What would you do?

Jennie@ifish · 03-03-2004, 08:15 AM

My son, David is pretty much a model student. He has always gotten good citizenship awards, great grades, always involved in band, key clubs, all the scholastic stuff.
He's never gotten in trouble, to my knowledge. Never once been to a Principal's office, or even gotten a tardy slip.
Now, take our family history... I raised my kids, not to say bad words at all. In fact, Andrew said to me, the other day, "Do you remember that as kids we were not even allowed to say the word "butt?" It's true. I don't like that kind of talk in the home. It sounds crude to me, and I believe the more you say that kind of thing, the more it rolls off your tongue easier and easier. Maybe butt was extreme, but it was the way I was raised. Rear ends are rear ends. :smile:

Anyhow... Yesterday, David had an incident. It wasn't good, but anyway...
He has a joking relationship with a friend, and they have a history of rough housing. They try to get a seat on the bus, first, or something.
Well, David, in all of his 15 year old (non)senses, overdid it. He stuck out his leg and tripped his friend. He did not mean for them to go down. He did it very obviously, he said, so that they would notice and stop. It backfired on him, and the friend DID trip, and hit hard. He felt awful about it! :depressed:
There were no hard feelings. The friend got up, and slugged David back, laughing, but the fact remains that David COULD have hurt his friend, and the friend could have been injured, near the moving buses. Not good.
However, the teacher on watch, yelled at him, "THAT WAS A JERK-A S S thing to do!" in front of many, many students and teachers.
This, of course, really embarrassed David. He was already feeling badly, because he had hurt his friend. I think you know the feeling, when you do something stupid.
The principle called this morning, and has David in his office.
I told him, because I know David, that he is probably sitting there, amazed that he's in such a position, and feeling very remorseful. I told the principal that having David in his office and getting talked to, along with being cussed at, in front of the students, might be the strongest punishment they could give out.
The Principal disagreed. He said that he thought a week off of riding the bus may be appropriate.
OK, I'm the kid's Mom. But, I think this is too severe. Besides, David will delight in being driven to school! I will have to pay for the gas. I'm getting punished for this!?!? I don't get it!
I don't think David intended harm. I think punishment should be saved for people with ill intent, rather than thoughtless mistakes, no matter what the consequences could have been.

Am I wrong?

The fact of the matter remains that David and his friend should NOT rough house by the buses. What would you do, if you were in the principal's seat? He says that he has had to call people's Moms to tell them that their son was killed by the buses, and he hopes never to do that, again.
I can understand that, but I cannot seem to agree with him that I should be punished, by having to drive David to school, for this event.

It's difficult for me, because this is my son, so I may be too protective. But, somehow I don't think so. I think the teacher that cussed at David should be held accountable, and I think that David will not be causing trouble again, as it stands.

Jen

[ 03-03-2004, 09:21 AM: Message edited by: Jennie@ifish ]

Thumper · 03-03-2004, 08:23 AM

The principal needs to have more to do. He is over-reacting, and may even be a butt (sorry). So is the teacher. David screwed up --- a little. He has been punished enough.

Cool Texan · 03-03-2004, 08:23 AM

Boys will be boys. First off, I think the teacher should be repremanded for the language in front of the kids. Secondly, I think that banning him from the bus for a week is just crazy. At most, put him in detention for one day (do they still do that?). Part of being a guy is rough-housing with friends and occassionally going too far. We've all done it, and as long as he has realized that he could have hurt his friend, the punishment should be light at best.

Good luck!

Otolith · 03-03-2004, 08:26 AM

The principal and the teacher are BUTT holes. Nothing you can do about it. Drive your good kid -who does things that all kids do (like rough housing on/by the bus)- to school and be happy knowing he will not likely grow up to be a BUTT hole like those two.

Oh, and ask the principal for the name of that student that was killed by a bus, whose parent he had to call. "It was so long ago I don't really..." What a BUTT hole.

Straydog · 03-03-2004, 08:27 AM

I think the Principal is over reacting based on the history you have provided. David needs to learn to stop and think at times as we all do but a week off the bus for a first time offense of this nature for a 15 year old is counter productive, in my opinion.

As for holding the teacher accountable, I think the standards you put forth should apply to all involved and "punishment should be saved for people with ill intent, rather than thoughtless mistakes, no matter what the consequences could have been."

You can indeed be offended by the language and call the teacher's reaction boorish, but you can not call his statement inaccurate.

Just like David, teachers are human. After a long day of riding herd on a whole lot of very active kids, an angry statement partially fueled by fear of harm coming to a kid, should be allowed a little slack as well. The teacher should be reminded that is an innapropriate way to talk to anyone and it should be left at that.

WheresMyBobber · 03-03-2004, 08:28 AM

I agree with Thumper, he's learned his lesson but the teacher should not have dealt with it the way he/she did.

Boys will be boys and we all learn our lessons one way or another. I don't think you'll have to worry about David doing this again.

Rauly · 03-03-2004, 08:31 AM

Kids will be kids. They do stupid things sometimes. We all do. Some times there are consequenses. I don't think a week loss of bus priveledges is appropriate but a good stern talking to. I may be alittle bias because I have met David but, thats my take on it.

You forgot to ask one very important question to the principle. "Do you condone the language that the teacher used?" We know the answer. Maybe the teacher needs to be on bus duty until he/she can learn to use appropriate language.

Just a thought.

Stewart

[ 03-03-2004, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: Rauly ]

Jennie@ifish · 03-03-2004, 08:36 AM

Latest phone call:
Principal says he called in other students who had witnessed the account.
He says he is going to do nothing, now.
He says he is convinced it won't happen again.
He is going to take care of the teacher who thoughtlessly spewed gutter language. I told him that the teacher probably saw potential danger, and over reacted and to not be too harsh.
I'm happy. David will get a strict talking to, when he gets home, about the event, but I am VERY sure it won't happen again, already. He is probably horrified that he spent the morning in the P. office, I'm sure.
That just isn't where David hangs out. :smile:

Thank you, God.

I was all hyped up over this, and now I'm calming. :smile: I've got to learn who is in control, and it's not me! :smile:
Jen

northriver1 · 03-03-2004, 08:37 AM

Maybe the school principal and teacher did not handel the situation well in your eyes but the fact of the matter is they did not trip the student. Your son will see how you are reacting pointing to others when in fact your son brought this on himself. Maybe that should be the life learning experience we are dealing with.

Birdnest · 03-03-2004, 08:38 AM

First of all, if I had a 15 year old son and the worst thing he'd done was trip a friend, I would stop and thank the good Lord for the blessings.

Everyday people participate in actions that go beyond their intentions and people get hurt, property gets damaged, or worse. Regardless of their intention they are culpable for their actions. The word involuntary comes to mind, which can still land somebody in plenty of hot water.

Whether or not you completely agree with the principal's decision, you should consider supporting it in front of your son. You not agreeing with it only further confuses the situation for your son.

Concerning how this affects you, gas, time, etc. As long as you have a minor, you are responsible to a reasonable degree.

I don't think this should be about whether or not the punishment was just, but rather how you two deal with the consequences of his actions.

Just my .02

Respectfully,

Joe

Jennie@ifish · 03-03-2004, 08:42 AM

I don't think you need to worry about that, to me. :smile: I am always the first to point out the causes of situations.
This one would be David.
He knows it, and he knows that I do not stand for favoritism in any way. My kid, or not.
I will do them no favors by protecting them in that way.
I will, however, see that matters are handled in a fair and appropriate way.
Case closed, thank God!
Thank you for all of your very fair and intelligent opinions. Raising teenagers is not an easy chore! :smile:
Jen

[ 03-03-2004, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: Jennie@ifish ]

northriver1 · 03-03-2004, 09:00 AM

Isn't it interesting how changing a few written words can greatly change the picture one is trying to paint. An artform I have not mastered.

northriver1 · 03-03-2004, 09:02 AM

Opps

[ 03-03-2004, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: northriver1 ]

Grantspastor · 03-03-2004, 09:04 AM

I think you have the situation pegged right. Principal and teacher could have done better.

GOT2FISH · 03-03-2004, 09:26 AM

I'm SORRY but I think talking to the teacher is not enough. If you went to all the hard work to teach your children not to use profain languge you should at the very least recive an appoliage from the teacher and so should David. I do belive children should be worned of the danger but I DONT BELIVE THEY NEED TO BE CURSED AT. What kinda role model is this teacher and how is he/she teaching how adults act in the real world.

Jennie@ifish · 03-03-2004, 10:10 AM

Very sad to say, but this is the real world. I tend to live in a fantasy world, here at home, and try to protect from a lot. But if you are going to send your kids to a public school, look out! I walked in one day and could NOT believe the language being used! And teachers just walk by and say nothing!
I'm sure they heard what I heard and they just walk by! I couldn't believe it!
It's the way it is, though.
Jen

Pete · 03-03-2004, 10:14 AM

GOT2FISH, my thoughts, too. Where's the public apology from the teacher? Yes is sounds like a bad situation and David most likely learned his lesson and will think twice before doing it again. But the reactions of the principle and teacher don't seem appropriate at all!

CATCH AND EAT · 03-03-2004, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pete:
GOT2FISH, my thoughts, too. Where's the public apology from the teacher? Yes is sounds like a bad situation and David most likely learned his lesson and will think twice before doing it again. But the reactions of the principle and teacher don't seem appropriate at all!

BINGO Pete! [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] It is unfortunate that David lost valuable class time for such a pathetic stunt. David does deserve to be punished in some way though. Perhaps he can bake you some cookies Jen. That just might help it sink in as to the scope of his transgressions.

One thing to consider though in defense of the school is what if his friend has busted a tooth or hand or arm. Would this still be as funny? [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] But still the way I look at it is NO HARM NO FOUL. Let it go.

The teacher on the other hand...... [img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img]

[ 03-03-2004, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: CATCH AND EAT ]

OceanBlue · 03-03-2004, 10:35 AM

Jennie - reminds me of the time that my (good son who'd never been in trouble with an adult, much less another kid in his life) threw a penny out of the school bus window and it hit a pick-up truck windshield.

The driver of the truck and his passenger chased down the school bus, forced the driver to pull over and stop, boarded the bus and began to spew all kinds of filthy language at these middle school kids, including death threats.

Needless to say, I received a phone call from the principal's office and the school's insurance adjuster. Because of my son's previous track record, we had no further trouble. His punishment was to pay for the cracked windshield on the pick-up truck - which never happened because the driver refused to produce evidence that it was cracked and needed to be replaced. He wanted me to hand over $250 cash.

Anyway, long story short, the boy received his punishment long before I handed down the sentence of having to pay for the windshield. I think he still cringes when he sees a pick-up of the same description :shocked:

Straydog · 03-03-2004, 10:52 AM

Whoa!! Ocean Blue, your story hit a nerve with me!!

Any bus driver that pulls over and lets a stranger on a bus for any reason when my kid is under their supervision is in for a long ugly trip through "no-no" land in a big way!! [img]graemlins/eek13.gif[/img]

Straydog · 03-03-2004, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jennie@ifish:
But if you are going to send your kids to a public school, look out! I walked in one day and could NOT believe the language being used! And teachers just walk by and say nothing!
I'm sure they heard what I heard and they just walk by! I couldn't believe it!
It's the way it is, though.
Jen

Jen,

Please, don't think that this is the way it is in all public schools and don't think this is neccesarily unique to public schools.

I can take you to many schools in my area where indeed teachers will reprimand those using inappropriate language. Granted, I can also show you some where they will not.

There are a lot of variances between schools and in fact, between teachers within an individual school.

I get antsy when I read blanket statements such as the one you used.

:smile:

[ 03-03-2004, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

OceanBlue · 03-03-2004, 11:13 PM

Stray, the driver had 2 options, stop the bus or run over the guy. As for "letting" him board the bus, the driver exited the bus to speak with him when the pick-up driver shoved past her onto the bus. To her credit, she was able to talk the guy (with the help of the guy's passenger) back off the bus.

Straydog · 03-03-2004, 11:21 PM

Ocean blue,

Ok, different deal with the added details, thanks.

Our bus drivers all have radio equiped buses. I would hope in a similar circumstanc they would stop the bus to avoid running over anyone but keep the door shut and radio for police assistance.

Speaking of stupid acts, what, if anything, happened to the guy that forced the bus to stop???

[ 03-03-2004, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

Jennie@ifish · 03-03-2004, 11:29 PM

Yip, that's me. The old "blanket statement" girl.
I get antsy when I read any of your statements! :smile:
Jen

OceanBlue · 03-03-2004, 11:40 PM

Stray - nothing happened to him that we know of - I'm hoping Darwin or Karma will take care of that individual. A police report was filed (by the bus driver and by me) He had submitted a claim to the insurance adjuster using estimates from 2 windshield repair shops. The adjuster submitted them to me. In checking out the address he gave to the shops for the estimate, I discovered it was a vacant house. I don't know what this guy's deal was and now even wonder if that penny actually hit the windshield. My ex contacted the guy and tried to arrange a meet to see the windshield, but the guy became abusive and refused. My ex told him what he could do with his estimates in that case and bade him a good day.

Fortunately, the insurance adjuster protected our personal information from the claimant and I never had to deal with him directly. I was frightened of him based on the accounts from the children (other kids in the neighborhood corroborated my son's account of what happened).

Thankfully, that incident is some 4 years in our past and my son has never thrown anything out the window of a vehicle again!

LQQKASTAR · 03-03-2004, 11:56 PM

[ 03-05-2004, 03:57 AM: Message edited by: LQQKASTAR ]

3riversBob · 03-04-2004, 07:48 AM

David sounds like a great kid. We need more like them and more parents that instill values such as you have Jennie with the 0 tolerance on language. Having said that, I also have to say that as a former school bus driver and having put together a school bus safety program for the school district, when it comes to safety on a school bus there must be 0 tolerance as well. I looked in my rear view one afternoon and saw two boys (good boys) chasing each other down the aisle. If I had hit my brakes they would have been propelled through the windshield. I could only slow the bus. Was I mad at that point? No! I was scared to death at what could have happened to those boys. When I talked to the school Principal he wanted to do the same as yours did and put the boys off the bus for a week. I feel as you do that that only puts a burden on the parent and doesn't really teach the student a lesson. I asked that they not be put off the bus but instead have to sit in the front with me for a week so that we could talk as we drove home. Kids are not stupid and most often as not, talking to them on a mature level they will understand and learn. I never had a problem with either boy again. They had never considered the consequences of their actions. After talking with them they did understand and other kids on the bus seeing the event and the aftermath also were affected. As part of my safety course that I put together I went into each classroom (K-8) and talked safety with the kids. I believe the kids responded and learned more than the teachers did. As for the potty mouth teacher she/he needs to addressed and held accountable as well. At the very least an apology and maybe an explanation to David. (You scared the dickens out me, David, I'm sorry for my languange that wasn't right for me.)

You're right Jennie, raising teens is quite a challenge, I raised three and now on my fourth. It sounds like you are on the right track however. And with freinds like you have here (ifish)you always have someone to ask for advice.

Thanks,
Bob

Barviewrocks · 03-04-2004, 09:35 AM

Most schools have a "no tolerance" policy with regard to aggressive acts. Intentionally tripping someone usually fits in this category regardless of past history. And, there is generally a predetermined set of consequences associated with infractions. Sounds like the local school is making it up as things happen. I think it is reasonable to have a consequence to the actions in order to maintain some sense of "no tolerance" for actions of any aggression.

As far as the teacher goes, there should be equal "no tolerance" for non professional behavior and verbal abuse. A public appology to all involved would be an appropriate action.

Jennie@ifish · 03-04-2004, 09:47 AM

I got a phone call last night from the bus driver involved.
Seems the teacher that called David the names, asked the bus driver to write him up.
The bus driver refused, in this situation.
I don't know why, really. He didn't explain. However, he did say that he regularly talks to the kids about safety.
However, I was proud as a peach when he told me that David and Andrew have never given him an ounce of trouble, and he enjoys them a bunch. He went on and on about what nice kids they were, and I, of course, ate it up. No parent can hear that often enough for all of our work and effort! I wish I would have tape recorded him. It made me feel all better. :smile:
Anyhow, I talked to David, and he realizes that his "joke" could have been a serious mistake that could have resulted in a devastating accident.
The bus driver said that after he tripped the friend, and went to get on the bus, he knew David felt awful He said he thought that he saw his eyes well up a bit.
I've done dumb things before, and I've felt that reaction. I can relate!
Anyhow, thanks again, guys and gals. It takes a village! :smile:

Straydog · 03-04-2004, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barviewrocks:

As far as the teacher goes, there should be equal "no tolerance" for non professional behavior and verbal abuse. A public appology to all involved would be an appropriate action.

I think an apology and explanation that it is was likely the heat of the moment that led to the teachers statement is appropriate but, "verbal abuse???

In my opinion that is an overused buzz phrase to begin with but holy cow, the guy was refering to the action of tripping another kid. He did not make an attack on David, rather on David's actions.

I find it stretching a whole lot to say this is "abuse".

Further, if we are going to get technical, maybe he as actually saying it was a dumb "donkey like" thing to do..........? You see the word Ass in the Bible a lot.

Me thinks the "politically correct" garbage often blamed on one side of the politcal spectrum might be prevelant on both sides, in reality.

Pete · 03-04-2004, 12:32 PM

Dog, the teacher was out of line. Why drag on the discussion? What does "political correctness" have to do with being civil? Let it go!

dampainter · 03-04-2004, 04:56 PM

sounds like overexageration by all parties but with reason....principal and teacher did/does not want any kind of messing around by or on the busses, but also should take a long hard look at who they are dealing with....good student or bad student... take a deeeep breath this will pass and sounds like it has. Be very happy that this is about the most trouble your kid has gotten into....it could be so much worse.

Straydog · 03-04-2004, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pete:
Dog, the teacher was out of line.

Pete,

That is why I said

Quote:

I think an apology and explanation that it is was likely the heat of the moment that led to the teachers statement is appropriate......

For the sake of letting it go I will accept your questions as rhetorical.

roadsend · 03-06-2004, 07:33 AM

"As far as the teacher goes, there should be equal "no tolerance" for non professional behavior and verbal abuse. A public appology to all involved would be an appropriate action."

Who endangered the safety of another student?

Who reacted to it vigorously?

Although I do not advocate this course of action, the safest thing professionally for the teacher to have done would have been to have "not seen" the tripping incident.

No wonder that some teachers "don't hear" the filthy language many students use in school hallways and I don't mean an adjective like "jerk-assed" which was used to describe the action of the offending student, not the student himself.

If parents and others are not going to back-up teachers who try to enforce order, safety, and discipline in the schools, the teachers would be better off to stay in their classrooms and wear blinders and earplugs.

Lepper · 03-06-2004, 08:59 AM

aren't schools so much fun?

I think in wonderful today's society they are eager to punish. and unfortunatly some of the kids they punish all they needed was a talking to.

If the principal was to force the incident all you would probably have to tell him is that you wanted it a different way and if they wouldn't comply you were going to get a midiator. course then they wouldn't like you at all..

schools are interesting... that's for sure..
d

HOGTIDE · 03-06-2004, 09:11 AM

Well....I am a teacher. I don't believe I have ever used profanity referring to a student. I do still remember my highschool baseball coach calling me a "**** " one time. A stupid word...but I still remember it more than 30 years later! The greatest consequence was probably that I lost respect for him!

Of course...defending teachers, in school, in general..... EVERYONE wants very strict rules and tough consequences for "these kids nowadays", But, no one EVER wants these rules and consequences applied to their own child. (*not directed at your specific situation here, Jennie)

I teach in a rather low income HS of about 1,000 kids. The profanities fly frequently. I actively correct and reprimand these students. One bad word in my classroom gets you booted out. When we do formally discipline students for such acts, the parents act like we are crazy, outraged, threatening and pointing fingers at our discipline system....and usually swearing at us !

David sounds like a very nice boy who goofed up. The teacher said something stupid. The principal is trying to be tough. I say support the school...for David's sake. A good kid will be just be better as a result of a trial.

....and yes, we would be glad to receive David as a transfer at St. Helens High School. We could use the infusion of good principles in our school!

Silver Eagle · 03-07-2004, 07:06 PM

I don't have kids in school anymore, and from what I've seen one of the biggest problems is the teachers and principals have there hands tied as to what if anything they can do, this has caused a real lack of responsibility on there parts, we the parents have taken all there abilities to do anything to stop the things your talking about lauguage, physical, as well as mental (peer pressure) you had a situation that in your eyes was OK, they looked at it from there side of the fence. I'm glad it came out OK, but in a bigger School or district it might not have been solved so easy. Glad it was...............Ray

Hawg Caller · 03-08-2004, 04:23 PM

God made boys to be boys...sounds like the principal is trying to make him a girl. I think the principal is WAY over reacting,sounds like the incident was just kids being what there supposed to be ! my .02

TheCamel · 03-08-2004, 06:53 PM

Sounds to me, between the Principal, Teacher, and School Bus Driver.........the one exhibiting the most wisdom was the driver. Maybe the Principal and Teacher should be made to ride up front on the bus for a week. Some of that balanced thinking might rub off!

TheCamel