Question about Winter Run Steelhead Fly Fishing Challenge – 2009/2010

[Maupinate]

Just a couple of quick question here.
Why isn't an unweighted fly tied on a hook with an offset eye, a jig hook as you call it,not allowed but a weighted glo-bug tied on a bait hook is?
The fly tied on the "jig" hook would be allowed in the fly only area of the N.Umpqua but the glo-bug would not, correct|?

[AndyK]

Originally Posted by Maupinate

Just a couple of quick question here.
Why isn't an unweighted fly tied on a hook with an offset eye, a jig hook as you call it,not allowed but a weighted glo-bug tied on a bait hook is?
The fly tied on the "jig" hook would be allowed in the fly only area of the N.Umpqua but the glo-bug would not, correct|?

This question has come up before:
http://www.ifish.net/board/showthrea...light=jig+hook

When the IGFA, Oregon Dept of Fish and Wildlife and the Washington Dept of Fish and Wildlife allow jigs for fly fishing, then I will allow them in this competition.

[Gizmo Man]

To answer your question, Andy is of the believe that if a fly is tied on a hook that is bent at a 90 degree angle it is a jig. Although this topic has been discussed at length with most knowledgeable tiers agreeing that to be a jig, the hook has to have a molded weight on the hook.

Instead of bending a fly hook to a 90 degree angle, I tied some flies on a "jig hook" when after fishing with a friend who was bobber and jig fishing pulled 2- 12 # steelhead out behind where I had just fly fished with no success.

I caught several steelhead on my adapted fly on a jig hook and when fishing with Andy several times, I ran into him and PTS in the parking lot at daybreak park and he questioned my use of this fly as legal fly fishing.

At the time he was questioning my "jig fly" he was using I believe a glow bug tied on a hook drift fisherman use with split shot above his offering.

I pointed out the fact that my jig fly could be fished in all legal water as there is no lead or weight external to the fly which is prohibited in fly fishing water. While his added split shot above the fly would not be permitted and is illegal to use in fly only water.

Since then, he has sponsored these contests with the rules he has chosen. It's his contest and his rules.

So if you don't want to play, don't.

Hopefully. in my opinion, someday Andy will understand the difference between a real jig hook, one with lead poured on the hook and a hook bent at a 90 degree angle whether the angler chooses to try to bend a conventional fly hook 90 degrees or grabs one out of a box labeled "jig hooks".

End of story. This is not to criticize Andy's contests but to put to rest the why behind his rules on this subject as it seems to come up every year he does this.

Keep up the good work on the contests Andy as they are popular and other event sponsors have stopped other events due to criticism and bickering. Your events have neither other than the jig hook thing.

Giz...(former original moderator of the fly bb.)

[PTS]

Hi Giz, I hope to see you on the river again this year. I fish it hard through December until the Sandy and Clack get fish. Let's hope for a decent run which hasn't been the case recently.

I consider Winter steel to be the best challenge on the fly. Not being a "purist" I put "flies" on the end of my tippet that don't meet the definition of a fly. Consequently, a good number of the Winter steelhead I catch are not eligible for entry into the challenge. I am much more interested in catching good numbers of Winter steelhead than entering fish in the challenge and enjoy experimenting with various "flies" to find the killer Winter steel attractor.

However, I swing enough legitimate flies to usually submit some entries as long as Andy is around to take a picture since I don't even bother to carry a camera. The nice 36 inch native I caught last year on a pink leech missed winning by 1/2 inch.

I appreciate Andy sponsoring the various challenges. I hope people note that the monthly winners are determined by a drawing rather than the largest fish. The objective of that change was to encourage entrants to post pictures. In the past, a lot of nice Winter steel pics were probably not posted if there was already a fish entered that was bigger. Good luck to everyone and let us see those pics.

[chromeseeker]

Giz,

Regarding tying flies on a jig hook, are you swinging these or fishing these under an indicator? I'm curious as to why they may be more successful tied that way.

IMHO, there shouldn't be any reason why catching fish on flies tied on a jig hook shouldn't be allowed in this contest if others are allowed to used glo bugs and such. Doesn't really make any sense.

Anyhow, let's hope the winter return of fish is a big as the summer return!

Phil, hope to see you on the EFL. Try to save one or two for me!

C

[Gizmo Man]

CS: the fly was a jig hook with two chain eyes tied on for minimal wt to sink it under a strike indicator. It worked for a few fish, but I was taught a better system that does what we all are seeking...the fish on the end of a fly rod.

Phil: thanks for responding.

In the early days of the fly bb we had several activities that the folks like that went away after a few tries (the fly swaps, greenbutts meetings at a local pub to name just a couple).

Andy's had the longest and well participated contests and he can set the rules as he sees fit and those who don't like the rules need not to sign up. It's great to see it continue and I have entered up to last year due to health reasons.



But, I am waiting for Andy to modify this one: "Entries do not need to disclose the location where the steelhead was caught in the post. However, the sponsors must be advised of the location to determine the qualification of the entry. Locations will not be disclosed on the board except for the winning entries when announced."

I am waiting to see if you have to take the sponsor to the exact spot where the fish was caught so he can verify there is enough water for him to wade. Since you have to take a pic, submit it within 3 days and now tell him where you caught it...Andy will you pay for the unguided, guided trip???? this is just a joke.


Anyway, I am hoping to get out this winter.

I have actually been out for 2 short trips earlier this week and caught a 16" wild steelhead that was chrome bright. Unfortunately, it was not on a fly rod. Due to the heart surgery I am not suppost to move my arms above my head or sideways.


Have to thank rowmanholiday (Greg) for babysitting me on the river.


But Phil, I am like you, it's the fight and exploring different ways to entice the fish into taking my offering that I am after. I am sure that's how all these different ways to fly fish came about...because someone tried something different and it worked.

Heck, I have been caught by Rob Allan, walking a wiggle wart down the river on a 15' spey rod (after fly fishing it to see if I missed a fish) when I was president of the Clark Skam. Flyfishers. Rob had fun telling the club about that one.


For you young guys, get out and go fishing when you can. If in doubt as to whether you should go fishing or do chores, go fishing. When it's your turn to get sick, you will have plenty of time to do the chores.

Giz...

[AndyK]

Gizmo and PTS, thanks for the kind words.

Contrary to the opinion of some, I do not “invent” rules for the fly competitions. I try to follow the “rules” of the IGFA and state law. Sometimes I divert from those rules because of what I consider to be common sense and popular fly-fishing “philosophy”. State law says no added weight on the line, but I allow split shot because most fly fishermen use them; the IGFA is silent on the use of split shot, but IGFA rules state “The major criterion in casting is that the weight of the line must carry the fly rather than the weight of the fly carrying the line. “

State laws prohibit jigs by prohibiting hooks with molted lead heads. There is no mention of hooks with the shanks bent 90 degrees. However, first bite jigs (marketed as jigs) do not have a molded lead head but a bead attached to a wire connected to the hook shank. I see a short, slippery slope if jig hooks were allowed. A bead or barbell eyes can be easily added to a jig hook and then there is no difference with a jig. I’m not going there.

Like others have said, if you are philosophically offended by the rules, don’t play. I don’t limit the competition to swinging flies or floating flies only. I see room for everyone who wants to fly fish.

Originally Posted by Gizmo Man

Keep up the good work on the contests Andy as they are popular and other event sponsors have stopped other events due to criticism and bickering. Your events have neither other than the jig hook thing.)

As I have gotten older, I try to follow the policy: If you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all (although I am not always successful).

[Gizmo Man]

Originally Posted by AndyK

Gizmo and PTS, thanks for the kind words.

Contrary to the opinion of some, I do not “invent” rules for the fly competitions. I try to follow the “rules” of the IGFA and state law. Sometimes I divert from those rules because of what I consider to be common sense and popular fly-fishing “philosophy”. State law says no added weight on the line, but I allow split shot because most fly fishermen use them; the IGFA is silent on the use of split shot, but IGFA rules state “The major criterion in casting is that the weight of the line must carry the fly rather than the weight of the fly carrying the line. “

State laws prohibit jigs by prohibiting hooks with molted lead heads. There is no mention of hooks with the shanks bent 90 degrees. However, first bite jigs (marketed as jigs) do not have a molded lead head but a bead attached to a wire connected to the hook shank. I see a short, slippery slope if jig hooks were allowed. A bead or barbell eyes can be easily added to a jig hook and then there is no difference with a jig. I’m not going there.

Like others have said, if you are philosophically offended by the rules, don’t play. I don’t limit the competition to swinging flies or floating flies only. I see room for everyone who wants to fly fish.



As I have gotten older, I try to follow the policy: If you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all (although I am not always successful).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmo Man
Keep up the good work on the contests Andy as they are popular and other event sponsors have stopped other events due to criticism and bickering. Your events have neither other than the jig hook thing.)

As I have gotten older, I try to follow the policy: If you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all (although I am not always successful).





Andy: I am confused. Are you saying I am saying something that is not nice and should say nothing?

Please clarify since I feel I have been very supportive of your rules.

Giz....

[Newbs]

Excelent contest. Well planned. Well run. Will be fun to watch it over the next few months. I just hope I have a decent entry.

Stop your jawen boys and get out there...

[AndyK]

Originally Posted by Gizmo Man

Andy: I am confused. Are you saying I am saying something that is not nice and should say nothing?

Please clarify since I feel I have been very supportive of your rules.

Giz....

other event sponsors have stopped other events due to criticism and bickering.

Not at all. What I am saying that I try not to get into a bickering match with other people over the competitions (or other matters on Ifish).

Absolutely nothing was directed at you.

[Gizmo Man]

Originally Posted by AndyK

Not at all. What I am saying that I try not to get into a bickering match with other people over the competitions (or other matters on Ifish).

Absolutely nothing was directed at you.

Andy: thanks for clearing that up.

Hope to see you on the river this year.

Giz...