School Violence...... help me out, please.

[Straydog]

Below is an article about 7 schools in Oregon on a "watch list" and required to submit a plan of action to curb violence in their schools.

Now many consistantly say it should not be up to the schools to raise kids. They say our efforts should be focused on "the basics".
They say schools overspend and waste money on focusing on the bad kids.

However, note that this article doesn't say the parents of violent kids are being put on notice to change. Note it doesn't say parents of violent kids will have to submit a plan of action to deal with their kids.

Also, understand that we now have yet another moving target financially speaking. How much is enough? I wish I knew..... We lost alternative school sites due to lack of money yet the statutes say if we kick these kids out of school we have to offer two educational alternatives for those kicked out.

All of this, plans of action for troubled kids, initiating the plans once they are in place, offering kids alternatives if they can not behave themselves in school, cost money and the needs and associated costs grow daily.

I am looking desperately for answers. Answers that are legal and that will truly help the situation.

One of our schools (North Valley Highschool) is on "the list". I just got notice from the Dist. Office that the local TV news is on campus as we speak. The spin will be the schools can't control the kids and are failing us..... yet, many that will eat that news up are telling us it is not our job to raise these kids and "No" we won't give you another penny to deal with the problems.

Who we gonna call? Ghost Busters are not real...........

Schools in trouble for violence.

[id. painter]

I believe it is a cultural change ,, T.V. and violent computer games are a big influence.
Students now are not disturbed by watching horribly graphic violence. I am shocked at the stomach that even the little girls have now days. id. painter

[skahorse]

IMO the problem is here is the definition of violence. Also, the reasoning behind expulsion. Do kids get expelled for getting in a fight? 10 years ago when I was in school, fights usually ended in detention, maybe (and I stress maybe) suspension. However, never expulsion. (I'm talking fights, not beatings.) I am assuming that, because the articles lists them as a cause, fights are now being punished with expulsion. The zero-tolerance, politically correct posture the schools have taken are resulting in what was considered normal(boys will be boys) 10, 20, 30 years ago as now abnormal. The kids haven't changed. They don't think about consequences. There is always going to be fights. Let it be.

Again, I want to stress that I am talking about fights. Someone mouths off, another one punches, so what... Now, beatings are completely different. These are the kids that need to be expelled. The ones who corner one kid and break bones, bloody him up.

In an effort to curb violence it seems we have created more "societal rejects." Maybe we should re-think our policies.

Now, with all of that said, I know no facts on the subject. I just find it interesting that the article mentions fights as a reason for expulsion and I am going off of that. Personally I find that ridiculous.

--Skahorse

[BrokeItOff]

Madras High School, Seven Oak Middle School in Lebanon, Brown High School in Redmond, North Valley High School in Grants Pass and Douglas High School in Winston

This is interesting. Smaller comunities have issues with violence it seems.

Madras has had issues for years, my step-father went there 35 years ago and still talks about violence there.

Some of the other schools are in communities that have high unemployment and a methamphetamine problem.

I would say this list is more due to community issues and not media desensitization.

[Straydog]

Broke,

You noticed the same trend I did......... several rural schools on the list.

I know Meth is a huge problem in Josephine County and it frankly scares me.

I just checked my files...... North Valley had two expulsions in Oct. One was for possession of tobacco and a 3 1/2inch blade locking knife. These are both against state law.

The other was a kid smoking pot behind the school, also in violation of state law.

I do not receive the background on these individuals but experience and knowing the Principal tells me these were kids likely what we refer to as "frequent fliers"..... ie, they visit the Principal's office often.

[ 11-25-2003, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[Gus Orviston]

The BS that is going on in our schools is also a issue of mine. I do not think putting more $$ in schools to fix the lack of respect isn't going fix this. I am open to it though, how do you buy back respect? I do not think it is smaller class size that fixes it either. Kids are getting away with smack talking the teachers with not negative consequences.

Question: What does it take to get a kids attention? Are they scared of expulsion, or at least suspension? I dunno. For me 20 years ago, you got suspended for repeat fights. I think it was 2 or 3 and you got 3 days off.... come back and fight...you got expelled. yes there were fights, but it wasn't an epidemic.

As for alternate solutions. I am will to pay for them, as long as they are demanding phyiscally and academically aka "Not a fun place". McClarin (sp) is an option/example. Your kids causes issues and is disuptive he/she can go to a place that won't tolerate it.

Who here has kids that won't repsond to this solution?

gus

[ 11-25-2003, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: Gus Orviston ]

Put the little darlings in jail.

[Snapset]

Well you could start by telling the football players to be a little more gentle when another school makes the 4 hour trip down to pay them a courtesy call and gets their butts kicked for the trouble. :smile:

Seriously, what is the nature of the problem? If it is bullying, there are solutions to that, if the counseling center at the schools is willing to take on another problem. What they do is make a list of the bullies, bring them together, tell them there is a bullying problem, and that as leaders in the student body, you would like their help in policing bullying that takes place both on and off school grounds. Of course you don't deputize the punks, but almost all kids will respond positively when asked in the right way to solve a difficult problem like that. Especially when you explain that if this doesn't work another, more expensive program will have to be enacted to solve the problem, and if it is, the money it will cost will come out of the athletics department budget, if there is one any more.

[Straydog]

Originally posted by Snapset:
] Well you could start by telling the football players to be a little more gentle when another school makes the 4 hour trip down to pay them a courtesy call and gets their butts kicked for the trouble. :smile:

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Snap,

"Paybacks are a b...........ugger."
Wilsonville returned our favor for us in the
game last week. It was plumb ugly!! :shocked:

We have had some expulsions for bullying recently, but at different schools. I do like your idea and will share it. Thanks.

[Straydog]

Good idea on the jail suggestion.

The problem is, and I know no one wants to hear this, is that we have a "revolving door" thing going on at our brand new jail because there is not enough money to staff it so it is not being used to capacity.

Only the baddest of the bad are kept for any length of time and these kids will not outrank the wife beaters, rapers and killers. Even the meth heads are being booked and released. Consequently, the cooking and using continues to grow since they know they will be back out on the streets before it is time for their next fix. :blush:

[BrokeItOff]

Growing up my school in far Eastern Oregon did not suspend students. Washing buses, cleaning the school grounds, shoveling snow ect. were the tools used.

As an aside, several years after I graduated I spoke to the superintendant of my school and he said they were being stretched by students who had moved there. It seemed that parents thought the trouble with their kids was due to the urban environment and that rural life would fix the problems.

[Thumper]

Skahorse and BrokeItOff are on track. We have managed to criminalize very typical youthful behavior. Fighting in school use to be grounds for being "jugged" (kept after school), not expelled. Smoking cigarettes, even pot, used to be fairly common. Now the kid gets expelled.

We have P.C. ourselves to death, to the point where kids being kids is grounds for expulsion. Heck, we used to rumble with Benson every Friday afternoon. A few bloody noses. Nobody got expelled.

Silly. Let kids be kids. Sheesh.

[Digifish]

I was commenting to my wife this morning on how society changes in such influential and fundamental ways but in the smallest of increments. It is a common scenario: One vote makes a difference? One drop of rain makes a difference? One conversation makes a difference?

The answer is yes. No denying that. But how does that help?

Your violence problem, Stray, is in the definition of problem and who is responsible for it. Is it the schools problem and responsibility? Yes and no respectively.

Is it the problem of the parents and their responsibility? No and yes respectively.

I think you have perhaps the best approach in your first post when you mentioned the parents. I suggest the parent(s) and/or family are given more of the responsibility. When a serious issue of violence with a child occurs what if any course of action is required of the parents? And I say "required" in the same vein as the district is "required" to have a plan of action to curb violence. Does the District have any teeth to bring to bear on the parents? Pulling Mom and or Dad out of work to come to the principals office for perhaps the minor infractions could clue them into bigger problems coming down the road.

I say let the parents have a few "swats" for their children's behavior. (Yes, we received swats with a wooden paddle when I was in school I have a stinging memory of it. :shocked: )

[Digifish]

Thumper,
I think your answer is probably the shortest path to the solution. :grin: ...if we could get everybody to agree. And I wish we could.

[Straydog]

Originally posted by Thumper:
Skahorse and BrokeItOff are on track. We have managed to criminalize very typical youthful behavior. Fighting in school use to be grounds for being "jugged" (kept after school), not expelled. Smoking cigarettes, even pot, used to be fairly common. Now the kid gets expelled.

We have P.C. ourselves to death, to the point where kids being kids is grounds for expulsion. Heck, we used to rumble with Benson every Friday afternoon. A few bloody noses. Nobody got expelled.

Silly. Let kids be kids. Sheesh.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I agree. So how do we get there? Do we lobby our Legislators to help?

I believe Tort reform would help as well. Much of the Political Correctness has come about as a defense mechanism to ward off lawsuits. Kid gets beat up at school, just as happened when we were kids. But today there is often a parent willing and able to sue the crud out of the School District for not protecting little Johnny and his smart mouth. And there is an attorney ready to take the case and judge ready to award huge amounts of money as a penalty to the district.

[Straydog]

Thumper,

I keep telling you guys.. Moderate! Moderate! Moderate!! :grin:

The conservative side has always been there, it is just that it doesn't show as often as some would like.

I spent the afternoon at my daughter's elementary school. What a treat. I think every person should have to spend a day or three in a school before voting on school issues or funding.

I had one little guy proudly showing me the book he had made. It had all of the elements of regular book with a chapter on themselves, their pets, their favorite holiday, an interveiw with a relative and family tree going back at least 4 generations. Everyone in the class did one. He really wanted to be sure I saw it all and read every word and studied every picture. After school was out I mentioned to the teacher that this kid really seemed to want attention from me. She says "yea, he is so hungry for male attention. His dad committed suicide two years ago..........".... gulp.

I then had a long conversation with my daughter's teacher. He and I have talked a lot over the years as he taught my older daughter and actually graduated from Highschool with my brother. We have become friends over the years. At any rate, we were talking about this issue of parent accountability and how we get people to be responsible parents.

He threw out an idea that I am thinking about. Actually, he threw it out and I modified. The end idea is this........ what if we modified the per child tax credit to be hinged upon a kids performance in school...? In other words, a graduated scale of tax credit based on a kids success in school. It would have to be structured so all families have a shot at earning the credit regardless of their natural abilities, but it just might motivate parents to become involved and take a greater interest in their kids performance in school. I am thinking their could be a behavior element built in as well.

Thoughts????????

[ 11-25-2003, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[BrokeItOff]

It would never happen....though the idea makes some sense. Demographically though it would be biased toward higher income stable families since those kids do better in school already, the target families won't give a hoot about a couple of hundred bucks. This is not PC but it is reality. Maybe a better way to encourage family involvement is to jail parents instead of their children when their kids perpatrate(sp?) a crime. I am only half kidding.

[ 11-25-2003, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: BrokeItOff ]

[HeavyMetal BankFisherman]

I don't understand the criteria for putting schools on the list. according to the article, schools with 500 or fewer students are placed on the watch list if they have more than five expulsions a year. But larger schools cannot exceed one expulsion for every 500 students.

Shouldn't schools like Grant, Cleveland, Benson etc... be on the list as well. Some of those schools have had shootings, stabbings and I know they exceed the one expulsion for every 500 students.

[happybrew]

If I remember correctly, the old former Marine drill sergeant PE teachers were being phased out when I was in school in favor of aerobics and Jazzercize instructors. I say bring back the drill sergeant with no neck, and if a kid gets into trouble, he can help out in the gym the rest of the day!

happybrew

I heard that this was based on disciplinary action and not total violence in the school. Schools that are tougher on the students are more likely to get hit than schools that let things slide. Not quite fair.

[Straydog]

You're exactly right Keta.

We have a "no tolerance" policy at this particular school and are therefore penalized for following it.

This school does draw a rougher crowd than some of our schools and there-fore the no tolerance policy.

It is kind of a catch 22. Many agree we need a "tough on crime" approach yet the state and fed. government penalizes us when we do......

[WheresMyBobber]

Posted by Thumper:

Heck, we used to rumble with Benson every Friday afternoon. A few bloody noses. Nobody got expelled.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Hey - did we fight in an earlier life? I went to Benson and even our football coach would get into the action sometimes. Ahhh.....the good old days. Actually I think you're a few years older than I, but in looking back I think those fights were good for character building. But I'm sure I'm in the minority of people who think that way these days. But I know I learned a few life lessons that stick with me to this day!

I think there were only 16 girls there when I went to Benson, so it didn't take much to get the Benson guys riled up for a fight.

[ 11-25-2003, 10:55 PM: Message edited by: WheresMyBobber ]

[Lured In]

Here's an idea, create 'behavior tickets' (similar to traffic citations) and fine the parents for their children's actions at school. That should motivate little Johnny's mom/dad to deal with him and help fund the schools budget shortfall. [img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img] :grin:

Seriously though, I believe the consequences are the problem, not necessarily the behavior, per se. Schools, juvenile hall, etc all seem to be unable to effectively issue consequences to behaviorail problems. Act up, get expelled. Smoke, get expelled.

There is very little punitive functions in expulsion or detention. In some cases they are self reinforcing, allowing kids to get out of class or into an environment where they are essentially responsible for nothing. While I certainly don't have any great answers, I would agree that throwing money at the problem is not a solution. [img]graemlins/1zhelp.gif[/img]

[wannacatchem]

Just my .02....give authority back to the teachers and staff. They have a ton of responsibility but no authority. Problem is, you can't have one without the other.

I had teachers when I was a kid I was terrified of(read - respect). They were tough, but very fair. Nobody, and I mean nobody back talked them and you had better of had a death in the family, verified, if you missed an assignment. When you got in trouble, you knew what it was for and they dealt with it NOW (swat, run laps, clean the lab, stay after school, write 1000 times "I won't.....) then made double dang sure your mom AND dad knew about it. That ensured the trouble was paid for twice, with interest in my cases(s)
Now if a teacher disciplines a child, everybody in the school district gets sued. Kids know that, and will act accordingly

[ 11-26-2003, 12:22 AM: Message edited by: wannacatchem ]

[HeavyMetal BankFisherman]

I remember back in 1976 getting swatted by the PE teacher with a ping pong racket in a Portland public school after throwing a dirt clod in another kids face. They also took me straight home to my mother. I had to wait until dad came home. He pulled that belt off faster than a blink of the eye. I had welts when he was done. I never threw another dirt clod into another kids face after that. The rest of the body was open limits. My father explained the dangers of aiming for the face. It was all just for fun and I understood. I did not want to hurt anybody. He said hit them in the legs. They will still run. I did and he was right.

Kids these days are different. They want to hurt. It's scary but the truth. When I was in school a switchblade was cool. Knobody thought about stabbing anybody with it. We got in plenty of fights. But they were always fist fights.

Remember the days? Fight at such and such place. Bunch of kids would show up to watch a couple guys duke it out. Good times. Anyway, the most anyone would ever get was maybe a broken nose or lose a tooth. And that was very rare.

Nowadays these kids don't even fight. They just pull a gun. It's just too bad. I don't have an answwr but if someone does. We need it.

[Thumper]

Straydog --- I sense a deep, slow, lava-like but discernable transition in you. Good news! You are becoming more conservative. [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

[Straydog]

It is such a different world than in our day. (I say "our", I am going to hit 5-0 tomorrow and am feeling the need to know I am not the only OLD flatulant on this board!)

Anyway, it is such a different world........ I grew up the fat kid and spent the better part of my elementary and jr. high school years "pounding" or attempting to pound some kid for calling me names and teasing me. Today I would likely be labled a bully and sent to counceling or something. It wasn't until I was about 16 or 17 that I realized it didn't matter who won the fight, it still hurt to get punched!

Then there were the weekly "rumbles" as Thumper mentioned. It was the male social event of the week and we felt something was missing if "so and so" wasn't going to meet "what's his name" up at the pole vault pit at the track field.

Today though, ol "what's his name" might be packing a 9mm and he has likly grown up to believe that is how one settles disputes. You have a problem with someone, you shoot them. End of story.

Another big difference is the occurance of domestic violence and the fact I believe that many kids are packing whole lot of bad baggage these days.

In my conversation with the 5th grade teacher yesterday, I asked her if she had her kids make their books every year. She said no, she actually hadn't done it for a few years, until this year. She thought she had a real good group to have do it. It seems she had her class do it a few years back without considering the makeup and background of her kids. One little girl freaked out because she had had four sets of foster parents and couldn't handle the family tree part. Another had problems dealing with a recent divorce and cried when she tried to write about her family.

In talking with another teacher, my daughter's, about the parental responsibilty thing, I told him how much I admired him and his patience. I had observed in his class and there were a couple of kids that no more paid attention to him than the man in the moon. He had spoken with them several times in an attempt to keep them focused and paying attention. In our later conversation I mentioned I was afraid if I were he I would be hard pressed to keep myself from smacking them up side the head to get their attention. (only half kidding.....) He said "yea, that's what would have happened when we were in school, and it worked then. The problem is, today we have lots of kids that are beaten regularly at home and hitting them sets off all sorts of reactions. Or, we have kids that see mom get beat up at home and to hit them just triggers a whole world of emotions....... hurt, confusion and anger."

Another interesting thing I noticed were these two twins. My daughter had mentioned to me about these two boys that were in trouble all the time. I coud quickly see why. They were obviously not into being in school and made their point very clearly by disrupting the class. Finally, one was sent to the Principal's office. I learned later he has been expelled twice before this year. What was interesting was to learn what their last name is. Turns out I know their father. He and his siblings were in school about the time I was. They were the "hoods" of the town and in trouble a lot. Looks like they have taught their kids well.

As Heavy Metal Bank fisherman said, "if someone has the answer, we need it." The sooner the better.

[pdxkevin]

[id. painter]

O.K. now, I see that you do see the effects of the violance these kids are exposed to,as having an effect.They really do want to hurt each other. I dont think it can be ignored.
And what S.D. says about the kids now ,is right on.
I have a 8th grade boy who has both parents in prison for making meth. He has been to three foster families.
I have a student(8th grade) who was just arrested for meth. which he is getting from his mother.
I have a student (boy) who regularly has to be woke up and brought to school by the school staff.
His mother is in bed at noon when they show up.
I have a student(girl) who had both parents come to "back to school night" drunk.
I have a student that has parents who think it is my responsibility to change thier sons motivation toward his school work, because they cant and have given up.
This list goes on and on.
Society has slipped from a pragmatic (do what works) philosophy to more politically correct approach . The citizens are reflecting that socialistic influence.We Dont put the responsibility on the individual, but on society. Its the systems fault, change the system to fit the individual.It cant work that way . Democracy, You choose to . Socialism, you get to. Communism you have to. The population is starting to think Socialisticly.
We all deserve something just because we are. The kids are getting it from the parents ,,, all the good(less and less) all the bad(more and more). id. painter

[dimwit]

I know its already been said in better ways but I have to give my opinion here. I grew up in rural Eastern Oregon and fights were common. I also had a gun in my car as did most kids every day because I would go hunting after school (or sometimes at lunch or during class. If my kid got into as many fights as I did or was found with a gun in his car, I can't imagine what they would do to him.

I had access to just about any kind of gun or knife imaginable. I NEVER even thought about using a gun to settle the fights I often got into and I always avoided real trouble because my parents were ultimately responsible for what I did and I respected authority. In grade school I got swats from teachers. If my parents found out that I got punished at school by a teacher, the teacher didn't get into trouble, I did. It wasn't the teachers' fault if I got bad grades, it was mine. What I'm trying to say is that kids don't have respect for authority and don't take responsibility for their actions because generally there are no consequences for bad behavior. Suspending a kid from school isn't going to make him think twice next time. Think about it...he gets a day off and since there's probably no one at home, he's free to do as he pleases.

In training horses you can get even the baddest horse's attention by excercising them until they are exhausted. You reward them when they obey and you put them to work when they don't. Even a horse with low intelligence figures out what the difference is between a good decision and a bad decision. I believe strongly in positive reinforcement, but if you don't have negative reinforcement too, you don't show them the full spectrum of consequences for all decisions.

Political correctness has taken away the teachers authority, eliminated competition and physical exertion in PE, and taught our kids that its someone elses fault when things go bad.

Washing the bus, cleaning the locker room, etc. will get more results than suspension. Make them do the punishment AND stay in school.

[Straydog]

The principal at my Daughter's school puts kids to work. There was big pile of dirt behind the school. When kids got in trouble, they spent their recess hauling dirt by the bucket load.
Once that was gone he started having them scrub the walls of the outside of the school.

Of course, there are some parents that will likely call "foul" to this one of these times but so far, to my knowledge, he has not gotten any flack.

We were talking recently about the fairly recent popularity of putting kids on drugs for being "Hyperactive".......... he told me how he used to have those types of kids run three laps as fast as they could before school and at lunch time and they returned to class focused and ready to learn. Now the in thing is to drug them..

Take peace in knowing there are still some that are at least trying to do it right.... :smile:

[Grantspastor]

These are very serious issues. They concern me a lot because they reflect a landslide trend away from basic "rightness". As Straydog and others have observed, these are a generation of kids raised by a growing percentage of people who THEMSELVES are unwilling or unable to comprehend or practice the very things that hold society together. Amazingly the values that make society work correspond closely to Biblical law. Here's the catch...legislation...even Biblical law does nothing to change people inside. I talk to people all the time that perceive "connection" with God as keeping or trying to keep the 10 Commandments, when in fact the Bible says God gave the 10 Commandments to define wrongdoing to people who had no concept of right or wrong, to provide EXTERNAL constraints on behaviour, and to point to Christ. The law of God was never intended as the solution. (As an external constraint only) The real goal is inner change, which God accomplishes personally in anyone who allows it. The Bible calls this "having the law written in our hearts, rather than on tablets of stone". Ultimately the problem is not so much what we DO...but what we ARE...

What I'm getting at is this. If even the law of God cannot legislate away bad behaviour, then civil law can't either. We need it...along with real deterrent enforcement, or there would be chaos, but what is really needed is a "generational" spiritual renewal. Without it there will be serious problems down the road. There are historical precedents for such a thing to happen. It's what I pray for.

I know this is a "Pastoral" perspective...but that's what I am.

[id. painter]

That is why I keep teaching. There are still good parents and good children, lots of them . Every now and then I get to a kid and save his life .By showing him or her that the life situation can change and if you use your brain and work hard you will be happy. i would guess one per year , maybe. They always come back and say thanks for helping them thru life. I can only do my best . sometimes its not enough. id. p.

[Snapset]

Amen to you GrantsPastor. I think that the spiritual renewal you are hoping for won't take place until we are humbled, as people who share the prosperity we enjoy usually are not willing to humble themselves.

We live in a great land with a lot of great people in it but there are a lot of people who are completely off track.

[El Shaddai]

PDXKevin~ Love those cartoons you come up with.....

No neck PE teachers are great...I was terrified of mine.....great idea....

I spend time with some at risk kids....different approaches have yielded different levels of success...currently, I have a kid who is 13 and very problematic at home and in school....he has been medicated for years....etc etc etc....intense physical exercise and extremely rigid boundaries have this kid so dead tired he can't think of doing anything wrong....then when he is not doing anything wrong....positive reinforcement and redirection to "healthier" ways...plus a lot of coaching, role modeling and encouraging.....if he slips it may be a long afternoon of up/downs...if he succeeds we may be out fishing......his principal called his mom the 3rd week of school to see if they changed his meds because he had not been in trouble...in fact, he was taken off his meds...seems a steady dose of farmwork and up/downs and a sharp decrease in tv and video games has cured his ADD....the ACLU may not like it...but it works....expect excellence and teach these young kids two things....integrity and hard work....those two values will take anyone far in this bankrupt society we live in....

Straydog....read "Let Freedom Ring" by Sean Hannity and the "Education Crisis in America" by William Bennett...I think you may enjoy both....both address societal/educational problems which you seem to have a passion for.....

Finally~ It is my personal belief (with hard statistical evidence of course) that the root of all these issues is the abdication of the male role model in the home. I would encourage each of you to spend time with your kids..regularly...if you are inclined, help at risk kids...it requires compassion and patience but if we don't start taking control of the situation and helping others with our service (not words or more government programs) we will lose this battle.

[Straydog]

El Shaddai,

Thank you for what you do and the book leads.
I will put them on my Christmas list!

Happy Thanksgiving!

Dog

[ 11-26-2003, 10:18 PM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[HeavyMetal BankFisherman]

Dimwits got it right.