).

Double entendres aside, a couple of other notes might be worthwhile in this discussion.

There's no industry standard for ratings. Most manufacturers use 'IM' (6,7,8, Loomis has their own) but there's no relationship one manufacturer to another with regard to modulus and the alphabet ratings.

High-quality, high-modulus rods are wonderful fishing tools. Despite the common 'Limited Lifetime Warranties,' they are not more durable. Sensitivity is a trade-off for durability. I've witnessed on a couple of occasions where steelheaders when snagged would try to yank their lead or lure loose from an obstruction on a chilly morning, resulting in rod explosions. Those things make an interesting sound when they pop, too.

If a high-quality rod takes a good rap on a car door sill or pickup gate, it'll create an invisible crack around the circumference of the blank, resulting in a nice, clean break when pressure is applied. Don't expect any recovery from warranty if your rod breaks in this fashion. Natural graphite breaks are along the longitude, creating multiple shards.

So, that's my humble experience. I'm certainly open to correction if I am dwelling under any misconceptions here.

~MT
The Guide's Forecast

Thumper · 02-06-2002, 06:24 AM

Interesting.....several of Gizmo's and BOE's questions continue to go unanswered by the rod producers.

Jennie@ifish · 02-06-2002, 08:01 AM

I spoke with Bob of Rainshadow, and he said that he will not give out some of this information, and he is sure that Loomis, nor Lami would either.
What information is secret that we are asking?
Jen

SailCat · 02-06-2002, 08:44 AM

Jennie-

When I toured the Loomis manufacturing facility, I was required to sign a non-disclosure agreement (as were all the dealers in our small group) prior to entering.

Perhaps that means I know/saw some secret stuff. I dunno.

I can assure you that they do not align the guides as every custom builder does first and foremost, and that I don't know scrim from scrimshaw.

~MT
The Guide's Forecast

drifter · 02-06-2002, 09:28 AM

Good Topic: I have been looking for the most sensitive Steelhead rod for years. Loomis IMX is still it. But, I would like to hear more.

Jen: Would it be possible to bring LYLE back into the discusssion in some fashion. He had some very interesting information. I would like to hear more about Sage, etc. Thanks, Drifter.

Jennie@ifish · 02-06-2002, 09:33 AM

I invited Lyle back to post, but he would like to remain out of it, from what I can tell.
I wrote to G Loomis and am waiting for a response to some of these questions.
I have heard that it is mostly a rod manufacturers custom to stay out of these discussions, however.
Jen

TH · 02-06-2002, 10:00 AM

I am not a blank manufacture, nor am I a scientist, but do touch and fish a lot of different blanks and rods throughout the year.
We are exteremly happy with the quality of Rainshadow blanks. Very straight, true, small crowns, little or no cosmetic blems or imperfections, light, sensitive.. a great blank.
As for sensitivity, I feel, along with many of our clients that they fish as well or better than many of the highend rods on the market.
The feel and actions of these blanks is incredible.

Warranty.. our business relationship with Batson ent. is great, they are extemeley quick, usually two or three days. Small replacement fee if you break the rod, no charge if it breaks due to manufacture defect.
Rainshadow will be introducing a new line of blanks that will be in the 51 million range.. I can't wait.

Gizmo Man · 02-06-2002, 10:03 AM

Jen and others: thanks for trying to get us all educated. If the questions we are asking infringe on proprietary information then do not post it. I am not asking for information that is a secret as I do not intend to manufacture a blank nor compete in this business.

My concern is from a consumer standpoint. We all know that the major rod companies have spent many years developing, improving and selling a quality product (Sage, Loomis Lamiglass Fenwick to name a few). We know their reputation based upon our own experiences or those of friends.

When a new kid on the block jumps in and says buy me, I am better or cheaper than the leaders and why pay them for their name, then I think they should have to at least tell us why we should trust them.

The argument that I can fish any rod and I choose to fish (x) brand is a great statement if you do not have a financial interest in what you are pushing.

Look around...Enron mean anything to any one?

I also can fish any rod I want. I have a collection of rods that I use in different situations. I keep the best for me and when visitors come to fish with me, I lend them some of my less expensive rods. I trust the company that has won me over by the quality of their product.

I remember when graphite rods came on to the market and Eagle claw made their entry into the market with them. They had a very high failure rate. A good quality built rod at that time for the money. Only problem...they broke at the ferrel.

So, I just bought one of the new kids rods...an 1143. I find it interesting that the new kid is using the same numbering system as one of the largest if not the largest (sorry Lami, do not have sales figures for you and Gary) rod maker in this area.

I see posts comparing the new kid to one of the other manufacturers in this area. It is interesting that the two leading manfgr. have different numbering systems for their products. We know the history of these 2 giants, however, they did not nor do they try to use the same numbers for the different model rods they produce.

So what I see is me going to a Honda dealer and asking the sales rep what to buy. He tells me the Honda is the only way to go. I ask what he is driving and he say a Yugo. Trust me he says. I bought the Honda based upon its history of quality.

So when the customer asks for help to understand why they should change to your product and he is willing to spend money then you should try to help convince them with facts and how and what you have done to prove that your product is worthy.

Giz...

Bill_Batson · 02-06-2002, 12:06 PM

Rod and Blank model numbers are fairly generic. The lettering refers to type, and the numbering sytem is inches and power. As in an IST1143F, IST=Steelhead, 114=inches in length, and 3=power. If two piece, some manufacturers use"F" for ferruled, and others use a -2 for two piece.
This system has been around for many many years. Certainly not exclusive to anybody. Some use feet, and some use inches in their ID system. Either way, it is easy for the consumer to determine the length,power, and number of pieces of a particular blank or rod.
The new guy has only been in the blank and component development & supply business for thirteen years, as well as a custom rod builder on Maui for twenty years before that.
Rainshadow priorities are to offer a quality line of rod blanks.Rainshadow is not a marketing company, as is reflected in the pricing.
The choices are up to the user.

omnivore · 02-06-2002, 04:15 PM

Can I still get a Yugo?