I don't agree with Bush, and I feel bad

[Pan Fry]

I don't agree with Bush deciding to allow temporary status for 8 million illegal aliens.
I don't agree with the message it sends to corporate america. I'm starting to believe that Bush caters to the big corporations. By allowing 8 million aliens as temporay status, not only does he get a heck of a lot of votes, it allows companys like Wal Mart to hire for cheaper labor and get away with it. This kind of move can lower the standard of living for millions of current americans if companys can get away with paying less. As the cost of living continues to go up.
The other problem I have is that I don't feel we should help other governments problems. They need to fix their own so people don't continue to try and leave.
I'm not a racist, I have many friends and family memebers of all cultures and religion. I'm fortunate to be an american, I'm just stuck on this one. And Bush is losing my vote.
grrr.

pan fry

[2LEYS]

We need to stop raising the minimum wage!!!

[Slow and Low]

I have a problem with the message Bush is sending. Consider it from another angle. What if real jobs, ie., maufacturing labor ect are being lost. What if by infusing the US labor force with low cost labor could save jobs long term? Yeah, I know this labor is already here, and since we know that and can't stop it why should we waste preciouse resourses fighting it, and why would we want them working under the table instead of paying taxs?

As I said I have a problem with the message (we give!). But this is no longer a Mexico problem.

[SLEDDER]

I am pro-Bush. I don't agree with this erasing of the Mexican border. I am hoping it is a calculated political move. I am hoping that Congress will not allow this. The hispanic community sees that Bush is on their side so they vote for him. I stay away from politics, usually don't post anything regarding politics. This situation actually has me a little worried.

[FishinMission]

I'd like to think he's gonna pull a sting operation like they do with criminals they can't catch....you know..tell them they have money coming, or something like that to get them to appear...and then "Slammo"...you're busted.

I think that'd be a great move...when they come in to get their legal status...the buses would be waiting behind the building ready to haul them back to Mexico.

Ahhhh...but I'm probably only dreaming.....

Mark

[GutshotApe]

Originally posted by Pan Fry:
I
I don't agree with the message it sends to corporate america. I'm starting to believe that Bush caters to the big corporations.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Few illegal aliens work for "the big corporations"...many if not most of 'em work on small & medium-sized farms, nurseries, etc...as well as perform day-labor jobs for American homeowners. Sure, some big timber company tree planters might be illegal...but these people work for independent contractors, not Weyco, etc. And, under the law, Weyco etc. is prohibited from checking "green cards" of contractor's employees based on their perceived race or national origin.

[Birdnest]

I am pro Bush, but this one is got my attention as well.

On one hand it opens the border and invites unknown numbers of people to share in our social services. Right now in CA 1/3 of legal immigrants (not just hispanic) are on some form of welfare. California is sueing the federal govt. for financial relief from this burden non taxpaying users have weighed down their system with. You send a message to Latin America that if can just get here, we'll take care of the rest.

On the other hand, we are talking about people not just numbers. There is no way of knowing the degree of exploitation that goes on with undocumented workers in this country. Their employers have them over a barrel and they know it.

Most of the "illegal aliens" I met growing up were on ranches in Texas. These folks worked like no other and were as tough as an old shoe. They would send back the majority of their pay to their family and live more modestly than you or I would ever choose to. They also wouldn't let you go by with out sitting you down to a meal. I have a great deal of respect for that kind of person and it leaves a lasting impression on a person.

Bush has a proven voting record for impoving the lives of hispanic/illegals. There is also a lot to gain considering votes. If you had to make blanket statements...a lot of poor hispanics rely on social services, thus the democratic party would be more appealing. However, the majority of hispanics are Catholic, which place a high degree of importance on conservative family values...Republican platform.

Bush will never win California, but if you remember from 2000, New Mexico went to Gore. I don't think this is all just political. I think there is a chance that Bush really wants to improve the lives of these people.

One thing I like about Bush's first term is that from day one he never seemed to be playing for a second term. He has just gone out and done what he felt was right to the best of his ability, I think this is another chapter from that book.

Joe

[lost_sailor]

Originally posted by Pan Fry:
I'm starting to believe that Bush caters to the big corporations.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">NO!

Really?

Cheap labor and Hispanic votes are the motivation here, regardless of whatever words spill out of W's mouth.

[foxer]

Dont count on it passing in congress. This is just a political move. Ask Pres. Fox why he uses the Mexican military to patrol his border to the south. Nope, dont want those Guatamalan's coming up here (mexico). Mexico's economy would crumble if we totally closed the border. I read somewhere that like 50% of the money the illegals/work visa's earn is shipped back to Mexico so their family's can spend it in Mexico.

[ 01-17-2004, 09:41 PM: Message edited by: foxer ]

[TheRogue]

What I saw on the news the other day is that oil is Mexico's number one money maker, followed by immigrants (legal and illegal) sending money home from the USA. Of course Pres. Fox is going to fall all over himself in approving Bush's plan.

I agree, the average immigrant (especially illegal) will do the grunt work better and faster than the average American, they've got a lot more on the line. But does that make it OK??

TR

[2LEYS]

I have heard that here in OR, they went through the agricultural areas and did a sweep once. Rounded up a bunch of illegals. It nearly bankrupted a lot of the farms. Produce prices went way up. It was a disaster.

Did it need to be done? Yes. But you have to understand the ramifications of doing that. If we round up all illegals in this country then we will pay a lot more for every product we buy. I think that Bush is trying to do something about a known problem. It is unrealistic to round em up and ship them out. So lets tighten the borders and make some of them legal.

We keep raising the minimum wage. That right there is a back breaker to the economy. So we have to pay a legal $7.10 an hour. We can pay an illegal whatever they are willing to work for. So if you are in a competitive business like agriculture, what are you going to do? Pay a red blooded lazy american $7.10 an hour? Or pay an illegal $3.00 for twice as much production?

Another point is thanks to greedy unions and NAFTA all of the jobs are leaving this country. We have to pay a union worker $30 an hour for a $15 an hour job. So what do we do? Ship the work to China...

I think he is just trying to do something. Not that I agree or disagree.

[float2ber]

They might work for less, but they are bankrupting the schools, the hospitals, and the welfare system. Besides, doesn't "illegal" mean anything? Tancredo for president!

[WheresMyBobber]

When was the last time you folks visited your local County Health Offices? If you did, who was there?

And at the same time we blame our Public Employees Retirement System (contract) for busting the system?

Sorry, if this breaks the current boundries of LIG, please feel free to delete this post. No harm, no foul. :smile:

In the KF area they are doing construction and mill work. If they are here leagly great. Round up the illegals and send them home.

[ORoutdoorsman]

Anyone who looks down on or is surprised that a polictician does something that appeases people, needs to count on supporting someone who is either never in office, or is only elected once. The fact of the matter is that politics is a strategy. While there may be things people do we don't like, that has to be expected. If any politician just went off and did nothing with any concern to how to atleast make himself look good to the opposite party, he would never be in office. That simple. If Bush kicked out all illegal aliens with no "compassion"(which I would be in support of) then he would be looked down upon by too many people, and would never be re-elected. You have to realise that the world is becoming more and more liberal by the day. So any step he takes that wholy alienates liberals will cost him the presidency. And that is the way it is with any politician. Thats why the best you can do is look for a politician that wont make a poor decision, or lie to get his way. I dont like it either, but just think for a minute, whether you are a liberal or conservative, if the person from your party did exactly what you wanted, do you think he would have enough of the population left to get him or her another term? I am completely anti illegal alien. But I think that Bush makes decisions based on what is just and right, and while he has to play the political game, I dont believe he will , make a decision to harm the U.S. and better his political standing. As far as offering the aliens "residency", well aliens taking this offer can be kept track of, and those not can be looked at more closely. Which is a good move in the war on terrorism. He can see who he allows citizen ship, and justify kicking anyone out who is a risk or refuses to claim residency without alienating the bleeding hearts.

[glassblower]

When I was a kid we could go downtown and hop onto a bus and go pick berries or whatever needed to be hand picked, now kids can not do that (they must be 16 and have a SS number to pay taxes). And we wonder why kids have no morals or work related value these days, well the work part is because they are no longer allowed to work, the morals are because the government has taken away from schools and parents the the ability to disapline the kids, not to mention things like the pledge of aleagence and prayer. Rather they let the mexicans come up and do jobs that could be done by our own people. I wish my kids would have the opritunity to go do that work so they could learn the value of a buck. Plus we give them welfare & medical benefits that allot of our own people can not get. Some drive with no insurance or licence and then you get hit by them and your screwed (I have been hit three times by them, and I got the shaft every time). I say if they are here illegaly, deport them and take them home. Just my .02

[ 01-19-2004, 08:38 AM: Message edited by: STGRule ]

[DF]

Glassblower, I agree with your point [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

... not to be too 'politicaly correct' but be carful on what word you use to define a certain race...

[Slow and Low]

Wow! Glassblower!

I too grew up working on farms. I didn't take a bus. At 13 I picked berries, by 14 I was promoted to picking rocks behing a dumptruck. Next came moving irrigation pipe. Ect, ect. Those were great days. No "mexicans" ever threatened me. I do know that the farmers didn't have to pay minimum wage or overtime to me either. Kids today are not interested in working 12 hour days for $3.00 an hour, I'm not either. In addition to my newfound lazziness I am also selfish and don't want to share my money with the american farmer when bying produce. For instance, when I buy a head of lettuce, I don't want to take out a second on my house.
Next lets address the impact on State and local services. This country believes in meeting basic human needs for all! Most people fel they would like basic needs met if they themselves could not go it alone. The isue is cost. President Bush would make many fo these folks tax payers, ie., increasing the base of taxpayers. So, ask yourself, are you oppsed to a hand out, or just opposed to a hand out for anyone who doesn't look the same as you.

Most of us come from an immigrant background. Unless you are Native American someone in your family immigrated to this country. Chances are they came with nothing and didn't speak english. There children, our ancestors had an opportunity for a better life. The result was and is the greatest country in the world. This country continues to be a beacon of hope. Ask yourself why this is so. Ask yourself if you think you are one of the chosen people who was lucky enough to be born here. I think not, you are lucky to have been born to a line of immigrants who crossed the ocean or border in search of a better life.

Check yourself.

[Jennie@ifish]

I'm not even going to read this, as I'm not interested in Politics on LIG.
However, I got whistled this morning that it was here.

Please avoid political discussions on ifish.
This is so that others that are trying to do right by my wishes, and avoiding them, don't get all upset by not being able to tell their side of it.

They are trying to keep the peace. Do I have to just say no to all politics, and watch it with all my might, or can you guys give me a break, and stop, so that those with differing opinions don't have to feel stifled?

I guess I'll just have to watch more carefully.
I don't really get it, actually, as I don't get all steamed up that other people have differing opinions. Again, I am not cut out to moderate a political board. It's not my thang. I apologize for that, but you can turn a grape into an orange. I am what I am. :smile: (A grape? :smile: )

If we could all just respect each other's opinions, this would not be necessary. The world is a big jumbled up mess of political opinions. It's not going to be solved, here. This does not mean that I don't care, I just don't care to monitor a political board. Please respect my choice in what ifish delves in, or doesn't, and try to keep these things to a polite minimum.

If that doesn't work, I don't know what to do. I'm tired of people saying, "See? You are unfair!" It's not like that. I simply am not interested in moderating things like this.

Fair and balanced? Impossible to be that, anywhere. Totally impossible for me, cuz I don't know how, and I don't even wanna try! :smile:

Jen

Thanks,
Jen