stir it up

lost_sailor · 11-20-2003, 07:58 AM

The pot, that is ... the old war debate pot ...

I'm looking forward to the right-wing take on this, it's an excerpt from a weblog written by an Iraqi woman living in Baghdad. You can read the whole blog HERE
to put it in context. She's writing about the US bombing of Iraqi neighborhoods.

The wonders of the Internet -- this MAY BE written by a teenage kid in New Jersey. Even so, doesn't it point out our misunderstanding of the culture of terrorism? Responding to violence with bigger violence results in ...

"People in Al Awja suffered as much as anyone, if not more- they weren't all related to Saddam and even those who were, suffered under his direct relatives. Granted, his bodyguards and others close to him were from Tikrit, but they aren't currently in Tikrit- the majority have struck up deals with the CPA and are bargaining for their safety and the safety of their families with information. The people currently in Tikrit are just ordinary people whose homes and children are as precious to them as American homes and children are precious to Americans! This is contemptible and everyone thinks so- Sunnis and Shi'a alike are shaking their heads incredulously.

And NO- I'm not Tikriti- I'm not even from the 'triangle'- but I know simple, decent people who ARE from there and just the thought that this is being done is so outrageous it makes me want to scream. How can that ass of a president say things are getting better in Iraq when his troops have stooped to destroying homes?! Is that a sign that things are getting better? When you destroy someone's home and detain their family, why would they want to go on with life? Why wouldn't they want to lob a bomb at some 19-year-old soldier from Missouri?!

The troops were pushing women and children shivering with fear out the door in the middle of the night. What do you think these children think to themselves- being dragged out of their homes, having their possessions and houses damaged and burned?! Who do you think is creating the 'terrorists'?!! Do you think these kids think to themselves, "Oh well- we learned our lesson. That's that. Yay troops!" It's like a vicious, moronic circle and people are outraged?"

kamloops · 11-20-2003, 08:19 AM

Think that pretty much says it all.
If you look at your link in the upper right hand corner of the "un biased" news oranizations that reguritate this communist propaganda.
No, I wont waste my time reading this anti American garbage.

Straydog · 11-20-2003, 08:22 AM

According to some they are supposed to think it is all worth it.......... hey, they are being sacrificed for 50 gazzillion others that are supposed to be feeling "liberated"... they should just suck it up, according so some on the far right.

'Sides, they are one of "them", you know... [img]graemlins/eek13.gif[/img]

[ 11-20-2003, 09:25 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

tommy2915 · 11-20-2003, 08:32 AM

More stray dog GARBLE............

freespool · 11-20-2003, 08:58 AM

Tommy let us know what Rush's take on this is.

free

lost_sailor · 11-20-2003, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kamloops:
... "un biased" news oranizations that reguritate this communist propaganda.
No, I wont waste my time ...

Now that's what I'm talkin' about! Excellent closed-minded knee-jerk response!

I missed that whole communism part.

Bush's rhetoric this morning is "they (terrorists) hate freedom, they hate free states."

Really? Is it remotely possible that they hate greed and arrogance more than "freedom"? Come on, who hates freedom?

Straydog · 11-20-2003, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lost_sailor:
Bush's rhetoric this morning is "they (terrorists) hate freedom, they hate free states."

So THAT'S why we're spending billions of dollars and thousands of lives to make them a "free state", huh? [img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img]

[ 11-20-2003, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

lost_sailor · 11-20-2003, 10:55 AM

Let's not confuse R-ush with B-ush ...

roadsend · 11-20-2003, 12:04 PM

"...when his troops have stooped to destroying homes..."

These destroyed homes have been used as points from which to shoot at Americans and store munitions. The inhabitants are lucky these homes weren't destroyed with them still inside.

DanS · 11-20-2003, 01:23 PM

"We're lucky AND free.........hooray!"

CATCH AND EAT · 11-20-2003, 01:30 PM

"Could have been written by a 14 year old from New Jersey". From the way it's written I'd believe that.

Let's see....terrorists do not operate from military bases so we just can't hone in and toss some missles at a nice target like that. Terrorists could care less who they kill as long as someone ends up dead they win. That way they can blame the U.S. U.S. retaliates and strikes "a perceived" strong hold in supposedly Old Mother Hubbard's home. Some innocents die and again it's the U.S. of A's fault. Hmmmmmm.....just can't win when it comes to war. No one said it was neat, clean, and fair. War=death and destruction. Always has always will.

This peice is nothing more than anti-American propaganda and should be dismissed as such. The sufferings it describes may be true as war is ugly however when you are fighting an enemy door to door innocents will get hurt.

Please write the terrorists and ask them to not hide behind women and children so that they will make easier targets and better publicity.

Thanks for wasting my time with this thread.

lost_sailor · 11-20-2003, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CATCH AND EAT:
Thanks for wasting my time with this thread.

If I only knew how I had forced you to both read and respond !

I know there's more Heartless Tough Guys out there! Let's have it!

I need a Thumper comment! I'll share it with my bleeding-heart-love-hippie friends!

kamloops · 11-20-2003, 02:41 PM

Thanks Bernie,
[img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]
Real Tough Guys
Hiding in Schools

Hiding in Mosque [img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img]
Killing Kids, Women and Old People

Blowing up Synagogues, .. pricless "Not in Our Name" < since the link doesn't work, and the rest of this post is all little hard to understand, this statement was removed >.
It's all Al Gore's fault, he invented the internet.

I found this link today on the Not in Our Name Web Site. www.aljazeera.net/homepage
Lot's of good reading for your Liberal news.

[ 11-20-2003, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: STGRule ]

CATCH AND EAT · 11-20-2003, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lost_sailor:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by CATCH AND EAT:
Thanks for wasting my time with this thread.

If I only knew how I had forced you to both read and respond !

I know there's more Heartless Tough Guys out there! Let's have it!

I need a Thumper comment! I'll share it with my bleeding-heart-love-hippie friends! <hr /></blockquote>Please don't lump me in with the heartless crowd Lost one as I do feel for the innocent which are truly "victims" of a more than difficult situation. Your arguement to this point is non-sequetor. As for your Hippie friends, you said it not me.

Peace Baby. :tongue:

Oh, and I read it by choice because I believe in PRO-CHOICE reading. So it's all my fault and I will now fall on my sword. [img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img] NOT!!!!

[ 11-20-2003, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: CATCH AND EAT ]

Thumper · 11-20-2003, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lost_sailor:
I need a Thumper comment! I'll share it with my bleeding-heart-love-hippie friends!

Nah. Not worth the effort.

willametteriveroutlaw · 11-20-2003, 05:00 PM

The problem here is the U.S. is dealing with a society that has been raised to hate the U.S. No matter what crap people spew about islam being a peace loving religion, if you reed what the koran says it is against it, non tolerant to other beliefs, and prides martyrdom. But unfortunately we have been lead to believe by the media otherwise.. Look at isreal there the bad guys even though they are constantly under attack from within. When the Palestenians realized that they couldn't beat isreal in a war, they began immigrating into the country to push them out that way.

[ 11-20-2003, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: willametteriveroutlaw ]

Snapset · 11-20-2003, 09:32 PM

I really regret that we did not have an opportunity for a better informed debate before all this happened, with more information available to back up our arguments, whatever they may be.

It seems we are being called upon to believe an ever-less believable government, that they are doing the right thing, and left to hope that they have a more compelling argument for going to war than apparent evidence would lead us to believe.

As for my position in the debate, I would have liked to have more time for diplomacy and avoided the Iraq war completely, but that is yesterdays news.
The situation we are in now, having bombed Iraq into an invalid state ruled by anarchy, is we have to try to make it better before we leave. We all knew that would not be easy before this whole mess started, so instead of increasing our foreign reputation as the Instant Society, lets have patience and try to get a democratic Iraqi government to the point that it has hope for surviving. I know this is going to cost many more American lives, but we started the war, we are responsible for the reconstruction. If we don't, then the ruler that will arise from the anarchy will by definition be the one who will go to the most extreme lengths to stay in power. That is not what we want. Hopefully that is not what the Iraqis want either. If Iraq refuses to maintain a democratic government and instead reverts to a theocracy, then let them live with the consequences.

Lost Sailor, you only started this thread because you know you have a chance of winning a debate over the war whereas you have already acknowledged, deep in your heart of hearts, that your ducks are gonna get picked off of the duckpond and taken into the Beaver lodge for a stiff stripped-willow caning. GO BEAVERS!

GOT2FISH · 11-21-2003, 12:01 AM

I watched a T.V. show along time ago that was taping an speach by Louis Farican he had his punks beat and throw a white camra man out of the building[so much for a peacfull nation of Islam] Is the answer to all this to just sit back and say hey Mr Terrroist I know youve had a bad day and we needed to move those Towers anyway,Or hey we know you hate us but come on over and let us teach you so you can us it to kill us later,Here let me give you a hand building a reactor so you can build a bomb.Theres two sides to every story and I like our side better than theres, Whats happening now is bad no matter what side you look at it from but do we have a choice? If so I'd like to here it. If some of you were in control how would you deal with this issue?

crabbait · 11-21-2003, 01:24 AM

After 9/11 the world mourned with us. Every western nation and most of the rest of the world was behind us. They knew that any action based on the search for justice was justified.

Instead of seeking justice, we elected to attack a nation that had very little if anything to do with the 9/11 attack. We rationalized with the threat of weapons of mass destruction. Our President promised that he had knowledge that we did not share and that it would all be made clear if only we supported his effort.

The rest of the world strongly told us that they did not support this action. That it reeked of vengence, not justice. We did not listen. Instead we arrogantly told the rest of the world that we did not need them and that we could go it alone. In so doing we alienated nations that we may spend generations trying to regain as our friends.

Now, we are embroiled in a war that will not end. No one is anxious to come to our aid. We bear nearly the full burden financially and, more importantly, with the blood of our people.

All we can do is continue to send more good men and women and more of our dollars into the bottomless pit of Iraq. We cannot withdraw until we erect some form of government that will stand at least long enough for us to get out. Any hope for a true democracy made up of the historically embattled factions of Iraq is incredibly, fantastically optomistic.

Meanwhile, we have created a new generation of terrorists. We have instilled hatred for the U.S. in people who once supported us or were at least undecided.

What can we do? Minimize our loses whenever possible. Remain vigilant to the counter-attacks that will inevitably come. Do our best to transfer as much responsibility for Iraq to the Iraqi people and the U.N. as quickly as possible.

In 2004, we must resoundingly tell the world that we realize the enormous mistake we made when we elected G. W. Bush by overwhelmingly voting him and his cronies out of office.

lost_sailor · 11-21-2003, 05:43 AM

Mommy's not dead, she's just propaganda.

Beavers defense ... Jackson, Newson ... communist propaganda, I won't waste my time on such drivel.

GO DUCKS!!

kamloops · 11-21-2003, 05:58 AM

Yes, when your right your right.
The US caused those oppressed women and child
murderers to fly those planes into the World Trade Center.
Seventeen different WORTHLESS UN amendments later
the creep still refused to cooperate with the rest of the World including the French and the Germans, icons of the current liberal socialist
thinkers in this country.
Does any true American give a rats rump what some ****** in Europe thinks about us?

If the hand wringers in this country think Bush was going to sit and appease these lunaticts, as Bubba did for 8 long years, sorry about that. :smile:

Straydog · 11-21-2003, 05:59 AM

Once again, leave it to Crabbait to offer the voice of reason and logic. [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

Yet another clear illustration explaining why he gets the big bucks to moderate this place!! :grin:

GO BEAKS!!!!! (I'm a Duck fan at heart. My daughter's a Beaver......... what's a Dad to do beyond pay tuition????????)

[ 11-21-2003, 07:02 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

Straydog · 11-21-2003, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Does any true American give a rats rump what some ****** in Europe thinks about us?

AAAhhh........ more tough talk without the distraction of fact.

It is not communists that worry me although I am not aware that the terrorists practice communism.

Yes, when someone hates our country enough to fly planes into our buildings, it does give me cause to give a rats rump, although that has little, if anything, to do with being in Iraq.

CATCH AND EAT · 11-21-2003, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lost_sailor:
Mommy's not dead, she's just propaganda.

Beavers defense ... Jackson, Newson ... communist propaganda, I won't waste my time on such drivel.

GO DUCKS!!

Then why did you start this thread Sailor? You knew what you were going to get from us republicans on this issue.

As far as drivel, go back and re-read your link. And yes, mommy, daddy, and baby are dead. :depressed: I feel for them and their families just as anyone would but when the enemy hides behind the innocent good people will die. WAR is what it's call. You may now continue to ignore your own thread.

[ 11-21-2003, 07:59 AM: Message edited by: CATCH AND EAT ]

kamloops · 11-21-2003, 07:02 AM

Straydog

If the problem was not Iraq, than it would be North Korea.

Than if President George Bush Jr. did apologize
to Sadam and let his thugs rule Iraq again, it would still be Bushs fault for pulling out.
What's was your point again?

Straydog · 11-21-2003, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kamloops:

If the problem was not Iraq, than it would be North Korea.

Than if President George Bush Jr. did apologize
to Sadam and let his thugs rule Iraq again, it would still be Bushs fault for pulling out.
What's was your point again?

I think this is a valid question to ask back..... :whazzup:

My answer is:

1. These aren't "*******" we are dealing with.

2. No one has provided strong evidence that the events of 9-11 are related directly to Iraq.

Now your turn........ what is your point? "Than it would be No. Korea.......". " Than if Pres. Bush...."?????? :whazzup:

BTW, please note I commended Crabbait for his opinion. That can be extended to inform that I agree we are there now so we need to clean up as best and as fast as possible and get the heck out.

[ 11-21-2003, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

Thumper · 11-21-2003, 07:48 AM

5-10 years of occupation should about do it. It won't be done in less.

The economy is booming, and now employment is following the positive trend. Bush will win in 2004. If the coalition gets Saddam or Osama it will be a landslide. Americans like leaders who lead.

Then the bleeding hearts will have four more years to moan and groan.

Won't that be fun? :grin:

2LEYS · 11-21-2003, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Then the bleeding hearts will have four more years to moan and groan.

Won't that be fun?

Annoying but fun at times.

Straydog · 11-21-2003, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thumper:
The economy is booming, and now employment is following the positive trend.

"booming"???????

Well, how about a little 'thud'.

Booming??? How does one find their way to your "Happy Place"?

..."if you see me tonight,
with an illegal smile,
it don't cost very much,
but it lasts a long while...

..won't you please tell the man,
I didn't harm anyone,
No, I'm just tryin' to have me some fun...."
John Prine

CATCH AND EAT · 11-21-2003, 07:59 AM

Straydog I can agree with your last sentence that we are there and we need to clean it up and get out as fast as possible. But you need to tell that to the Iraqi's that keep suiside bombing and getting in the way of a successful recovery for the rest of Iraq. Just think, if they would knock off the crap they are pulling we could be out of there in a year. But because they are resisting we will be there an unfortunate long long time.

lost_sailor · 11-21-2003, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CATCH AND EAT:
You knew what you were going to get from us republicans on this issue.

I was talking about the game ... Beavers, Republicans ... all on the same page in my book!

BTW, communism is an economic system that I don't think has anything to do with 9/11, the "War on Terror," Saddam or the Civil War. That's why it's so laughable to see y'all spin.

This administration promised to bring people together, our nation is now more divided than it has ever been in my lifetime. :depressed:

skahorse · 11-21-2003, 08:03 AM

Crabbait:

Quote:

Instead of seeking justice, we elected to attack a nation that had very little if anything to do with the 9/11 attack. We rationalized with the threat of weapons of mass destruction. Our President promised that he had knowledge that we did not share and that it would all be made clear if only we supported his effort.

Speaking of rationalism... I believe the moniker at the time was that we would go after all terrorists, and the countries that support them ... By taking over Iraq, we took out a major terrorist nation (whether they were responsible for 9/11 or not, they were a terrorist sponsor) and legally(and justified, not only WMDs but Sadaam's direct refusal to submit to the U.N.) gave ourselves a foothold in a region that wreaks of terrorism. Strategically this is one of the best things we could do. And on top of that, there was a justified reason to do it. Now we are able to put pressure on every country in the region to rout out thier terrorists (sure, Iran said they were rounding them up, but were they really? Kind of like the Palestinian's rounding up thier terrorists, it's laughable.) With the threat of 100,000+ soldiers sitting across the border from you, you can be damn sure that Syria is busting thier butts to help us.

Remember, All Terrorists and the countries who support them. Not just Al Qaeda.

Quote:

The rest of the world strongly told us that they did not support this action. That it reeked of vengence, not justice. We did not listen. Instead we arrogantly told the rest of the world that we did not need them and that we could go it alone. In so doing we alienated nations that we may spend generations trying to regain as our friends.

I don't care. This is an issue of national security(going after ALL terrorists). If Germany doesn't agree that we need to protect ourselves, O-well. This makes me think of the liberals telling me I don't need to carry my handgun to protect my self. It's my choice, not yours. P.S. Germany/France are the communists that Kamloops is talking about, come on people its not that hard... Just use your brains a little... :grin:

Quote:

Now, we are embroiled in a war that will not end. No one is anxious to come to our aid. We bear nearly the full burden financially and, more importantly, with the blood of our people.

No one ever said fighting the war on terrorism would ever be quick, easy or cheap. As a matter of fact I believe that Bush said it would be long, hard and expensive... :whazzup:

Quote:

All we can do is continue to send more good men and women and more of our dollars into the bottomless pit of Iraq. We cannot withdraw until we erect some form of government that will stand at least long enough for us to get out.

I will take it a step further, we can not withdraw until we rout out all terrorists. We CAN NOT sit back and ignore whats going on over there.

Quote:

Any hope for a true democracy made up of the historically embattled factions of Iraq is incredibly, fantastically optomistic.

Many people said this about Japan.

Quote:

Meanwhile, we have created a new generation of terrorists. We have instilled hatred for the U.S. in people who once supported us or were at least undecided.

I can almost 100% guarantee that there weren't any undecideds. The vast majority already hated us, they were taught everyday in school and by there parents to hate us. And the ones that didn't hate us, they are the ones that hated Sadaam, and they are still don't hate us.

These are nations of hate and jealousy. As much as the liberals rail again hate, you would think they would support these actions. Do we need global hate crime laws?

--Skahorse

[ 11-21-2003, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: skahorse ]

Straydog · 11-21-2003, 08:06 AM

You're right Catch and Eat.

The problem is, these people are not going to get out of the way..........!

We must only look back at the last couple of hundered years to know that these people are not going to change and all of the dead people we care to donate to the cause will not change that.

Bush's advisors knew that and still know that. At the very least they could have been honest and told us we were embarking on a never ending journey of death and increased hatred towards our country.

They deceived us. Period.

Straydog · 11-21-2003, 08:19 AM

Quote:

No one ever said fighting the war on terrorism would ever be quick, easy or cheap. As a matter of fact I believe that Bush said it would be long, hard and expensive... :whazzup:

But he was not honest. He did not tell us this is an unwinnable war.

Quote:

I can almost 100% guarantee that there weren't any undecideds. The vast majority already hated us, they were taught everyday in school and by there parents to hate us.

And they continue to be taught that daily. And many that may not have hated us will certainly become a bit perturbed when they see that we have destroyed their homes, killed their relatives and thrown their lives into chaos. I seriously doubt that many are telling themselves or being told that this is going on to further a higher cause and "Yea, your world is pure chaos right now but hey, they (americans) are doing this for our own good."

The point is, there is not a finite number of terrorists, there is an infinite number because new ones are taught to be terrorists daily. Either thru their own people's propoganda or our actions against their innocent "collateral damage" neighbors.

[ 11-21-2003, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

Gus Orviston · 11-21-2003, 08:25 AM

If you believe that, I have an email from a guy in Africa that needs you to give him a money order for $1000 USD. And in return he will give you $100,000. Wow, you could make a bundle on this one, cuz I get these emails weekely.

Oh, and I like fiction too.

gus

CATCH AND EAT · 11-21-2003, 08:28 AM

Lost Sailor, I realize what you meant but the statement seemed to fit your mood of the post. So "Drivel" it is.

skahorse · 11-21-2003, 08:48 AM

Straydog:

Quote:

The point is, there is not a finite number of terrorists, there is an infinite number because new ones are taught to be terrorists

So are you saying we ignore this and do nothing about it? Doesn't really seem like a feasible solution to me...? Or do we go back in to a reactive state and wait for another 3,000 to be killed, and then attack that group? And then wait for another 3,000 to be attacked and attack that group. And so on.

For once, we have an administration that has the balls to be proactive!

Gus O,
Who were you talking to? Or were you just addressing everyone on this thread? :grin: [img]graemlins/stupid.gif[/img]

--Skahorse

[ 11-21-2003, 09:49 AM: Message edited by: skahorse ]

Straydog · 11-21-2003, 08:53 AM

Quote:

So are you saying we ignore this and do nothing about it?

Obviously too late for that.

I say we should not have invaded Iraq. Now that we have, we need to determine how many lives we are going to sacrafice until we admit we cannot win this.

Just enough to rebuild and retreat or do we keep filling the funeral parlors indefinately?

Thumper asks continutally "How much money is enough for eductation?" I ask, how many lives is enough to admit we can't win this war?

[ 11-21-2003, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

kamloops · 11-21-2003, 09:03 AM

My reference to "*******" to clear up anyone who missed my point in previous posts.
I assure you, those are not the Young Replubicans out there
marching in the street, protesting the President. Again, I do not wish to deny anyones right to speak out or assemble. Why don't they all get jobs, or at least take a bath.

I doubt most of those people are members of the
Democratic Party, or if they are, they are way way out there.

There are as many Anti American and Anti Bush
groups as there are Conservative groups, and if you wasted your time reading all the propaganda these groups publish, it would make anyone confused.

As for my referance to the "not in our name" group, the people who started that group are not members of any Democratic party that I know of.

I do not think it's the War that the left hates,
it's really all about President Bush and his Christian beliefs.
That's my take on it.
I really could care less if anyone agrees or disagrees.

skahorse · 11-21-2003, 09:24 AM

Straydog:

Quote:

Obviously too late for that.

I say we should not have invaded Iraq. Now that we have, we need to determine how many lives we are going to sacrafice until we admit we cannot win this.

Although I appreciate your attempt to side-step my question, I will not let you get away with it.

You don't think we should be in Iraq. We've determined that. My question is in the future, possibly near future, what further lengths do we go to protect our country? Do we resume our reactive responses and wait for another attack, only to respond? Or do we keep up what we have been saying since the attack by going after All terrorists and those who support them. Should we now back off of that because the seem to have gotten the point since we haven't had an attack since? Or do we invade Iran if they start seriously posing a threat to us by harboring more terrorists? Where do you draw the line for protecting yourself and your family?

--Skahorse

Straydog · 11-21-2003, 10:15 AM

SKA,

I didn't try to sidestep anything. I misinterpreted your question.

I believe we should proactively stop current aggressors, find those responsible and hold them accountable. If we have concrete evidence of planned attacks or aggression we should take proactive action to stop them.

We still do not have Osama.

We had no concrete evidence of planned aggression by Iraq. Iraq was not the aggressor on 9-11.

[ 11-21-2003, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

Thumper · 11-21-2003, 02:33 PM

Thanks goodness most Americans have the backbone to win this war. We are not a nation of quitters, despite the views of some.

It took half a decade of fighting to win WW II, and another decade of fighting holdouts thoughout the Pacific to establish the peace. More Americans were killed in any one week of fighting in that war than in the entire last year of fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq. The sinking of a single ship in that war killed more Americans than we have lost in Iraq. And you dare to say that the war against terror is unwinnable.

It took hundreds of billions of dollars to re-build Europe and Japan. It required the combined mobilization of the entire citizenry of the U.S. and many other countries for years. Many said that it couldn't be done, that Germany and Japan would always be warlike nations. America changed that forever through the sheer force of willpower and economics.

We are in no less a struggle now. Our parents and grandparents would be ashamed to read of this "unwinnable" war.

[ 11-21-2003, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: Thumper ]

Straydog · 11-22-2003, 06:37 AM

Different times, different war and much different enemy.

Even the President has talked about what a different war and enemy this is from all past wars.

No, my father in law as well as other WWII vets I have discussed this with are not ashamed of my beliefs, they share them....

So yes, I "dare" share my beliefs rather than roboticaly accepting the politically correct, feel good rhetoric of some.

[ 11-22-2003, 07:40 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

tommy2915 · 11-22-2003, 01:26 PM

Here... here... Thumper. [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

[ 11-22-2003, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: tommy2915 ]

kayakfisher · 11-23-2003, 07:56 PM

Anyway we look at it...We are in a bad situation. If we leave Iraq before the country is stable..ie it is democratic, self sustaining, and Saddam is gone forever, we are bums and a lot more innocent Iraqi's will likely be killed by the current terrorists there.

If we stay and finish the job it is going to take a very very long time, and it is going to be very very expensive, but at this time it is worse to leave than to finish it up. The Bush administration is to be severely faulted however for not having been realistic about the time, manpower, and money needed to stabilize the place. This might prevent him from getting a second term, and the resistance (terrorists) in Iraq know that, so they will be pushing very hard to up the ante a lot before the next presidential election.

If we are there to liberate the place the citizens of Iraq need to show some support...by giving info to our soldiers that will allow us to route the current resistance out. Only when this happens will the Iraqis be safe from the terrorists in Iraq...and if they are unwilling or unable to do this...we will not succeed. The terrorists cannot sustain this effort without the help and silence of the citizens around them. The iraq borders need to be secured, which is not so easy without the will of the Iraq citizens and enough of our own soldiers.

As usual, democracy cannot be given, it has to be taken, and if we don't have the support of the citizens of Iraq we cannot give them democracy.

No one should be so naive as to think this military action was taken for principles...it may have been done for perceptions of national security, but in it was not done to liberate Iraq. If Saddam were to be trusted and if he were thought to be good for "us"...he would have been left alone, no matter how many of his people he killed and tortured. This action was taken as a proactive military action...to avoid problems in the future. Whether that is good remains to be seen...since the final outcome is not yet clear. What is clear is that we are not as safe as we liked to think we were...and the acceptance of that idea is what the 9/11 terrorists intended maninly...to show that we are not as safe on our own shores as we thought. In that regard the terroists have been very successful, and we will in time loose some of our liberties here if we allow that to happen. I think the real reason we invaded Iraq was that it was the safest place to do a military action that could have a justifiable moral outcome (getting rid of Saddam) at a hopefully limitted cost to our own lives, and it could give notice to the rest of the world (ie Saudi Arabia, Iran, North Korea, Pakistan, Indonesia, and ?) that we are willing to do a preemptive strike if those countries cannot or will not route out the terrorists and extremists in their own country. There is a possibility that the Saudi ruling family will fall in our lifetimes...and if it falls in the hands of an unfriendly regime and cuts off our oil we would have no choise but to invade the place, or find an alternative source of oil. Iraq is that alternative source, that we could possibly have justification to liberate.

I am not passing judgement on this foreign policy in this forum...because it is not clearly right or clearly wrong, because we were in a bad situation to start with. Our security depends on being safe from attack, and also on having access to foreigh oil...that is plain and simple.

Still, if we are going to invade a place, and set it up to be a stable situation we need to do it right, and we need to admit that it will take a lot of time, money and manpower. Unfortunately we did also blew off most of our allies in the free world by how we did it...

M.

skahorse · 11-24-2003, 06:47 AM

kayakfisher:

Quote:

The Bush administration is to be severely faulted however for not having been realistic about the time, manpower, and money needed to stabilize the place.

When did Bush ever say this war was going to be short, easy, and cheap? Everyone keeps faulting him of this, however, I don't remember one time when he came out and said "Iraq will be a democracy in 6 months, it will only cost about 500 million, and we will lose... max... 50 soldiers..." Look at whats going on in Israel. If you think this was going to be an easy war, you sir are the naive one.

Quote:

If we are there to liberate the place the citizens of Iraq need to show some support...by giving info to our soldiers that will allow us to route the current resistance out.

This is happening. Recent studies have shown that 80% or more of the country is in favor of us being there. It's only the minority 20%(and the media, might i add) or so that are bucking the system. As soon as the good Iraqis are trained and are strong enough to apply pressure to thier own resistance, will we be able to get out. That will take years. But will be worth it.

Thumper, [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

--Skahorse