YellowStone Protected

[El-Kabong]

"The National Park Service must revive a plan scrapped by the Bush administration to ban snowmobiles from Yellowstone and Grand Teton national parks, a federal judge ordered Tuesday."

yellowstone story

I think this is a victory for Yellowstone and a message to boaters that we need to be vigilant about our equipment and impact on the water ways that we use.

(ps - Look Look Im A Chinook!)

[ 12-17-2003, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: El-Kabong ]

[Hoosier Daddy]

In a similar vein, I'm getting tired of all the OHV's in the areas I've been trying to hunt. I know we need to share the forests and that they have a right to hobby like I do, but darn it seemed like they were EVERYWHERE!!

[Day Late]

There are two types of users in today's outdoors - those who like to walk and enjoy the woods with all its natural sounds and smells and those who like to ride and don't give a hoot about those things or the hikers. When I was growing up, an occasional trailbike might come along, but not very often. Today, we're overwhelmed by motorcycles, ATV's, snowbobiles, generators, etc. For a guy like me (58) who doesn't own a packstring, wilderness areas are a day hike experience at best, therefore I visit national forests and attempt to find limited use, road closed areas in which to camp and hunt. These areas are few and far between.

This issue is like politics and religion - each side has their own view and will stick to it to the end. At some point I'll probably come to the conclusion that it just isn't much fun anymore and hang it up. Just my .02 cents. :depressed:

Day Late

[Salmon Hot Shot]

Late Day do hike around in the woods with 10 feet of snow? I ride snowmobiles and i love it. After the snow melts you could never tell we were there.

[Popeye]

Gus.... [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] Very well put, Sir!

[lost_sailor]

Originally posted by Salmon Hot Shot:
Late Day do hike around in the woods with 10 feet of snow?...

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I do! It's called nordic skiing. Some call it snowshoeing.

Snowmobiles stink and make a LOT of noise. They kinda look like fun, though. As long as they are confined to someplace I can avoid, OK!

[bllelk]

Day Late

I'm sorry but generalizations about OHV users isn't right, IMHO. My personal experience and that of my sons has been when you are doing the OHV thing you belong to responsible organizations, respect the land and do what you can to make it better for everyone.
Unfortunately there are those in every group of people that are not responsible and leave a heck of a mess for others.
As a former sledder and active OHV association member I would agree there have been too many sleds going into Yellowstone. But they should be limited, not shut out completely. There are hundreds of square miles around Yellowstone to do your thing if busting powder is what you want to do, so there are always going to be lots of sleds in the area. Touring Yellowstone in the winter on a sled however,is a great way to see it, flying down the road in one of those coaches with fogged up windows isn't.
People have to make reservations to float the Middle Fork of the Salmon and other rivers, I don't see why they can't set up the same program in Yellowstone.

[Uglygreen]

Sounds like more elitist &lt;stuff&gt; to me.

Last time I was in Yellowstone in winter - snowmoblies were restricted to the same roads cars use in summer and restricted to 25 mph. What could be wrong with that?

Whats the difference between a snowmobile on a road in winter and a car on a road in the summer?

So - only licenced tour operators will be allowed? Gee, I wonder who was pushing this plan? Tour operators and cross country ski tree huggers i'll bet. Hope the Bush administration gets it thrown out.

What if someone took a local river like the Wilson or Clackamas and said "only licenced guides are allowed to operate here" - or better yet maybe they should ban private cars from Yellowstone and only allow greyhound busses to drive thru in the summer?

Yellostone in winter is really something to see. Everyone should get a chance to do it. Its best seen on your own schedule with the wind in your face and the view outside a smelly "snowcoach" driven by some dumb teenage pimple faced high school dropout.

Its a national park not a wilderness area - this is stupid.

UG

[ 12-18-2003, 06:42 AM: Message edited by: STGRule ]

[Uglygreen]

I agree with Gus about the four strokes and could even see a limited permit system like on the Deschutes if there are just plain too many people for the space avalible. But there is lots and lots of space in Yellowstone, it would take a lot of sleds for it to feel crowded or be dangerous.

UG

[ 12-17-2003, 06:38 PM: Message edited by: Uglygreen ]

[kamloops]

LS

What do you think about Jet Skiis, do you also sail? :tongue:

[metalhead madness]

I am an avid sledder and atver as well as 2 stroke jet boat owner. I go to Yellowstone with my family almost every year and it is a fantastic trip. We do a trip that takes 4 days. Start ing Island Park thru Ashton then Jackson Hole, South gate of the park, thru the park , west Yellowstone, back to Island Park. If you haven't done it you are missing out. This is one the most beautiful trips ever. To deny that to anyone is just wrong. Sled are restricted in the park to roadways. Don't like the sounds plenty of room to get away. I also do not want to see this wonderful park in a snow coach with a bunch of people I don't know. My family and I have had great memories stopping and pikniking in the snow amongst the buffalo and moose. On another note to any cross country skiers out there. Who do you think pays for the trail groomers? Just my 2 cents but I can tell you sleds are not cheap to own and most that do own them I can assure you belong to an organization and are very thoughtful of the enviorment.

[Gus Orviston]

Day Late

Really, just two types:
There are two types of users in today's outdoors -
1) those who like to walk and enjoy the woods with all its natural sounds and smells

2)those who like to ride and don't give a hoot about those things or the hikers.

It isn't that simple. I ride, as many do on this board whether it is snomobiles, hunt with ATVs, or offroad, and I do think of others when I am out. I enjoy bowhunting and do it w/o ATVs. If I hunt in an area that ATVs are playing, or hunting, it doesn't bother me. They are having their experience and that is okay. If I want a different experience and be assured no motor will come near me, then I would go to such a place. ATV use is restricted and there are millions of acres that do not allow their use.

I would say that the guy on the hunting on an ATV would probably miss seeing much of what you do while walking. I am sure of it. I have hiked trails I have ridden and the experience is quite different. I can't say either one is the best for me.

Much of society thinks like this, if they are doing it differently than me then it is wrong. And this thinking is carried out in how we drive our cars/SUVs, fishing from boat or bank, drift boat or sled, flyfishing or bait, etc... It never stops. We are often divide up and then special interest groups take you on separately, win and move on to the next sub-group.

Making a blanket statement that you know what somebody thinks when they are riding an ATV, and that the person is bad as a result is short of being intellectually honest in my opinion.

I like the ideas of some regulation for Yellowstone, it is truly an amazing place. It should be protected. How that is done will be an ongoing process and hopefully/probably will never stop. I read in the article that some 493 snow mobiles still will have access. I will plead ingnorance that I have no idea how many went through the park daily last year or the year before, so I don't know what the reduction will for the environment or do to the economy for that matter?

I like the idea of converting to 4 strokes, technology has come a long way with them. And I too get tired of the smoke in the air. I can imagine that YS has got to get pretty bad with the cold air the smoke probably settles in the valley and doesn't get moved out by the wind. As for numbering the access, I am not sure I know enough about the total number visiting the park in the winter. In the summer it is extremely congested, and probably needs some limits for automile access as well.


gus

[Fish_N_Russ]

I was at West Yellowstone in December last year for my honeymoon........the town isnt that big and outside it smelled of exhaust because of all the snowmobiles driving around town Nothing against snow mobile people, I just think there is lots of other places they can drive them around :smile: .

[Uglygreen]

Probably a lot of other places you could have gone on your honeymoon as well.

UG

[Straydog]

Either/or, black/white, don't like it, leave......

It is attitudes such as these that make viable, truly balanced compromise so difficult to acheive.

I remember oh so well when the Rogue was made a Wild and Scenic river with permits needed for the Wild section. People, myself included, were highly ticked off and voiced a loud concern for the restictions and supposed denial of rights.

Thirty some years later it is difficult to argue against the fact that it was the best thing for a truly unique and beautiful piece of God's land.

[lost_sailor]

Originally posted by kamloops:
LS
What do you think about Jet Skiis, do you also sail? :tongue:

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Jet Skis! I try to hit them!

I think of them the same as snow machines, they're obnoxious but they look like a kick in the butt to ride - never tried either. A lot depends on the operators, of course. Again, if they're confined to an area I can avoid, that's excellent.

I do like sailing ... but my boat is strictly a noisy smoky 2-stroke, just because that's what it is :blush:

If I ever go to Yellowstone, I'll choose early summer with a fly rod in hand.

[ 12-18-2003, 08:01 AM: Message edited by: lost_sailor ]

[kamloops]

LS

I felt the same way about jet skis, but I have kind of eased up a little, I now have a garage
full of them. If you can't beat them, join them.

It's all about the operator, his ability and respect for other peoples feelings.
The new skis are getting quite a bit better on noise and smoke. I agree, I don't like to hear the racket, but as long as the kids are in the middle of the lake it's not too bad.

As far as sailboats go, I kind of feel the same way about them as you on jet skis. Funny, the sailers feel the same way about me.

[ 12-18-2003, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: kamloops ]

[bllelk]

Metalhead touched on a good point that most non ohv users tend to ignore or maybe don't know about....trail maintainence.
In Idaho at least, the dollars the State Parks and Rec uses to maintain all of the trails both for motorized and non-motorized use on state and national forests comes from annual ohv fees.
I know the Idaho Mule Association packers were talking about buying and putting the fee stickers on their saddles just to show their appreciation and make a contribution. Don't know what they would do for VIN numbers.

[id. painter]

Im with U.G. on this one. The whole idea that a snowmachine cant be in yellowstone is a joke.
I worked in Yellowstone making a clear cut ,, for a water tower. We used chain saws , a chipper and a dump truck to rip the crap out of several acres of forest. They are talking about a redo of all the major road ways in the park.This will take hundreds and thousands of gallons of diesal and will make the roads more user friendly to the over 1 million people who visit during the summer months, in cars , mobil homes, motorcycles, ect. ect . Endless increase in polution.
When they first started to push for the restrictionss they were claiming that the snowmachines were inpacting the the animals who winter there,.Causing hardship.
That didnt fly with the public so they shifted , and started to use the environmental (more popular) reasons. Little by little they are getting thier way,,, Now all the snowmachines are running on National Forest lands less than 5 miles away.,,, But Yellowstone is safe ,,, right!Not. What a fix and joke. id. painter

[Gus Orviston]

In oregon trail funding an improvements are handled pretty much the same way as in Wa, and Id for the last 13 or so years. There are 3 classes of vehicles; Class I, II, III. One for each; ATV, Motorcycle, and 4 wheel drives. Any 4 wheel drive so far off an gravel road is required to have a sticker. The money is used by many many user groups and not just the OHV community. If a trail head is too close to a creek, or run off is an issue, money can be requested to fix the issue. Same goes for creek crossings. We have built some outstanding bridges to stay up and out of Elliot Creak, Cedar Creek (Wilson system) etc...

It wasn't a few weeks after the sticker fund started growing and a line of special interest groups were wanting their unfair share. It really shed light on how greedy people are. Heck even the gov wanted to put all the money into the general fund for state level control.

gus

[DanS]

Last time I was in Yellowstone in winter - snowmoblies were restricted to the same roads cars use in summer and restricted to 25 mph. What could be wrong with that?

Whats the difference between a snowmobile on a road in winter and a car on a road in the summer?

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Two differences:

1. Snowmobiles and like 2-cycle engines produce more toxic emissions than cars do. Car emissions have been tightly regulated for years.

2. Atmospheric conditions: The temperature inversions that commonly occur in the winter hold the pollutants close to the ground. This stagnant air means less emissions create more unhealthy air.

I think the winter temperature inversions are the main factor in creating this problem.

[Royal]

I did a paper on this issue in college for an environmental politics class. I myself do not four wheel sled etc etc.. I do see both sides of the issues. Four stroke is the way that everything is leaning, which is nice, but the fact of the matter is that people are still using two strokes.

Having 55,000 snowmobiles in Yellowstone accounts for 78% of the parks carbon monoxide, there is so much carbon monoxide that fresh air is pumped into the workers booths at the enterences into Yellowstone. Fresh air pumped into a national park... it just seems sort of strange.

again, i dont really have a side on this issue. It may sound like I am leaning one way, but keep it mind it was for an environmental politics class. :grin:

[Salmon Hot Shot]

LOST SAILOR you can bet that if your ever snowshoeing or cross country skiing and you get lost,hurt or cought in a snow storm that there will be a lot of snowmobiles and snowmobilers out looking for you to save your life. It happened many times last winter,that people were saved because of someone on a sled.If I remember right a plane crashed in Idaho or Washington and some snowmobilers happened to be riding by this lake, far from anywhere and looked up and there was a wrecked plane on a frozen lake with a guy standing by the plane.If not for snowmobilers he would of never been found.

[bllelk]

I've gone sledding in Yellowstone 2 times and there is a congestion of sleds in the area of Downtown and over to the entrance gate. But I never went there expecting a wilderness experience. The air does stink esp in the morning when everyone is warming up their machines. I'm sure the people at the entrance booth get gassed pretty good by sled after sled stopping, idling and taking off. I can't imagine what it is like on Presidents weekend which is the biggest holiday of their winter season and we always stayed away. Which says something, sledders avoiding sledders.
So I think a little better control of the numbers would be better than a complete ban.
As for those of you who don't sled, West Yellowstone used to pretty much shut completely down before snowmobiling became popular.

[Martin85]

I liked what id painter said, I think that some of this is a joke and some people have too much time on their hands for their special interests.

My holiday was messed up by the snowmobiles in town? Dont go to most of Canada in the winter they are every where, and on the lakes dont ice fish there either, there are a bunch of those crazy hockey guys around messing up the fishing.

I think that the holes in the ice are messing up the skating.

I hope that the elk dont get cancer

[Thumper]

Many, many years ago I took my 460 inboard jetboat over to Montana and backtrolled [img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img] Wee Warts for trout on the Yellowstone. Talk about creating hard feelings. Sheesh!

[DanS]

My holiday was messed up by the snowmobiles in town? Dont go to most of Canada in the winter they are every where, and on the lakes dont ice fish there either, there are a bunch of those crazy hockey guys around messing up the fishing.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">This may play in the media as a battle between silence-loving nature people and sled users, but that wasn't why these restrictions were brought up in the first place. It was a pollution issue.

Now, banning flights around the Grand Canyon to preserve the "serenity" of the place IS more of a user group vs. user group scenario.

[Silver Hilton]

Originally posted by Thumper:
Many, many years ago I took my 460 inboard jetboat over to Montana and backtrolled weewarts...

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Well, now that you have a 4-stroke kicker, I'm sure it'll be OK.

[Thumper]

Originally posted by Silver Hilton:
Well, now that you have a 4-stroke kicker, I'm sure it'll be OK. [/QB]

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">SH --- Now, that's funny!!!

[Gus Orviston]

DanS is spot on, 2 stroke oil is mostly unburned, it isn't meant to combust, but to lube bearings, rings etc.. and lingers in the air literally as oil. With the cold weather there is often an inversion that keeps the smoke low. In and around valley it basically collect. I have seen this locally, but haven't experience what YS would be like. This effect will vary with topology and weather.

The offroad industry has made huge strides in getting more performance out of smaller 4 strokes and making them viable competition machines. You see this is supercross, where a 450 4 stroke is competing wtih 250 2 strokes. Allowances are made to make the conversion to thumpers a success. Time will tell as to when sleds will make the change, recent attempts haven't been as succesful in that area. I like the change, why, contrary to what started this thread. I care about noise pollution as well as the lingering oil.

gus