Can you be "Over PAtriotic"?

2LEYS · 01-19-2004, 07:27 PM

NEW YORK � Gwyneth Paltrow (search) is "Shakespeare Outta Love" with America.

And "blimey" � saying her homeland is too dangerous and has a "weird, over-patriotic atmosphere," she's raising her new baby in London. The Oscar-winning actress lives there with her husband, Brit Chris Martin (search) of Coldplay.

Did Madonna (search) have anything to do with this?

Paltrow says, "I worry about bringing up a child in America. At the moment there's a weird, over-patriotic atmosphere over there, like, 'We're No. 1 and the rest of the world doesn't matter.'"

No. 1 is certainly something Paltrow hasn't seen at the box office in quite a while. Her alleged comedy, "View From the Top," was a huge bomb last year.

And her recent portrayal of Sylvia Plath in the downbeat "Sylvia" failed to excite audiences or get award nominations from the Golden Globes or Screen Actors Guild.

Is she living in exile?

"It's pretty amazing how the anti-American sentiment is in a lot of ways," she says of the U.K. "They call Tony Blair the vice president."

All of this according to the World Entertainment News Network. She also voiced concern about guns in American schools.

Paltrow did say she loves America and completely stands behind the country. She's just doing it from another one, I guess. Will all of this hurt her career? She'll have to resurrect it first, then we'll see.

STGRule · 01-19-2004, 07:41 PM

You read that stuff??? [img]graemlins/eek13.gif[/img]

2LEYS · 01-19-2004, 07:52 PM

Just saw a clip how she was leaving the country because we are "Over Patriotic", I normaly dont' read celebrity crap.

1pump · 01-19-2004, 11:42 PM

At first glance I'd say some journalist did a little spin and maybe some creative editing.
Wouldn't be the first time it happened.

People have their own reasons for living where they live, so no skin off my arse.

If patriotism leads to blind faith or ultra-nationalism then it's going too far, IMHO.

GOT2FISH · 01-19-2004, 11:47 PM

Well you know what they say. If you dont like the weather MOVE.

StinkyH · 01-20-2004, 12:07 AM

What I think is funny is that celebrities get quoted and put in the paper like they have figured out so much about life when they make pretend for a living. How does that make them some sort of guru on life? Especially those that make the big $$$ - they don't live in reality so how can they give advice on how to live?

Some hollywood schmuck - "I hate the corporate machine!!! I made 20 mil on my last flick? Sweeet!"

StinkyH

HeavyMetal BankFisherman · 01-20-2004, 06:48 AM

No you can not be too patriotic.

Good riddance to Gwyneth Paltrow. Whoever the heck she is. I don't follow any of the ridiculous pop culture. Why does anyone cares about what these pathetic, hypocritical, so called celebrities think, say or do.

Hopefully more of them will follow suit.

garyk · 01-20-2004, 10:37 AM

Herman Goebels and the National Socialist Party would agree there's no limit to nationalistic patriotism, in fact it's every citizen's most important duty - 'Deutchland Uber Alles'.

We have a lot to learn from history.

lost_sailor · 01-20-2004, 03:12 PM

Seems that you can be blinded by patriotism.

Most of the definitions I found equate "patriotism" with "love," that seems valid.

You can love your country such that you think it's just perfect, and should stay that way.

You can love your country so much that you will work to make it even better.

garyk · 01-20-2004, 06:02 PM

1pump, yeah I wasn't sure if you were thinking of that, or maybe a more modern example like in the aftermath of the breakup of Yugoslavia.

I think the '****' analogy gets over-played these days, that's why I refrained from using that exact word.

But in answer to the original question, **** Germany is the epitome of uber-patriotism.

(The Spartans were pretty gonzo too, but history that far back gets a little sketchy and there can be contextual details that have been lost to us)

Silver Hilton · 01-20-2004, 08:45 PM

I think you're over-patriotic when you lose the ability to be analytic and possibly critical (if needed) of your country's positions and actions. I think that describes our country's dominant attitude over the past three years.

I don't think you need to be critical of the country. I think you need to be prepared to be critical of the country. I compare this to how I care for my children. I love my children, and think they are the best kids on the planet. However, I am prepared to admit that, on any given day, there are things that they and I can do to have them be better.

In the past few years, I think the ability of this country and it's citizens to admit that we could be better has diminished.

And the fire that I will take for saying so will simply prove my point.

kayakfisher · 01-20-2004, 08:54 PM

One of the best ways to be patriotic is to participate in our democratic process...be informed, don't take everything on faith, pay your taxes but make sure the gov spends it carefully/wisely, and show your gets by example how to live.

Hope you all saw the state of the union address this eve, and the subsequent commentaries.

M

ORoutdoorsman · 01-20-2004, 08:54 PM

I think that alot of people are misusing the word "patriotic". I don't think you can be over patriotic, unless it somehow went to the extent of being an addiction where you were not able to function do to how patriotic you were trying to be. However, people supporting the leader of their country no matter what is not over patriotic, that is being blind. Someone that is patriotic has pride in their country. They know what their country stands for, and would not support someone who jeopardizes what their country "is all about". People in Germany under Hitler were not patriotic. They were ignorant and intimidated. The Union army in the civil war was patriotic. They knew what their country standed for, and would not stand for their "brothers" jeopardizing the integrity of the country their forefathers had fought so hard to build. So while you can be blindly patriotic, it would be very hard to be overly patriotic.

1pump · 01-20-2004, 11:30 PM

Quote:

the National Socialist Party would agree there's no limit to nationalistic patriotism

That's what I was thinking of when I mentioned ultra-nationalism, but I decided to leave out the **** reference. :tongue:

Quote:

What I think is funny is that celebrities get quoted and put in the paper like they have figured out so much about life when they make pretend for a living.

Well, somebody asked her. She probably didn't give a crap if she was quoted or not. Sounds like some editor wanted to get some attention and sell some more tripe.

What I thought was ironic were Martin Sheen's comments about gun violence. He thinks Americans are a bunch of trigger-happy goons but his industry has done more to promote and glorify violence than anyone else.

lost_sailor · 01-21-2004, 08:55 AM

Was the Confederate army patriotic also?

Silver Hilton · 01-21-2004, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lost_sailor:
Was the Confederate army patriotic also?

The losers are always terrorist thugs.

ORoutdoorsman · 01-21-2004, 02:05 PM

No, the confederate army was not patriotic. Being patriotic would mean that you are fervent in your love and devotion to the country in which you live, and the principals that the country was founded upon. The Confederate state tried to make a new country, leave behind the U.S. constitution, and create an area based on something completely different than what our country was founded upon. They were not patriotic.

[ 01-21-2004, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: ORoutdoorsman ]

01-21-2004, 02:24 PM

OR,
At the time states were where your patriotism went. They were patriots. The Federal Government was expanding it's power at the expence of "states rights".

The "declaration of independance" had nothing to do with it.

And just what is this about?

Quote:

and create an area based on something completely different than what our country was founded upon

Go back and reread your constitutional history.

ORoutdoorsman · 01-21-2004, 02:32 PM

Keta, I know my history well. ANd the fact of the matter is, that these states were a part of the United States of America. Period. The individual states applied for statehood to the United States od America. It was there choice to be part of the United STates of America. And when I wrote declaration of independence, I meant to write the U.S. Constitution. WHich is what our country is founded on. And when they broke away, they were defying what their country, and their individual states were founded upon.

DanS · 01-21-2004, 02:37 PM

So, were our founding fathers patriots, then?

01-21-2004, 03:40 PM

Thanks Dan.

OR,
Where in the Constitution does it say that the southern states couldn�t leave the US and form their own government?

As for "States Rights" what part of the 10th Amendment is vague?

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

lost_sailor · 01-21-2004, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DanS:
So, were our founding fathers patriots, then?

Our founding fathers loved their country and were willing to give their lives to free it from an oppressive government.

"NOW you see the light! Stand up for your rights!"
-Bob Marley-

ORoutdoorsman · 01-21-2004, 05:07 PM

Keta, this is going to be my last post since I do not feel like debating yet another issue. The southern states were not patriotic,because "patriotism
n (ca. 1726): love for or devotion to one's country" "patriotic
adj (1757) 1: inspired by patriotism" Seceeding from ones country does not show love nor devotion for it, thus they were not patriotic.
As far as the tenth amendment goes, the tenth amendment is illustrating the fact that individual states can have their own constitution, and have rights above those of the United Stated constitution, however, they must not infringe on the rights guaranteed by the U.S. constitution. In other words, a state can give someone more rights, but cannot take those away guaranteed by the U.S. constitution. The tenth amendment has nothing to do with removing states from the Union, or taking land owned by the United STates for your own. The southern states could not remove them selves from the United STated because The Unites Stated owned the land. The states may have established a state. however the land is ultimately owned on the federal, not state level. The state can dictate what is dont with land, however, the federal goverment has the ability to step in and say how the land must be used. The tenth amendment has nothing to do at all with it.

01-21-2004, 06:35 PM

OR,
At the time the States superceded the Federation.
Their "country" was their state.
Their reason to break away was just as legitimate (in their minds and at the time) as the reasons we separated from Britain.

Nowhere in the costitution did it state that slavery was unconstitutional. The federal government, ie. high population northern states, were trying to force the south to eliminate what was at the time legal (wrong but still legal). Therefor an unconstitutional breach of the 10th Amendment.

[ 01-21-2004, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

Hoosier Daddy · 01-22-2004, 07:04 AM

Yes, you ca N e AZI ly be too 'patriotic'.

2LEYS · 01-22-2004, 07:17 PM

??????

Silver Hilton · 01-23-2004, 10:19 AM

Keta, if you're not careful, you may turn into one of those moral relativists!

I think the Civil War is a great example. Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee no doubt believed in their cause as fervently as Abraham Lincoln and Ulysses Grant did. History determines who the patriots were, because the winners get to write history.

The lesson is important, not because Davis and Lee were wrong or right, but because it helps us understand current events.

01-23-2004, 12:17 PM

SH,
BINGO!

HD,
The Nazi�s were fanatical worshipers of a cult leader more than patriotic. The non **** German army was patriotic.

[ 01-23-2004, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

Hoosier Daddy · 01-26-2004, 08:51 AM

Keta, I know. I'm as patriotic as anyone, and more conservative than most. Just pointing out that patriotism can go too far. Of course, I could also argue that at that point, it's far from patriotism, but there are historical precedents of leaders using patriotism to rally the public to support something far more sinister. I don't think that's what we have now, though.

Kruechief · 01-26-2004, 04:53 PM

No, I don't believe so...

I think the Patriots have a steller chance of winning the Superbowl

Krue

[ 01-26-2004, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: Kruechief ]

01-26-2004, 11:57 PM

HD,
I too believe that it can go too far. The WWII German Army is a good example of this.

The Confederates, on the other hand, were patriots, in the thinking of their time.

[ 01-26-2004, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]