Hear Bush today? No dam removal!!

corkyking · 12-17-2003, 10:12 PM

In a previous post I said that no president would endorse removal of Columbia or Snake dams.

In a speech today Bush reinforced my position:

Quote:

By ROBERT McCLURE AND LISA STIFFLER
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTERS

BURBANK -- Against a backdrop of golden hayfields, green orchards and the imposing gray of Eastern Washington's Ice Harbor Dam, President Bush yesterday argued that the Northwest's salmon can be saved without tearing down a single power-generating dam.

Bush in a morning speech near the Tri-Cities pointed to this year's high salmon returns as proof that salmon can co-exist with the dams.

dampainter · 12-18-2003, 04:56 AM

amen brother, just wait till I retire then they can take em out :grin: ....but than again, I will always be against taking them out.

[ 12-18-2003, 07:10 AM: Message edited by: dampainter ]

FEAR NO FISH! · 12-18-2003, 05:01 AM

That speech was two months ago at Ice Harbor Dam. He took the credit for saving our Salmon.

Thumper · 12-18-2003, 05:04 AM

Steve --- Re-read his speech. He commented on the runs and the attempts by many to re-build them, but took no credit.

kamloops · 12-18-2003, 05:49 AM

Why can't we build more fish ladders, great use of concrete and creates many jobs to put people back to work.
Where are the farmers going to get water to grow fries for McDonalds.
How many jobs have been lost forever when the Aluminum smelters went by-by.

Straydog · 12-18-2003, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kamloops:
Why can't we build more fish ladders, great use of concrete and creates many jobs to put people back to work.

If only it were this simple.

There is so much more to it than simply building fish ladders.

Water flow, spawning and rearing habitat, water temprature, gravel rotation, river meandering, water quality, predation.......... all of these things are negatively affected by dams.

Further, what makes an Aluminum industry job more valuable than a fishing industry job? Further yet, with the increase in fish returns recently, there has been a tremdendous increase in the production and sales of aluminum boats.......... seems like the fishing industry is pretty good for the Aluminum industry.

sturgeon guru123 · 12-18-2003, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by corkyking:
In a previous post I said that no president would endorse removal of Columbia or Snake dams.

In a speech today Bush reinforced my position:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> By ROBERT McCLURE AND LISA STIFFLER
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTERS

BURBANK -- Against a backdrop of golden hayfields, green orchards and the imposing gray of Eastern Washington's Ice Harbor Dam, President Bush yesterday argued that the Northwest's salmon can be saved without tearing down a single power-generating dam.

Bush in a morning speech near the Tri-Cities pointed to this year's high salmon returns as proof that salmon can co-exist with the dams.

<hr /></blockquote>

kamloops · 12-18-2003, 06:38 AM

SD

Most any Dam without a ladder is a horrible waste of resource, granted many of these dams have already depleted valued and historic fish runs. Elwa dam in Washington.

CATCH AND EAT · 12-18-2003, 06:46 AM

FNF no credit taken by BUSH for salmon Runs anywhere in his speach. Nice try though.

id. painter · 12-18-2003, 06:57 AM

The little dam on the White Salmon river has no fish passage . The runs that used to go up that river are gone . Is that co-existance? id. painter

Straydog · 12-18-2003, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kamloops:
SD

Most any Dam without a ladder is a horrible waste of resource, granted many of these dams have already depleted valued and historic fish runs. Elwa dam in Washington.

I agree. It is rediculous to build any dam without a fish ladder. Just pointing out that fish ladders alone do not alleviate all the problems associated with dams.

BrokeItOff · 12-18-2003, 07:00 AM

StrayDog, this maybe a redherring(red salmon?) but I think that arguing over fishing jobs vs other jobs is largely irrelevant now. I think that there has been a structural shift in fish production(salmon production) to fish farms. I am not sure that if we had huge numbers of fish it would make commercial salmon fishing economically viable due to competition with fish farms.

As for the sport fishing industry, yes it has done well as of late (my dad and brother have both benefitted) but economics may have been driving this more than fish returns. (There are bunches of economic reasons people are buying boats and booking guided trips, not just that there are more fish though this helps.)

As for the aluminum industry, I wonder how much of the aluminum for boats comes from off-shore? I know Japan is a large manufacturer, and I have worked in an industry that would could not use American made aluminum due to quality and consistancy issues, though I don't know if boat manufacturers have the same concerns that we did.

To carry your argument further, are we to say a boat builder's job is more important than a farmer/barge operator/mill worker? I do not know the answer.

Shane

Straydog · 12-18-2003, 07:12 AM

Brokeitoff,

All good points as well as educational for me. I was not aware of the differences in Aluminum quality or the price factors of imports.

In terms of fishing industry jobs I was only speaking to Sportfishing jobs. Rather short sighted of me, huh? :blush:

You are right today, in terms of the Commercial Salmon industry although I am not convinced thie fairly recent surge of farmed salmon will maintain itself into the future for a couple of reasons. Obviously that is yet to be seen.

You are also right in terms of the economy and boat sales. However, I believe that without strong fish runs, the economy would have had little to do with the growth in the fishing boat industry. Fortunately for them, the moon, the return of the fish, the sun and the economy all seemed to line up just right, this time! :grin:

Your last sentence illustrates well the complexities of the issue and, like you, I don't have all the answers.

[ 12-18-2003, 08:14 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

kamloops · 12-18-2003, 07:15 AM

It is going to be interesting to observe the removal of the two Elwa dams on the Olympic Penninsula slated in early 2004.
Those dams were built to power the Saw and Paper mills that provided jobs back in the early 1900's, but without fish ladders they destroyed one of the largest salmon runs in North America.
Don't think they even knew what a fish ladder was back then.
Don't get me wrong, I am far from a tree hugger, but some dams that have outlived their usefullness should be breached. And yes, don't quote me on this, this is a good use of my tax dollars.

Straydog · 12-18-2003, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kamloops:
Don't get me wrong, I am far from a tree hugger, but some dams that have outlived their usefullness should be breached. And yes, don't quote me on this, this is a good use of my tax dollars.

Right on!! [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

corkyking · 12-19-2003, 03:42 PM

Quote:

they destroyed one of the largest salmon runs in North America.

Not trying to be picky. Just for clarification - It had, if not the largest run, then certainly a run of the largest Salmon - a 70lb'r was not rare - they still catch the occasional large fish.

Otolith · 12-19-2003, 09:38 PM

To me this is a good example of the real difference between the liberal and conservative mindset. One is an idealist and one is a realist.

Of course we all would love to remove the dams and have fish return unimpeded to their historical native streams (we would also like world peace, free food, clothes, housing and healthcare for everyone, etc.). But Bush will balance environmental protection with the economy. The northwest was built on cheap hyrdropower. Why do you think you all run around in ALUMINUM sleds. Aluminum production requires lots of energy, so it must be CHEAP for those companies to operate. Hydropower brought those industries here, and the northwest grew from that. BTW, Bonneville Power paid the aluminum companies to shut down the last couple of years so they wouldn't have to sell them cheap electricity, thus preserving water to spill for our precious salmon.

And do you know how much energy is required for the manufacturing they do out at Intel? What would Intel do if suddenly their power bill in Portland was increased 10 fold? What would happen to Portland's economy if Intel closed shop and moved somewhere else?

Hydropower supplies cheap and clean electricity. If we can make dams coexist with anadramous fish, everybody wins. And it appears we are doing that.

[ 12-19-2003, 10:49 PM: Message edited by: Otolith ]

crabbait · 12-19-2003, 10:05 PM

Could not agree more, Otolith. Except with the "realist/idealist" part. More like short term profit for the few versus long term health of the ecosystem and the good of many.

As has been mentioned on this board before, there are dams that produce little and destroy much. Removing them is a good use of our short term resources for the good of the long term.

What heritage will we leave?

Born to be Wild · 12-20-2003, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Further yet, with the increase in fish returns recently, there has been a tremdendous increase in the production and sales of aluminum boats.......... seems like the fishing industry is pretty good for the Aluminum industry.

Yep, just what we need, more boats on the river.
Ever fish the Rogue, Willamette,Tillamook Bay, Wilson,Bouy 10 Straydog?
Just what we need, more boats!

jokester · 12-20-2003, 10:25 AM

Quote:

FNF no credit taken by BUSH for salmon Runs anywhere in his speach. Nice try though.

Bernie,

Maybe Bush didn't save our salmon, but you'll never be able to thank that Al Gore guy enough for inventing the internet

-

jokester

FEAR NO FISH! · 12-20-2003, 10:32 AM

I didn't know there was so much love for tree, er, Bush, here on this board. I need to visit LIG more often. Anyways, the guy screwed up steel heading that day! He has got to go!

Otolith · 12-20-2003, 05:29 PM

I will not argue with a moderator on Left in General. I will not argue with a moderator on Left in General. I will not argue with a moderator on Left in General.

I feel better now.

[ 12-20-2003, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: Otolith ]

Sturgeon · 12-20-2003, 11:13 PM

kamloops
Member # 3323 posted 12-18-2003 06:49 AM
-------------------------------------------------
How many jobs have been lost forever when the Aluminum smelters went by-by.

1,300 jobs approx were lost.
Aluminume companys made millions on the negotiation and sell of exsisting contracts which were negotiated between BPA and the aluminum industries ( goldendale and Northwest aluminum companies).Bpa offered millions to sell it for billions in california. A big scam. within this sell, aluminum industries were force to find power elswere and this was never accomplished.Brett wilcox (CEO of these companies)negotiated a larger sell than would have ever been thought of in previous years. Mr. Wilcox purchased power for .30 cents per KW hour and sold it for better than $2.00 a KW hour. The point is when do we as origonians or americans for that matter allow for our jobs to be sold so cheap. I am a displaced steel worker. Previously employed at a aluminum smelter and lost my life because this sale to place.who cares about the little guy, he/she will survive. may never be able to afford housing, clothes for the kids, food, or other necessities( fishing pole). but when it is all said and done the rich get richer and the middle class get poorer.