Swing Deep or Not

[PTS]

I had a discussion on Sunday with two guides both of which are great on the Sandy. One favors using tips and presentations that swing near the bottom while the other uses much lighter and shorter tips and is content to swing two feet below the surface.

I have been swinging a 15 foot type 8 and making a presentation that swings the fly deep. So far in January I have only caught a couple steelhead with that presentation. I am not sure that a poor presentation is responsible for my poor success or the fact that I haven't seen any other fisherman (fly of gear) hook a fish any of the days I have been out.

I am fishing water 2 to 6 feet deep and that is what I want to fish. I know that I don't want to put the fly below the fish. Presenting the fly two feet below the surface on those water levels makes sense to me. Therefore, I am making some lighter and shorter 8-9 foot tips to fish for awhile. I am looking for some opinions on this subject.

I pretty much only fish the Sandy and the Clackamas. They have been pretty challenging the last two years (I have fished them since the '80's.) I hope some of you are doing better than I am.

[Slow and Low]

Phil,

I fish 13' of t8 or t11 in most runs. T14 and 17 have their place.

We have swung fish every trip this year (except the day I saw you and Andy), although not red hot, fishing has been pretty consistent.

The answer to your question is...it depends;-)

[PTS]

Thanks for your reply, Sam. since there haven't been any other opinions I guess everyone is satisfied with how they swing. Glad to hear you are having consistent success except for the one day you floated that I did. That is consistent with no one catching a fish when I am on the water. Being limited to fishing from the bank and waiting for a fish to swim by doesn't give that many opportunities.

Anyway, I changed to a shorter lighter tip and am swinging it today on the Clack this morning and the Mollalla this evening with golf inbetween. It will be, like always, an enjoyable day catching or not.

Originally Posted by Slow and Low

Phil,

I fish 13' of t8 or t11 in most runs. T14 and 17 have their place.

We have swung fish every trip this year (except the day I saw you and Andy), although not red hot, fishing has been pretty consistent.

The answer to your question is...it depends;-)

[sothereiwas]

In my perpetual laziness as a swinger I find myself not changing tips. I have finally settled on two. When I'm fishing water with a fairly steady gradient I use a full length Rio 9wt type 6 tip and a lightly weighted fly. When the water has a faster gradient or a fast surface current I use 12' of T14. I have found that with casting angle adjustments I can fish either of these tips with minimal risk of hanging up. I stay away from anything heavier because winter fish are few and far between on the swing so you better enjoy the setup your casting.

That being said last week I stumbled upon some fantastic holding water that's just begging to be skated with a big pink wog once a few more high finners show

[chromeseeker]

Phil,

I'm with Brad on the laziness factor. The two tips I use all winter are a type 6 and a type 8 and my fishing buddy pretty much always uses a type 6 and we've both hooked fish this winter and probably less than you have! You know what type of water to fish, that's obvious. Proper mending, I believe, will get and keep your fly "in the zone" so I don't think it's necessary to strap on a really heavy tip for 90% of the good winter holding water. Most of the time I'd say my fly is anywhere from 1 to 2 feet under the surface and, while wild fish are definitely more aggressive, I've had hatchery brats hit my fly this season when it's no more than a foot under water. I could probably fish a type 6 all season and feel pretty good about it but my rod casts a bit better with the type 8 so that's what I've got on now. I think I read in Dec's book where the type 6 is his main work horse tip and I can't argue with that.

Winter fish are tough, we all know that, but your past success should tell you to keep at it and fish whatever tip you've used in the past. And with more and more wild fish nosing into the rivers over the next few weeks, I'm sure you'll run into a few!

C

[cphatts]

Phil:

I think another important element of your question that could be asked is.... how do those who prefer to fish deep set up their cast and swing so that it swings at a suitable depth? I think someone who changes the angle of their casts, creates slack in their line so the tip can sink, swings with less tension, etc. can get a lighter tip to fish deeper than someone who gives no consideration to these things. Most of the guides I have fished with in the winter usually have some way of manipulating the line to the fly down more, Personally that is the component of winter fishing that I need to work on more

[Slow and Low]

Good point. There has been a lot of press on a sideways presentation into a soft J, versus down and across. The river is going to dictate policy in most cases but water that allows a slow sideways swing seems to be pretty fishy.

People constantly ask why I don't swing the slow down and across swing but I have found that method to be less effective, as well as mending in an effort to do so. Most strikes I see come at 45 degrees just as the J starts to take shape.

[PTS]

Some good stuff here from several excellent spey fishermen. I put on a 10 foot AirFlo poly leader with a 6 inch per second sink rate today for starters. I have been doing a lot of variation in my presentation. I have used different angles in my cast, provided slack or walked down during the swing to vary the depth, used various mends, kept all the running line off the water during the swing, pointed the rod upstream to get a quick tight line and used the J technique to get a swing across, and done some dead drifting. Can't think of any other ways to alter the swing.

Actually, doing all those things keeps the day interesting when no catching is going on. I can fish every day without getting discouraged. When fishing for Winter steel, I think everyone has wondered if there actually are any fish out there to see your fly. I am just a steelhead addict (until I start making trips to central Oregon). Thanks for the replies everyone. Hope to see you on the river.

[Steelie Mike]

"The depth of water in traditional fly fishing for steelhead starts at about knee deep and stretches out to six or eight feet depending on equipment and the speed of current. Now I know that some of you fish deeper water and there are always exceptions to the rule. But the truth is that the highest percentage of fish are caught in 4-6 feet of water." Mike Kenny




Phil, I think that with most steelheaders on the water we have way too much time to think about what they are doing wrong. This is especially so when we are not getting constantly rewarded for our work we are doing right. I do this all the time, especially when I know I am fishing over fish. Still I believe that dredging is not always necessary and only fish heavy tips in water I feel I need to get down right away in. I generally do not fish more them T11 at a length around 13 feet and when I do fish heavy tips I have used both T14 and T16 in shorter lengths generally 6-10 feet. Sure I can dredge a pool of fish or I can fish the way I want and entice the player. Then again, I usually do both.

[ifisherman]

Slow and Low. Can you explain the J style a bit more. How is that different then the slow down and across?

[Slow and Low]

some others could probably say it better than me. the traditional swing involves lots of mending to keep your fly in front or in line with the tip or fly line. Fishing sideways involves a small belly about 3/4 of the way down presenting the fly sideways versus 1/4 or in line. best bet is to not overcast the seam and approach at 90 degrees with a small pull back mend if needed and lead the fly through the run sideways. A small "J" at the lower end of the line will indicate a sideways presentation. Eventually your rod should end below you or toward the bank to maximize the presentation.

It's a lot like the shock loop debate. People catch fish both ways, it's confidence in the presentation that matters most. Also, if you're fishing behind someone, pay attention to their presentation and vary yours to give another look. I learned this from Mike Kinney many years ago and I buy into it. We don't always get first water. Hope that makes sense...if not maybe someone can do a better job of explaining.

SS

[sothereiwas]

The benefits to this type of presentation are that it reduces the currents applied lift to the sink tip and fly. As the fly travels across line becomes more parallel to the current meaning that more lift is applied later in the swing. In a typical run this means that your fly is rising as the water gets shallower closer to shore. In a typical presentation the amount of lift is directly related to the speed of the current and will often lead to the fly sinking as the current slows closer to the bank ending in getting hung up, and often not giving you enough depth in the initial part of the swing. The broadside swing lets the fly travel down and across often giving the fish a longer look at your offering.

The surface currents and depth will dictate casting angle and depth of the mend. Often no mend is needed at all if the currents arent complex and the cast opens up straight.

Its much easier to demonstrate on the water than it is to explain.

[Zugbug66]

I have switched from using t-14 to t-11. I have also tried to focus on casting just past the seam, one hard mend to straighten things out and a controlled slip to gain depth right into the seam. The main reason i switched to lighter tips was to be able focus on the hangdown, without losing flies. I have hooked alot of fish in realy soft, almost frog water, at about 80 degrees. If my tips are too heavy, i just hang up.

It's crazy though, sometimes when i'm doing everything wrong...I get a pull. I have made a horrible cast, put my rod under my arm, pulled the flask from my vest....and before i could even get a taste of that good whiskey....it's fish on. You just never know.
Wayne