welders.... (which one?)

Lepper · 03-06-2004, 07:31 PM

that's the question i'm looking at wire fed welders.. (currently have a big ol' nasty stick welder) But i would like to play with aluminum.. and would like to do it without breaking the bank. Trouble is there are so many different ones out there and since I know NOTHING about wire fed not sure what to look for.. looking at hobarts.. but since all I really want it for is playing with aluminum and since it isn't going to be used for building a boat (yet.. :smile: ) which one you think is the best "bang fer yer buck?"

A craftsman?? hobart? all input appreciated..

Dave

1pump · 03-06-2004, 08:11 PM

I'm partial to Miller, but I'm no expert. They just seem to be a little more user-friendly in my experience.

I'd suggest a spool gun, since aluminum wire has a tendency to jam if you use a machine-mounted feeder.

Lepper · 03-06-2004, 08:20 PM

a spool gun?? fill me in please don't believe I have heard of that before..

d

Lepper · 03-06-2004, 08:30 PM

ah.. gotcha.. the little thingy that feeds the wire..
d

Bait O' Eggs · 03-06-2004, 08:31 PM

I have the millermatic 185 with the spool gun.

It has done me good. Only welder I have ever owned so I cant compare, but I have used buzz box stick welders.

When welding aluminum the machine cant push the rod thru the 10 foot wand like it can steel. The spool gun holds one pound of rod and you are on a 20 foot cord, but the rod is only pushed about 8 or 10 inches because the rod is in your hand.

I can run either stainless or Alum thru my spool gun, and weld steel with the regular wand. Gotta get a second tank of gas because the shielding gas isnt the same for steel and alum/stainless.

Lepper · 03-06-2004, 08:59 PM

Since I have the stick welder I will probably set this up strictly for aluminum..

Say would one of those small 115 volt input/125 amp output.

Get me by? for welding stuff that that is light duty? I know it wouldn't hold anything heavy duty.. that comes later if I learn how to weld with it..
d

Tilla · 03-07-2004, 05:12 AM

To do Aluminum your gonna need some heat, about a Millermatic 250, a spool gun because aluminum wire does not feed well down a cable. I see $2500 to do it right. This is one of those situations where if you cut a corner you may end up unhappy or spending more to do it right the second time.
This is not going to be a 110v unit.

Lepper · 03-07-2004, 04:06 PM

anyone else have some input?
d

1pump · 03-07-2004, 04:07 PM

Beware of those little 120v benchtop welders. Most of those are just wire feed, not true MIG, meaning they don't use a shielding gas. That makes them tough to use, and you don't get nice clean welds. :depressed:

GOT2FISH · 03-07-2004, 04:46 PM

Miller all the way. American made and easy to get parts for,Miller also backs there products. And there coustmer service speaks english. [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

Lepper · 03-07-2004, 06:38 PM

so what makes a true mig welder is that you need shielding gas to weld with then? that what i'm hearing?
d

03-07-2004, 06:41 PM

MIG= Metal Inert Gas

HntnFsh · 03-08-2004, 07:22 AM

How much you wanna bet that you only use the wire feed for alum. They are pretty simple to switch over.Within a few minutes you can switch from 1 to the other.The spool gun is the way to go for aluminum.It might be a good idea to get to whips.1 for alum.1 for steel.Aluminum is a bit tricky to get used to.Find some scrap and practice.
Steel is much easier.For both, a big part of it is getting your temp and wire speed set correct.Using the right type of wire.And right size of wire.Push your wire.Dont pull,like you do stick welding.
A guy I work with was just looking at wire feeds.I have always liked millers.Thats what I have used.But he was telling me about a welder he was looking at in Vanc.That he wish he would of bought.And is in fact talking about trading his Miller in on it.I cant remamber the bran but I'll find out.Way better duty cycle.More features for $2-$3oo more.I think he said it had a 3 year warranty.The place that he was shopping at sells and services all of them and they really recomended this other 1.
I'll see him at work tomorrow or the next day.Get the brand and the shop that was selling it.So I can give you more info.
The other thing that guys talked about was going with 220,instead of 110.I agree.Another guy I work with has a 110 Lincoln that is pretty good on up to about 1/4 in. stuff.But your still limiting yourself.
I'll get back with more info as soon as possible.

James in Idaho · 03-08-2004, 07:38 AM

If I were looking for just aluminum, I'd buy a TIG machine. Spool guns are nice for long welds, but a pain for all the short ones. Last time I looked, there's LOTS of shorts welds in a boat. But I also think I have better control with TIG, and it's pretty easy to set up for stainless.

Miller gets my vote.

[ 03-08-2004, 08:40 AM: Message edited by: James in Idaho ]

1pump · 03-08-2004, 08:17 AM

Yeah, if you look at a welded boat the long hull welds are wire feed, and the little short welds are usually TIG. It's easy to tell the difference. TIG does have much better control, and a TIG welder also doubles as a regular stick welder.
The machines are spendy, though. I bought an inverter type for a machine shop I used to run. It was way cool, only about the size of a PC and it put out 350 amps. By the time we got it set up with a water-cooled torch and all the goodies it was about $4K. Ouch.

Lepper · 03-08-2004, 08:56 AM

4k is a bit much..

I know the little 110 versions are very limiting. But I don't invision welding aluminum over 1/4 inch. This is more of a "lets see how it works and play with it" investment... so i'm thinking maybe a little 110 version is the way for me to go. then if I really get into it invest in a nice larger model.

ahhh!! this is a tough descion..

grrrr
d

Bait O' Eggs · 03-08-2004, 09:05 AM

Be sure and check the duty cycles on those little machines. You can only run it so many minutes before it has to rest for x number of minutes or something like that. I think you have to use wire that has a shielding gas inside the wire, which is expensive wire. The bottle and gas would pay for itself after a while.

I recommend the 220 unit also. I had to rewire my garage for the welder, and while I was at it I wired it for a 220 air compressor also :smile:

Millers are quite easy to operate in my opinion. I am a self taught garage hack on the welder.

I priced some welding classes at the local Comm College and decided I could do a lot of playing around for what they want. :shocked:

I would like to weld up an aluminum boat some day, and my alum welding isnt up to par for boat building. Alum is just tough to weld and requires some practice. You get that bubble going along and it just all disappears in a blink

take the hood off and look at the hole you just made

Ragnar · 03-08-2004, 01:37 PM

I'll echo the things being said here.
Having worked in aluminum welding and fabrication for the last 12 years I feel I might be able to offer a little help. You can take it or leave it.
I'd recomend taking some welding classes first. From there you'll get a better idea of what types of materials you'll want to work with. You will also be able to see just what it takes to make it work. For a small garage sized project where you'll only be welding for maybe a total of half an hour/day. Those smaller bench top varieties are probably fine, but limiting (due to thickness issues- not enough heat).
But if you're going to work on a boat sized project that requires extensive amounts of welding, I'd recommend going industrial sized. Nothing is more frustrating that getting all set up with your pre-fitted parts then have your welder decide to poop out on yoube cause it got too hot or you exceeded it's capabilities.
As far as what type of welder to buy???
MIG and TIG both have their own applications for different reason. One is not necessarily better than the other. It's just that they are used for different reasons.
Water cooled is really nice and a necessity for TIG. The air cooled TIG torches are a joke. I have use some air cooled Millers that were O.K. You can't use them very long though.
I'd say go with Lincoln or Miller.
Think of it from a service stand point. Who can fix this thing if it needs it?
If you are going to buy used? Take it to a welder repair shop and have it thouroughly checked out. Some of those oldie-but goodie welders need some serious attention.
Your welding instructoor would be a great resouce for information regarding what you should get for home use.
Basically, it will boil down to wat your needs are and how much you can afford.
Good luck with that. I hope I was of some help...
Ragnar

Wreckless · 03-08-2004, 02:04 PM

I've been watching this [img]graemlins/lurk.gif[/img] . Thanks to everyone. I've been thinking of getting a small 110v welder just to build "accessories"....fish box, warm water sink, a "fish prep area" in thge back yard, a decoy cart...will the 110v do this?

Hardware · 03-08-2004, 02:16 PM

I have a complete different take. Go to http://www.wirepropellant.com/company.php

These guys make a cheap ($200)kit that will help your 110 mig welder use aluminum spools. Basically it conditions the wire before it hits the new liner. I just ordered one after talking to people that used it. They said it is not a gimmick.

I bought my buddies Hobart 135 all set up for $300, and then if the wire propellant system works, I can weld aluminum for $500... That's cheap.

I love the 135, we just finished a landcruisers frame with it, and it did a nice job.

Anyways, i will know next week how well the wire propellant system works.

Other than that, listen to Ragnar, I just checked out his shop this weekend, and they do some awesome work.

Lepper · 03-08-2004, 05:46 PM

hey hardware.. how do you like that hobart 135? that is actually one of the welders I was looking at. How's it do on the aluminum welding end of things?

Arc burn · 03-08-2004, 08:03 PM

Stay away from 110s you will only end up hating mig machines. The feed mechanism is junk! I have a Millermatic 185 with an aluminum spool gun in my personal shop and use a Millermatic 250 at the shop where I work. The 185 was around $900 about 4 years ago and the spool gun was around $135. I strongly suggest you either take classes or do some reading before taking on a large project. A good book to read is "Boat Building with Aluminum" by Pollard. There are around 54 different alloys of aluminum. You need to be sure and use wire that is compatible with the base metal you will be welding. Most boat manufactures will use two different alloys of aluminum, one for the bottom and a different for the sides. The shielding gas(argon) in MIG serves the same purpose as the flux on a stick rod. But once the mig weld is finished there is no flux to wire brush off. Clean up and Painting then becomes a breeze. Once you get the hang of it, mig welding aluminum is a "kick". I better shut before I end up writing a book. Let me know if I can help in any way.

dahsboard_fisherman · 03-08-2004, 08:11 PM

does anyone still have an old lincoln electric that i have? wire fed with an aluminum spool? its old. got it at a garage sale for 100 bucks.

Hardware · 03-09-2004, 06:33 AM

Lepper,

I love the Hobart 135. Plenty of people say the 110 units suck, but.. Well, this one works pretty sweet in my opinion, even after using some big millermatics. Especially if you won't be welding big material. I won't be welding a lot. Maybe putting some boat trailers and boat anchors together and fixing odd things. That's about it. It has an awesome arc characteristic for steel.

As for aluminum. Yes, everyone is correct about the aluminum feeding problems. You can get around it if you tape a pvc pipe to keep your cables straight, and get a new liner. But who wants to do that?? For small jobs it's probably an ok compromise. I will have more info this weekend after I get my wire propellant system for aluminum welding.

Obviously, if i had $2000 laying around, I would have got a 220 unit with a spool gun. But I'd rather be realistic with what I need out of a unit. Plus it is mobile and stores easily.