"How are the children?"

[Straydog]

At a recent School Board convention I heard the story of the African custom of greeting one another with a phrase that translates to "How are the children?"

The tale goes that the Children are the Barometer that tells how a village is doing, overall. (No, Hillary did not invent the phrase "it takes a village...... )

At any rate, there is an article in todays Medford paper that tells how the children are in Jackson County, the neighboring county to mine, Josephine and one of very similar demographics.

I think this story is very, very telling and the barometric indicators do not look good to me.....

"How are the Children?"
:depressed:

Regardless of who is right or wrong in terms of State financing, waste, entitlements, etc., etc., one thing is undisputable......... the kids that are reduced to statistics in this article well be doing worse without the budget benefits of the Income Tax Surcharge.

Please, vote to support the retention of the Income Tax Surcharge when your ballot is delivered.

Our kids can't wait while we fight it out and we will pay more later as more and more of these kids become the responsibility of the state in one form or another. Many after costing us millions through the consequences of criminal behavior and the subsequent time in custody.

Edit........ it is not just Jackson County......... the children are not well.

[ 12-15-2003, 08:46 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[Hoosier Daddy]

I'll pay for education. I just wish folks would start raising their own kids and stop laying it on the education system. It's not called the "raise your kids for you so you can have all your toys" system, its called the "education system". end of rant.

[El Shaddai]

Originally posted by Straydog:
Regardless of who is right or wrong in terms of State financing, waste, entitlements, etc., etc., one thing is undisputable......... the kids that are reduced to statistics in this article well be doing worse without the budget benefits of the Income Tax Surcharge.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Two minor problems with your post...first, right and wrong do matter as they need to be clearly identified to solve the problem. Secondly, your premise is very disputable. We are spending more money per citizen in taxes, fees and surcharges than at any time in US history. More money is not the answer....we've been down that road for the last 20 years and look where we are....your answer is put your head in the sand and fund waste with the hopes that "we will all just get along..." Naivete is not an option at a crisis time like this....

I have 3 kids....I work with at risk kids....I am a staunch protector of the poor.....just as Jesus is....none of those roles are better served by enabling wasteful government with more money to fritter away.....

[ 12-15-2003, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: El Shaddai ]

[Straydog]

ES.

No one said right and wrong dosen't matter.

You do not know my "answer".

Being a follower of God does not make you God.
Please stop proclaiming to know my thoughts and my "answers".

The fact that more kids will be in poverty and will loose benefits if the sucharge is overturned is not disputable.

[ 12-15-2003, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[Chromaflage]

No disrespect to anyone here....I hear the different viewpoints and, for the most part, understand where everyone is coming from, but dang it I'm sick of working my butt off just to be pick-pocketed by uncle Sam. I have 4 kids - 3 in public school and one in private school in a special edcuation therapy program. Ath this point, they are all 3.0+ students! And it's because WE (my wife and I) take responsibility for their success.

SD - we've been through this before and I don't want to rehash it. But when is enough enough? Ever since I was in grade school, I have heard the moans of the public school system about how they don't have enough funding. It hasn't stopped since...every year, same story, different voices.

EVERY state agency is begging for money and will be even moreso when the income tax surcharge is repealed. Every time the state wants to raise taxes, they threaten us with "education and puclic safety will be cut if we don't increase taxes."

I am being taxed to death and will do what I can to stop it. Sorry, SD, but that's that with that - for me anyway.

(If BL was still around, I'd get pounced for sure)

ORS

[Straydog]

ORS,

Based on your reply, I can only assume that you don't feel paying for prisons "counts" as being taxed.

How many of the one third of kids in poverty and single homes will we end up supporting in prison?
Why does it feel ok to keep pouring money into prisons and the judicial system while asking "when is enough enough?" in terms of education and other programs aimed at keeping them out of prison?

As you say, we have been through this before and my mantra remains "you can pay them now or pay them more later".

I prefer to pay them now. If I felt for one second that they would simply go away if we cut their teachers, cut their extracurriculars, cut their benfits, cut their health care, etc, etc, I might agree with you. The fact is, cutting the programs does not make them go away.

ES mentioned a twenty year comparison.. That would only hold water if we were the same society we were twenty years ago. We are not and therefore such comparisons are of little if any value.

[ 12-15-2003, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[Thumper]

Man, we have been down this same road so many times.

[Chromaflage]

Yup - said my piece - won't be solved here - we are who we are - I'm outta here....

ORS

[Straydog]

Originally posted by Thumper:
Man, we have been down this same road so many times.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Might be a good time to start ignoring threads on this issue and embarking on a long winters nap, Thumper.

I say that because I can gurantee you will be seeing me traveling this road a whole lot between now and February.

Persistance is a virtue. :smile:

[El Shaddai]

Originally posted by Straydog:



Regardless of who is right or wrong.....

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Regardless: Having no regard, in spite of. (Websters) I am sorry to burst your bubble, but I have regard for right or wrong. Lack of regard for fidelity and responsibility to kids is what got us here. Regaining the regard is the answer, not more money funding a wasteful bureaucracy called the State of Oregon.

Disputable: Argument, quarrel. (Websters) By virtue of my response your supposition is disputable and imo, way off base.

I do not know you personally, only what you believe based on your posts. I am observant and therefore I have opinions regarding your posted positions. That does not make me God, it makes me a dissenting poster that operates from a base of absolute truth. Which does not mean in any way I am infallible, it means I try to view all things through the lens of absolute truth....in a post modernist world that really rankles people...which is usually a good sign I am on track.

Someone (?) once said to know the future you only need look to the past....and as I have said many times before; people just don't know what they don't know.

[ 12-15-2003, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: El Shaddai ]

[El Shaddai]

Originally posted by DanS:
I think we've just discovered your problem...........

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I have a problem?

[DanS]

If you're looking for absolute truth in political discussions, you do.

[Lured In]

Stray...getting back to the original post, here are my thoughts.

First I would be interested in seeing national averages for the same statistics, broken down by state, and see where OR falls. (If I had to guess, the 'spread' is smaller than I might think).

That aside, I have always been a big supporter of the responsibilities of the family. Without it, you end up with much of the above issues.

This is a generalization and not intended to be anything other than an example of how I see things working.

It is a cycle, not unbreakable mind you, but what appears to be a discernable pattern. Low income, high school drop out rate, teenage arrest rate, and families around the poverty level. These are not unrelated in my mind. They are a function of one another and an individual or family can enter the cycle at any point.

IMHO more public programs are largely not needed, jobs are. If the Governor would make a commitment to bring jobs to all areas of Oregon (yes that means logging among other things), I would venture to say many of these issues would begin to subside.

I know several folks who have gone on to be very successful utilizing current programs and simply taking advantage of the opportunities that already exist. This includes folks from broken homes, single moms and those that did not finish high school.

It is a problem and we should be concerned. But I honestly can't say more funding is even part of the answer.

Here is a link to a document highlighting the DECREASE in drop out rates since 1998.

http://www.ode.state.or.us/sfda/docs.../dropout02.pdf

[ 12-15-2003, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: Lured In ]

[Conn]

L.I.

Good points. I would like to see the statistics of poverty rates in rural OR from before the ban on logging on federal lands compared to now. Are we not now facing the consequences of these actions? Good sustainable forest management would have provided healthier forests than we have now while providing jobs in rural Oregon.

It is easy to demand the governor commit to bringing jobs to all parts of the state, but hard to succeed. As we have seen our tax structure has chased many business' from the state. My question, what strategic benefit does rural Oregon offer to a business considering relocation? Those communities in the I-5/I-84 corridor offer transportation benefits, but those in central/Southern and coastal Oregon do not have so much to offer. Most of these smaller communities were built on usage of the states Natural Resources, notably timber. It is far from surprising that poverty rates have skyrocketed when the timber industry was effectively shut down in many of these areas.

Is raising taxes the solution. Not in my opinion. Until we find ways to improve the economic situations in these areas raising taxes has the effect of a band aid on a sucking chest wound.

[Straydog]

Originally posted by Conn:
I would like to see the statistics of poverty rates in rural OR from before the ban on logging on federal lands compared to now. Are we not now facing the consequences of these actions?

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I have lived here for 50 years, all of my life.
My father raised us by working in a mill. My mother had to work much of my life because we could not make it on dad's income alone. We were not high living by any means. I couldn't wear converse like my peers........ we couldn't afford them.

The notion that the timber industry was a cornucopia of family wage jobs is not true. Many if not most were out of work for much of the winter.

Josephine County has always had high poverty, even in times of plentiful timber industry jobs.

Do timber industry jobs help? Absolutley.

Are they in any way a cure all? Absolutley not.

[Lured In]

Stray you and I are on the same page as far as the timber industry goes. The point is that is it DOES help. And like all businesses, the presence of industry drives money into other businesses, such as equipment manufacturing and repair, grocery stores, and retail stores.

Conn...there is obviously no simple answer to your question of, "why would a business want to move to rural OR?" I will try to highlight a few.

1. Land costs. Buy cheap in rural Oregon or lease for more in the major cities. I am certain there are additional tax breaks for companies who own land vs leasing.
2. Depending on the industry, costs may not be significantly higher doing business from rural Oregon. For instance look at the average home price in some areas. If I could lower my house payment by 30% by moving to a rural area, I would take the equivalent (real dollars not %) in a pay cut. That equates to additional cost saving in salaries for a company.
3. Transportation costs are a tough one to handle. Infrastructure would need to be improved (97 would need a serious face lift). An airport large enough to handle cargo directly to major cities would be ideal. The cost of developing these could theoretically be offset by the additional tax revenue from income and property taxes.

These are shaky at best, but I am not paid to bring business to Oregon. If I were, I am sure I would find ways to make it happen. The first thing OR needs to do, is stop the hemorraging of businesses that want to leave due to unfavorable tax conditions. That right there would help a lot.

[Straydog]

Lured,

I agree, we are on the same page regarding timber industry jobs. Hopefully we will soon see some salvage logging taking place in the Bisquit complex and that will help a little for awhile.

I think you are missing a biggie in regards to businesses locating in Rural Oregon and that is quality of life.

Despite it's downfalls, this place still offers a premier quality of life.

I also feel you may be buying into the "hemoraging" of business portrail a little too much in terms of the whole state. Yes, Multnomah County has scared a few off but overall I think that is overblown, especially in terms of the whole state.

[Lured In]

Perhaps, I am buying into the hemmoraging issue too much, but then again I guess rural OR would actually have to have businesses in order to hemmorage. :tongue:

Quality of life...definitely. The question is how do you turn that into something quantifiable that would motivate a business to move? Is it desirable? No doubt, but how much is that worth? (rhetorical question.)

[Conn]

I agree with you both on the timber industry issue. Do they help, obviously. Is it the solution, no, but a start. My point is overregulation has eliminated a source of employment and money into those areas. Obviously the money goes not only to the mill workers, but also to other business' supporting a community that has something going for it.

I also agree on the quality of life issues of rural Oregon. Like you both, I would seriously consider moving to a smaller town with lower land costs, and less congestion. The transportaion issue would be a tough one. I'm just happy to hear people speak about economic solutions rather than either we raise taxes or we don't.

Regarding the hemmoraging of business from the state, I do not believe I am overreacting. Lets face it, todays business environment requires competitiveness. If the state/city continually finds new taxes/fees/etc which hurt profitability business will go away.

I manage a division for a large building products trading company. With the threat of increased income tax, further increased property taxes, and increasingly new "fees", our workers continue to ask management if moving to Washington would be a better fit economically for the company and its workers. We have looked into it, but as of now are not moving. We are an old company with deep roots in the state. However the thought of perpetually increased taxes which hurt profitability cause us to reconsider our options. I can see how smaller business' heed the lure of a more business friendly state.

[Straydog]

Originally posted by Lured In:
Perhaps, I am buying into the hemmoraging issue too much, but then again I guess rural OR would actually have to have businesses in order to hemmorage. :tongue:

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Ouch!!!! :grin:

Good one, you got me...........sort of.

Acutally we have one of the largest cabinet manufacturers in the country here. We also have a huge business that is about to almost double called DCS... Diversified Collection Services. They do collections for the Federal Gov. on college loans. They currently employ around 300 people I believe it is and as I say, are about to expand in a big way.

We have a very succesfull wholesale distributor of jewelry supplies that employs over a hundred people and is also looking to expand.

Since I am about the head out the door and will be somewhat safe for several hours, let me also say that in order to draw businesses, we must be sure our schools operate at the highest level possible, are able to stay open a full year and offer employers and employees children the best education in the best facilities possible with the resources at hand.

Business not only wants qualified, educated employees, they also want to educate their own children.
Run down, over crowded, understaffed schools that can not complete a full school year will do much harm in terms of drawing business to any area.

As a friend of mine says, "education and the economy are two sides of the same coin......."
:smile:

[Conn]

Stray,

I actually sell to the cabinet company there, nice operation. Your proximity to the I-5 corridor helps. Whenever I visit I am impressed with the industry in Grants Pass, it does seem to be growing. I would think the communities up and down I-5, and in fact I-84 should have a decent shot at luring business from a transportation stand point.

Regarding schools, I think most people want better funding for schools. However many feel we have been lied to about how are tax money is spent. Each new funding source is met with another cry of wolf the next year. One issue continues to confuse me. We are told the increased migration to Oregon has overcrowded our schools. However this migration had proportionately increased the tax base, and the increased growth in housing has proportionately increased the number of homeowners paying property taxes. So why is this increase in the tax base not allowing for more money to schools?

[Degner]

Vote against it.

Money won't fix it.

Save the children rant a bit tiring.

[Lured In]

Stray...what no mention of Bear Creek? Is Litton still in GP? What about Imation are they still around?

What is interesting about the credit collection firm, is that I almost mentioned "call centers" in my earlier post. Relatively speaking, call centers can be anywhere, as long as the fiber exists to support large volume data and voice transfers. It is a virtual business. From an employee standpoint, the education level required is not as demanding as some positions, but the work experience can be awesome. If successful you can write you own ticket to inside sales and again to outside sales. (Those darn sales folks make all the money. [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img] )

So who is out there recruiting businesses? I can hear them now, "Come to Oregon, bring you money but please don't touch anything. Oh and we are going to tax you into bankruptcy." [img]graemlins/1zhelp.gif[/img]

As far as schools go, I will stick to my guns. They need leadership that doesn't have their hand out looking for more. They need leadership that can do more with less. After all, isn't that how most great "triumph over evil" stories end? When was the last time somebody said, "Wow, that was awesome, they got all they needed and didn't have to change anything!" I am being sarcastic, of course. I know its not simple, but it must happen.

[True]

I'm voting for it. I agree that money doesn't fix everything and that all spending needs to be audited regardless of where it goes. Nonetheless, I am teaching in a school where classes of 35 are currently being held. Will that get us more FTE (Full Time Educators)? I'm hoping so. Qualified teachers is what we need in the class. Your students can't learn very much when the class is half way over by the time the teacher gets through attendance (okay, so maybe I'm being a bit dramatic there).

True

[Straydog]

Originally posted by Conn:
One issue continues to confuse me. We are told the increased migration to Oregon has overcrowded our schools.

So why is this increase in the tax base not allowing for more money to schools?

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">In our Dist., overcrowding due to increased enrollment is not the issue. In fact, our enrollment is dropping and consequently we lose money from that as well.

Since measure 5, all monies are sent to Salem and then granted out based on Average Daily Membership(ADM).

Since the growth in our area is heavily weighted on retirees at this point in time, the increased tax base creates no direct advantage for us because our funding is based on students attending school, not the general tax revenue generated by a particular area.

[Straydog]

Originally posted by Lured In:
Stray...what no mention of Bear Creek? Is Litton still in GP? What about Imation are they still around?

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Bear Creek is in Medford but yeah, they do add a lot to the valley's industry base. I heard they are about to be purchased by a Japanese outfit, as a point of interest. Litton moved out and now Firestone Gems, the jewlery supply wholesaler I mentioned is in their building. I am not familiar with Imation.

What is interesting about the credit collection firm, is that I almost mentioned "call centers" in my earlier post. Relatively speaking, call centers can be anywhere, as long as the fiber exists to support large volume data and voice transfers. It is a virtual business. From an employee standpoint, the education level required is not as demanding as some positions, but the work experience can be awesome. If successful you can write you own ticket to inside sales and again to outside sales. (Those darn sales folks make all the money. [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img] )

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Yes, you're right about call centers. Dell Computer just opened a good sized one in Roseburg. Salesmen making money??!??!? Who told you that???????? [img]graemlins/eek13.gif[/img]

As far as schools go, I will stick to my guns.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I'm glad you live in Washington! :tongue: :grin:

[ 12-15-2003, 10:43 PM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[Straydog]

Originally posted by El Shaddai:
...your answer is put your head in the sand and fund waste with the hopes that "we will all just get along..."

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">You evidently have missed or chosen to ignore the posts I have made that agreed we need to change some things and try to reduce spending. Your description of what you perceive to be my answer is simply wrong.

As for "regardless" and "dispute", my bubble is still quite intact, thank you. Based on the definitions in regards to my take on the surcharge, are you arguing that reducing the budgets for education, health care and social services will not have an impact on children in poverty?

I think you are disputing the need for these programs and how their money is spent. That is far different than the here and now reality these kids will face if the sucharge is overturned.

As for not knowing me beyond this forum, you are absolulty correct. It is with this fact in mind that I ask you to please stop proclaiming to know my answers when in fact you do not. Not based on what I write here, as evidenced by your lack of acknowledgment that I have said many times that we can and need to do what we can to reduce spending and not based on the much larger picture of reality in terms of these issues we discuss here.

CIM and CAM are but two recent issues I have mentioned yet you still insist on mischaracterizing that which I have said.

[ 12-15-2003, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[DanS]

a dissenting poster that operates from a base of absolute truth.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Absolute truth? Really?

You SURE you're not God?

[Straydog]

Originally posted by DanS:
a dissenting poster that operates from a base of absolute truth.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">

Absolute truth? Really?

You SURE you're not God?

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Thanks for helping me see I am not the only one that has picked up on this attitude.

[ 12-15-2003, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[El Shaddai]

Originally posted by DanS:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica"> a dissenting poster that operates from a base of absolute truth.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Absolute truth? Really?

You SURE you're not God? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Yep....sure glad I know Him though...oh yes, truth is absolute or do you prefer something else?

[DanS]

truth is absolute

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">True........it's WHAT you call the truth that leaves questions.

Unfortunately for you, just calling something the truth doesn't end all debate.

[El Shaddai]

Originally posted by Straydog:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Originally posted by DanS:
a dissenting poster that operates from a base of absolute truth.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">

Absolute truth? Really?

You SURE you're not God?

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Thanks for helping me see I am not the only one that has picked up on this attitude. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">You are in good company....Lutz, the Geek and others before you invoked this claim....on one side I am the common denominator...on the other side the common denominator is.......oh, never mind....you guys are too easy.

[El Shaddai]

Originally posted by DanS:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">truth is absolute

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">True........it's WHAT you call the truth that leaves questions.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Actually you are closer than you know.......WHAT is the truth is paramount to success....or as I've read somewhere before...."the truth shall set you free...."

[Straydog]

To proclaim ones opinion is absolute truth is arrogant and self promoting.

[El Shaddai]

Originally posted by Straydog:
To proclaim ones opinion is absolute truth is arrogant and self promoting.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">SD~ Exactly right....now we are getting somewhere meaningful....if not your opinion or my opinion then where does absolute truth originate from and how is it applied today in real life?

[DanS]

Are you looking for "absolute" truth in disusssions about politics, school funding, etc?

I think we've just discovered your problem...........

[Lured In]

[quote]Originally posted by Straydog:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Originally posted by Lured In:

As far as schools go, I will stick to my guns.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I'm glad you live in Washington! :tongue: :grin: </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">...boy Stray that looks like something Lutz would do!?! :tongue:

I didn't move to Oregon until 1997. When was measure 5 passed and what was the intent behind it? If it is not the best situation, why not more of an outcry to repeal it? (Seriously, no kidding here.)

[Straydog]

I would support repealing measure 5 and I suspect we will hear a good deal about that when we start looking at revamping our revenue structure in Oregon.

Trust me, it is being discussed in some circles.......