For all pro-lifers.

[2LEYS]

Not a pro-life vs. pro-death debate.

But for all pro-lifers, how do you guys feel about the "morning after" pill?

Yes or no?

web page

[pdxkevin]

I am against it. I firmly beleive that life begins at conception. It is at that exact moment that two seperate people joined and created a new person (or at least the beginnings of a new person). Before that point each element contained seperate DNA matching that of the original owner. After it contained a new DNA strand, which is a combination of the previous two. So in short, I am against the new pill because it prevents a fertilized egg from being implanted.

[ 12-17-2003, 06:48 AM: Message edited by: pdxkevin ]

[skahorse]

My understanding of the morning after pill is that it does not allow the fertilized egg to implant. The baby is not alive until the implantation occurs, again, this is just my understanding. In the article it reffered to stopping ovulation altogether, though it wasn't very clear... If all of the above is true, I don't see any difference between this pill and a condom. It's just preventing pregnancy from occuring, not terminating the pregnancy.

From the article:

Opponents argued women and teenage girls would rely on Plan B and abandon regular contraceptives. If they did not use condoms, they would put themselves at risk for sexually transmitted diseases, they said.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">This I would agree with. And it is a concern. However, if they(men and women) are still stupid enough to have unprotected sex with someone they just met, they were most likely going to, morning after pill or not...

From the article:

"Over-the-counter availability of the morning-after pill will lead to increased promiscuity and its attendant physical and psychological damage," Robert Carroll, a retired physician from Pittsburgh, told the panel.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I'm so sick of this argument. I really don't think anyone out there is thinking "I'm going to have sex now becuase there's a pill." Kids will be kids, if they want to have sex, they will.

From the article:

FDA staffers found Plan B's safety risks were "very limited" and posed no clear danger to a fetus if a woman was already pregnant, FDA reviewer Dan Davis said.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">This kind of ties into what I was saying at the top, the pill doesn't seem to be terminating the pregnancy, so I think it's just the same as a condom.

With all that said, I don't know much about this pill other than what I read in the article, and have heard in the past. If it does terminate prenancy, then I am completely opposed.

--Skahorse

[El Shaddai]

Just another way to murder an innocent child.....

[skahorse]

Just another way to murder an innocent child.....

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Seeing as I must be mis-informed then. Anyone have any other articles/information on this pill? [img]graemlins/1zhelp.gif[/img]

I was under the impression that it stopped pregnancy from occuring... If it's actually killing children, please, please inform me.

--Skahorse

[skahorse]

Ok, here's what I've found:

The emergency contraceptive/morning-after pill has three possible ways in which it can work:

1. Ovulation is inhibited, meaning the egg will not be released;
2. The normal menstrual cycle is altered, delaying ovulation; or
3. It can irritate the lining of the uterus so that if the first and second actions fail, and the woman does become pregnant, the tiny baby boy or girl will die before he or she can actually attach to the lining of the uterus.

Source: NCCB (A catholic backed, pro-life organization)

Ok, so number 3 is obviously an issue. However this document also states:

There is no such thing as a specific morning-after pill, but rather double doses (or more) of existing birth control pills.

Ok. So the MAP (morning after pill) acts in the exact same ways as standard birth control pills. So any women on birth control will get the same results as 1,2 & 3 listed above.

So my question is, PDXKevin & El, do you guys oppose the birth control pill in its current, accepted form?

...Probably should throw the website on here: Morning After Pill

--Skahorse

[ 12-17-2003, 08:07 AM: Message edited by: skahorse ]

[lost_sailor]

Originally posted by skahorse:
I was under the impression that it stopped pregnancy from occuring... If it's actually killing children, please, please inform me.

--Skahorse

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">They're not sure how it works, but one thing it might do is prevent "implantation" of a fertilized embryo.

[DanS]

I am against the new pill because it prevents a fertilized egg from being implanted.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">So does a woman's body.......most pregnancies are spontaneously aborted before implantation occurs.

That being said, I think selling these pills OTC may be going a little far. These aren't aspirin or Tylenol.....they are serious drugs with limited FDA testing, especially regarding repeated use.

I have reservations.

[lost_sailor]

Originally posted by DanS:
...they are serious drugs with limited FDA testing, especially regarding repeated use.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Actually, I think the testing has been pretty thorough, not to mention extensive use in Europe for many years with few adverse effects.

Doesn't matter to me personally, my wife and I are both baby-proof now!

[El-Kabong]

I wonder if this is better for a woman (taking a single pill when needed) then taking daily birth-control pills. There are certainly some bad side affects with "the pill"

anyone see anything about this?

EK

[DanS]

Actually ls, the testing is only thorough in a very limited scope of use. Selling OTC for possible repeated use has not been tested to the extent the FDA usually demands.

They've been testing the "pill" for decades and you can't buy them OTC.

[Lured In]

"Plan B contains higher doses of progestin, one of the hormones used in birth control pills. Women are supposed to take two tablets 12 hours apart. "

This pill is not simply twice that of usual birth control pills. One of the hormones in this pills has twice the progestin, but not just that. I have no issue with current birth control pills as at least they require a perscription and demonstrate a level of personal responsibility in preventing pregnancy.

From a philisophical standpoint, I don't particularly care for any the current propoganda being offered to kids. This pill is yet another way of making a poor decision have no consequences. (Abortion being the other).

Yes there are instances where arbortion can be argued based on the merit of circumstances, the reality is those instances are probably less than 5% of all abortions. Abortion has become a method of post pregnancy birth control. The morning after pill, accomplishes the same thing.(ending the pregnancy process after it has begun.)

When removing the emotions of fetal life or "body tissue" (depending on your perspective), this discussion, must focus on WHY do we need this?

Pregnancy is easy to avoid. Don't have sex. Oh...but "kids will be kids". No I don't believe that for a minute. Kids do what they believe is going to have the best end result, with the least amount of effort and the least severe consequences. Teen pregnancy and teen abortions have skyrocketed since the early 70's. Were "kids not still kids" before then? Yes they were, but society and parents were teaching, guiding and instructing children in the archaic philosophies of the "sanctity of marriage", personal discipline and the value of protecting your mind from unnecesary sexual burdens.

I thouroughly agree that kids already inundated with a sexual cultural, will only be further motivated to engage is "pregnancy free" sex.

Personally, I would much rather see our society teach our kids values and discpline than give them access to more "band aids".

Our society is becoming increasingly more dependent on sources outside of ourselves to make things better. Personal discipline and solid moral values negate the need for such things.

In terms of use for adults, so be it. Adults do as they wish, and while I might have a personal issue with this pill, I would prefer this to abortion any day.

[happybrew]

Here's a good response.

web page

happybrew

[Chromaflage]

LuredIn - [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

Abstinence works - 100% of the time.

ORS

[crabbait]

Kids do what they believe is going to have the best end result, with the least amount of effort and the least severe consequences.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Kids must have really changed since I was young! Actually, many (most?) kids tend to do whatever based on the spur-of-the-moment with no thought of the end result or consequences. They have a million different influences that affect the decisions that they make on a moment by moment basis.

I think you guys should concentrate on a medical issue that you can be more personally involved with, like the alarming incidence of prostate cancer or the high cost of Viagra.

[STGRule]

I think there are some very valid points here. Some I don't agree with, some I do. I am however most pleased with the demeanor of the conversation. Thanks.

[2LEYS]

Happybrew,

If that webpage is factual then I am even more disgusted with you know who.

[Lured In]

Crabait...Kids certainly do things on the spur of the moment. But to pretend that kids between the ages of 12-18 (those currently sexually active), don't consider consequences is an under-estimation. (IMHO)

I remember being in high school and the talk, hormones raging, etc. Through positive encouragement that focused on discipline and traditional moral values, I was able to mature to the point where I was able to make 'better' (still not the best) decisions for myself.

Kids today are inundated with a sexual society, that enables them to obtain free condoms, abortions without parental consent, and all the while nobody is telling them what the 'other' consequences of this may be. One of my favorite quotes as a teenager was "you can put on a condom, but you can't put one on your brain." Being physically capable of having sex does not make you emotionally or mentally capable of understanding the ensuing results.

Additionally, our society has continually downgraded the importance of sex in marital relationships. We have swingers, and cheaters, those who engage in fantasy (adult material or even romance novels). IMHO these things eat away at the views of our partner and create dissatisfaction. The result is marital strife, and likely contributes to divorce. (again my opinion)

Our kids needs to be kids when in high school. Date, kiss and have fun. Save the sex for when you are older. No I don't expect all children to wait until marriage, but what's wrong with setting that as a goal?

If kids are not considering the consequences of their actions, it is because those around them are not teaching them what they are.

[ 12-19-2003, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: Lured In ]

[dimwit]

"The sin of the century is the loss of the sense of sin" (Pius XII, Radio Address to the United States Catechetical Congress held in Boston [26 Oct., 1946: AAS Discorsi e Radiomessaggi, VIII (1946), 288] ).

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">That pretty much sums it up.

[crabbait]

Teach abstinence all you want. Given the opportunity, A and B will get together and create C.

When I went to school, the biggest "abstainers" were the people who had virtually no chance (opportunity) to have it any other way. High morals are easy when no temptation is presented.

Put Mr. Righteous with Hottie Hottie who wants to be naughty naughty, give it a little time and unsupervised opportunity, and we have ignition!

Works the same way with Miss Goody Goody and Mr. Hunk (ain't he the cutest). I have seen perspectives dramatically change when it is Mr. I-Preach-Abstinence's "precious" who is suddenly "preggers" at 15. She tends to take up a lot more of the pew.

[BrokeItOff]

When I see arguments like this I wonder what Mark Twain would say...

I think that selling this otc is a bad idea just because of moral equivalence, equating sex with a common cold or head ache is not right, regardless of the life beginning at conception argument.

Also I do not want this freely available to teenagers, if my daughter is ever in this situation(I am doing my best to give her the tools to avoid this) I want to know about it. OTC takes my rights as a parent, let alone the other issues.

Shane

[FishaholicAZ]

To Crabbait...

I dont know you and I probably shouldn't get invovled but I can't help but do so... I find your stance rather upsetting and somehow shallow. I was put in that situation many times while in high school and never gave it up. I finally did after being in a realationship for over two years and at the age of 21. I regretted it and haven't had sex with anyone else since. I have had plenty of girlfriends since then and everytime I let them know my position on sex before marriage and they were just fine with it.
I think that you just simply had a weak will and that is your fault. As they say, its easier to commit the sin and then ask for forgivness than to abstain from and never do it in the first place. I am no holy roller but you dont need to be to realize what the consequences of A + B could be. I personally have to agree with Lured In on this one... Just because you are under 18, doesnt mean you shouldn's be heald accountable for your actions.
I dont want to sound like I am making a personal attack because I am not. I just think its foolhearted to not give kids any credit and thats what it sounds like you are doing to me. Kids are smart and if instructed on the proper things of life, they will hold true to them. Just my opinion.

The pill doesnt sound like a good idea to me. It should be by prescription...

[crabbait]

FAZ - No offense taken. I am sure that you realize that you are not the norm (and may have other issues).

My point is that kids should be thoroughly informed and that parents who rely solely on preaching abstinence are often rudely awakened.

Avoiding teen pregnancy (or any unwanted pregnancy) would make the use of a "morning after" pill unnecessary. Abstinence is the best, safest way, but only works if adherred to completely. I am just saying that strict adherrence may be too much to ask for in many instances. Education and readily available birth control can dramatically reduce the need for pregnancy termination.

[Silver Hilton]

I see a lot of people using the term "accountable", and I wonder if they really understand the meaning of the word. My dictionary defines the word as "liable to be called to account; responsible". I don't see the word punish anywhere in the definition. It's strictly limited to identifying the responsible party for a deed.

Demanding that someone have a child because they got pregnant goes well beyond holding them accountable. It's trying to punish them, and severely so, indeed. A pregnant mother is already accountable - she can't avoid being so, unless and until she has the baby and abandons it in a highway restroom, say. The mother is unavoidably accountable for the rest of the baby's perhaps short life.

No, this seems to be about punishing people, female people, who might have had a good time in a societally unapproved way. I hear little voices clucking disapprovingly about all those young people getting it on. And then, the notion that they might get away with it??? The Horror!

There are some fairly significant moral arguments against abortion. The whole killing a baby thing is fairly central, for example. As is, is a life in miserable, molested poverty worth saving a child for? Maybe we should just focus on that spectrum, rather than on how society can get even with randy young teens.

"Let he who is without sin..."

[ 12-19-2003, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: Silver Hilton ]

[kayakfisher]

To be against the morning after pill because it prevents implantation would also require the follower of that belief to also be against the "regular" bcp, and the iud. Our society, and many religious leaders, have already decided that the bcp and iud is totally ethical.

Abstinance works, sure...but that is not much different than advocating the we don't buy auto or boat insurance because we should all drive very very carefully. Mistakes happen...and insurance is very very important when one makes a mistake.

Condoms by the way are one of the least reliable modes of bcp...good for disease prevention...but not as reliable as certain other methods.

M.

m.

[kayakfisher]

By the way...Abstinance works but not everyone is, nor should be abstinant....what the heck is a guy to do when he can't get out to go fishing?!

M

[DF]

Works the same way with Miss Goody Goody and Mr. Hunk (ain't he the cutest). I have seen perspectives dramatically change when it is Mr. I-Preach-Abstinence's "precious" who is suddenly "preggers" at 15. She tends to take up a lot more of the pew.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">CB, you have no clue HOW many times I have seen that EXACT same thing happen.
And to everyone else, not all of us teens are the ‘party’ or ‘crazy’ type. And just because we don’t party and do stupid things doesn’t mean that we don’t have the chance to get into the same trouble. And from my experience, the girls who are mostly ‘sheltered’ by their parents, and who’s parents preach abstinence constantly…. are usually the ones who get pregnant first.

My parents have always educated me in what’s right and wrong, and never came down hard as in ‘you will NOT do this’ its more of, “if you do this, you will deal with the consequences like an adult, and we will be disappointed”

Them saying that geared me to make the right choices knowing that I would definitely deal with the real world consequences. My point is you have to give the kids enough slack to hang themselves, and in my experience, most of them do just fine. Yes, in my high school their were some of drinkers and party type people, but the kids who are doing good things, in the community and around school outnumber the bad apples.

Most of the time as a teen I feel that I am often stereotyped, that’s just not the way it is. Most guys I know aren’t sex hungery monsters…and most of the guys I know are well aware that pregnancy can ruin both their hopes and dreams, and the hopes and dreams of their partner…therefore most every guy I know in high school that went that extra step and had sex would always use protection, PLUS birth control ( NOT the morning after pill)

Also there are a lot of high school kids strongly AGAINST abortion. I myself am also against it EXCEPT in **** and sexual assault cases. I don’t think its right that you can go out, have a few beers, “not to mention blame your choice on the beer” have sex, and then make it all better by going to the doc.

[DAB]

One thing is for shure is that boys (not all of them) Think with their LITTLE HEAD instead of their BIG HEAD.
DAB

[El Shaddai]

Originally posted by Silver Hilton:
Maybe we should just focus on that spectrum, rather than on how society can get even with randy young teens.

"Let he who is without sin..."

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Wow! Preventing the murder of an inncent child is getting even?

Always good to see someone quote scripture out of context with no real understanding what it means. If I understand what you are implying correctly it goes something like don't pass moral judgments unless you are perfect...one small problem...we have these things called laws, right vs wrong, good vs evil, truth vs lies etc....

[2LEYS]

Demanding that someone have a child because they got pregnant goes well beyond holding them accountable. It's trying to punish them, and severely so, indeed.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">That is the problem with our society. Me Me Me. We are not saying the woman should be punnished. We are saying that the child should not be punished (killed) for a "mistake" of the mother and father.

[crabbait]

Ok, one more time for the record. According to the law of the land it is not murder and it is not a child, regardless of your very strongly held opinions.

It is time to put an end to this constant and pointless tirade.

[happybrew]

Sort of like that endless tirade in the 1840's and 1850's, when slavery was the law of the land, and all those darn moralists kept going on about it?

happybrew

[crabbait]

No, happybrew, not like that at all.