Now it's personal

[lost_sailor]

Last night I found out that one of the 16 soldiers killed on that helicopter in Iraq was a member of a family that I know.

Not exactly my close personal friends, but good people from my community. Our sons play football together, our daughters are on the same soccer team. Instead of coming to the end-of-season pizza party for the soccer team, they were in South Carolina to bury their son-in-law.

If I didn't already think this stupid war was a waste -

Who else has felt the "personal touch" ?

[Straydog]

Lost Sailor.

I am sorry, really sorry. This sucks.

I have not been personally involved any way near this. We helped a family when the dad was over there in the Guard but he came home. The family struggled a bit in his absence but did fine and dad and husband came home alive.

Again, I am sorry.

I only wish I could believe his sacrafice was not in vain. Unfortunately, I can not.
:depressed:

[Thumper]

Perspective is important. An especially important thing when trying to evaluate a war. About 300,000 troops have served in Iraq and Afghanistan. About 300 coalition troops have died. 99.9% have survived.

50,000,000 people now have a chance at freedom. The countries of Iraq and Afghanistan are returning to the family of nations, where children (boys AND girls --- a novel concept) are educated, mass graves are discovered (not created), electricity and hydro utilities work for the first time ever, and terrorists die quickly when found out.

Americans are spending about $1,000 per person on this war. Most of that money is being spent right here in the U.S., creating jobs for Americans. The economy is already reacting, with the highest corporate investment and personal spending increases in the past quarter ever recorded.

3,000 innocents died on 9/11, more than the number of deaths at Pearl Harbor. Through the vigorous and relentless conduct of this war on the turf of the bad guys, Americans have been spared another attack on our soil for the past 26 months. The good guys are indeed winning, despite the bleating of the liberal media.

Perspective is indeed important.

[drhall99]

The one thing that I am most confused about is that we are sending the National Guard over to Iraq. I've always thought that their purpose was in the name. You know NATIONAL GUARD. Who's nation are they guarding now? :whazzup:

D.

[BrionLutz]

Thumper,

The argument that "only a few folks have died or lost arms, legs, etc." is always a loser. We used to hear how wonderful Vietnam was because we lost "fewer people than are killed in traffic accidents each year". I know you didn't mean it this way but it's also insulting to those who have sacraficed life and limb.

You also fail to mention the many thousands of Iraqi citizens, just as innoncent as those in the Trade Towers, who have lost life and limb.

You keep mentioning 911 as though there is any connection to Iraq. There is no connection.

No 911 connection, no weapons of mass destruction, no clear and present danger to the US, no reason to be in Iraq. Bush Jr's original reasons were all lies. His current justifications are so vague as to be irrelevent. The actual facts are that it has damaged the US militarily, politically, economically and has been especially damaging to US interests in the war on terrorism.

Bush Jr has failed everyone, particuarly those whom he is asking to make the ultimate sacrafice. He hit a new low recently in blaming the sailors on the Abraham Lincoln for the White House banner, "Mission Accomplished". The "photo op" was going to be a major visual in the Bush Jr re-election campaign. Now it is going to be used by whoever runs against him.

In looking for our next president, to me, the only viable choices are those who were smart enough to see through the deadly fraud and oppose the US war in Iraq before it started. Those are the only people who are not tied to the failed policy. Those are the only people who can get the UN in and the US out of Iraq.

Brion

[willametteriveroutlaw]

Do you really think that when the U.N. comes to iraq things will magically get better and our boys will be sent home? Things won't change, just a different group of politicians making the same mistakes but the liberals will be happy . Many of us have forgotten about Kosovo (bills police effort), we still have our boys over there.. Weren't they only supposed to be over there for a couple of years and were on like 7 or 8. As much as I dislike this war, I think bringing in the U.N. would be worse. What about somalia (bills once again) where we let the warlords take all of the food and then run us out?
There certain facts that cannot be denied in this war: Saddam supported terrorists, Him and his sons murdered countless #'s of their own people, and no matter what happens the muslim extremeists will never like americans and there going to target us whereever they can.
BTW,
I like your perspective Thumper.

[2LEYS]

Have you seen the Sadaam torture tapes? Have you seen the "**** rooms?" Have you heard the countless stories of torture and fear that the Iraqi people had to deal with daily? I suppose we should have stayed out of WW2 as well. Cause Hitler was such a nice guy.

We went into Iraq because he had weapons of mass destruction. He was given an ultimatum to tell us what happened to them. And unlike our previous president or the U.N. we did something about it.

300 lives in exchange for millions of people to live free and without fear is a bargain.

I mourn the loss of each soldier that dies. But they signed up to protect our country.

As far as the reserves go. That is what they signed up for. I know a guy that was scrambling to get out after 9/11. Seems he was just in it for the cash.

This country used to be made of men.

[Chromaflage]

The media chooses to focus on the deaths of our soldiers and tugging on heart strings when people are called to duty. They choose to neglect and abstain from reporting the actual progress that's been made over there. If the freakin' liberal media would report the truth about what's happening over there - including the big picture - the sentiment here would be much different.

I'm really sick of the arm chair generals' going off on what should or shouldn't be with respect to the efforts to protect our country from further terrorism. I know people who are there and who have been there. Those soldiers are so frustrated with the narrow media coverage that is taking place.

BTW - this is the week during which we are supposed to be HONORING those who are serving and who have served to protect this country and the rights criticize it. How 'bout resisting the urge to slam our military this week, huh? My dad is a Viet Nam vet and my brother-in-law is a Maj (currently nominate for Lt. Col) in the USAF. He's already had two TDY's over there with more to come. He and my sister have 2-year old triplets. Their attitude? Serving is their lives. They live with whatever is handed to them. And they do it willingly - for all of us.

For those who have served - thank you and God Bless each and every one of you.

ORS

[ 11-09-2003, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: OregonRedside ]

[lost_sailor]

Originally posted by Thumper:

Americans are spending about $1,000 per person on this war.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">And 300+ families have spent A LOT MORE

3,000 innocents died on 9/11,

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Which had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Saddam Hussein or the Iraqi people.

Americans have been spared another attack on our soil

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">B***S***

[love2fish]

BTW - this is the week during which we are supposed to be HONORING those who are serving and who have served to protect this country and the rights criticize it. How 'bout resisting the urge to slam our military this week, huh?

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Well said OregonRedside [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

Thanks,
love2fish

[GOT2FISH]

Freespool I for one am in the 50 and older group and belive it or not some of us can and will kick butt when it comes to defending our country!! You have to remember age has no meanig when it comes to GOD COUNTRY AND FAMILY. I spent 6 years serving my country and would welcome the chance to go and fight for it! I tryed my hardest to sent to Veit-Nam but by the time I got in it was winding down,but evertime I look at the flag or listen to Lee Greenwoods proud to be an american a tear is never far behind.I will never be able to pay the debt that the over 50000 soldiers that gave there lives in Veit-Nam.But if I was called I would be burning rubber to airport.I cant think of a more honorable way to lose your life the protecting others,and it really dosent matter what your opion on the war is,its a right that you have that has been paid for by the BLOOD of thousands.So to all serving this great nation of ours I personaly thank you and to all that have lost loved ones I feel your pain. Thanks

[BrionLutz]

2LEYS,

As far as how bad Saddam was, do we have to keep posting the pix of Rummie shaking hands with Saddam and supporting him in making war? Powell, Rumsfeld, et all are responsible for Saddam being in power so claims that they are now saving Iraq from Saddam is total hypocrisy.

US has a long history of supporting the Saddam Huseins of the world. Fascinating that Bush Jr makes a speech to say how we have supported many of the dictatorships in the Middle East with no good result. That those in the Bush Jr admin are largely responsible for those misquided policies seems to elude him.

The reasons for going to war in Iraq were lies. Nothing is going to overcome the fact that we have no real reason for going in or being there now. That is the ultimate insult to US troops.

Bush Jr hiding behind the troops, putting the troops in front of his failed policies, as he is doing by blaming the sailors on the Abraham Lincoln for his "Mission Accomplished" banner, shows a total lack of character and an admission of the failed policies.

As far as the UN replacing the US, if anyone thinks that 1,2, 5 years in Iraq with thousands of US troops killed and tens of thousands more wounded is going to produce anything more than an Islamic state similar to Iran, they are fooling themselves. The longer the US stays, the more anti-American will be the resulting the government when the US finally leaves. The faster US troops are replaced by the UN troops, the faster Iraq will stabilize and the more likely it will have some kind of secular, progressive government.

As far as "300 dying" being a small price, it's 345 killed, 2,500 wounded though you may have noticed the recent news articles how the Pentagon will not release wounded numbers and will not let the press interview returing wounded.

Have you seen pix of Bush Jr visiting the wounded? Nope...but you have heard stories of wounded not getting treatment or beneifts when they come back.

If there is another terrorist attack on the US, the Iraq war and the Bush Jr admin's failure to focus on terrorism vs. the war of convenience in Iraq will be to blame. Domestic security is underfunded and anti-terrorism programs overseas are starved for resources that are being poured into Iraq.

Brion

[2LEYS]

just ignore him bite your tounge just ignore him bite your tounge just ignore him bite your tounge

[ 11-09-2003, 08:25 PM: Message edited by: crabbait ]

[freespool]

Got2fish,let me tell you something, you did not miss anything by not being in VietNam,further there were 58,228 casualties in the VietNam campaign. You and I need to make sure nobody sneaks in and takes our fishing hole. Leave the heavy work to the kids. But anyway it's great to be patriotic and all,but don't let it blind you.

[GOT2FISH]

Freespool the reason I said more than 50000 was because I wasnt sure if it was 57 or 58. I hate to get on soap boxes like that,but sometimes I just lose control. This is not pointed at you but I get Ill when I here about protests such as the one in Portland were people have the right to block traffic burn up our tax dollars and yes even burn our flag under the freedom of speach act [that apparently you find on isel 7 at wally world] because they didnt do anything to deserve it. As you can tell I'm babling again. Sorry if I offended you that was not my intent I just want the respect to be givin to all those who lay down there lives so we can enjoy the freedoms we have!

[freespool]

Straydog,you know we're in trouble when we put grandpas on the front line. There are men and women in their 50s over there fighting this war. Not exactly the riot,flood and natural disaster guard they thought they were signing up for. Last weeks Oregonian said they were thinking of ramping up the draft. Lets see how many of these good guard folks reenlist after this fiastco in the desert.

Free

[kayakfisher]

Well if Bush and Congress had thought it all out ahead of time we would not be in this mess. Now we are stuck long enough to at least try to stabilize the place or we will be even worse off.

This war is not going to make our country safer, and in fact may have the other effect. And in the end, it will also make people distrust our government evern more, and make our allies mistrust us even more...so when there is real information that needs to be acted our credibility will have been damaged enough to make the recruitment of international support much more difficult.

I am sorry for the family the poor soldier.

I hope that all the soldiers there now or later will not take opposition to this war as a disrespect for their hardships or sacrifice. It is largely out of concern for them that people will oppose this conflict...but in reality we may have to finish what we started to prevent loss of life. What a terrible mess!

Bush has really made a mess of things it seems, and Congress, both parties, didn't have the courage to vote their consciences. Instead they felt so insecure as to vote the way they felt was politicallly expedient at the time.

M.

[roadsend]

It always gripes me when people use the loss of one of our brave soldiers as an excuse to bash the efforts our military is making to protect our nation.
When I was in Viet-Nam (1968-69), I resented the politicians, celebrities and other fellow travelers who contributed to the deaths of our warriors by giving aid and comfort to the enemy. I still resent them.
Giving the enemy the impression that we will cut and run under political pressure (like we did in Viet-Nam) kills American soldiers.
I hate to think of what would have happened if this attitude existed in WWII, after all, Hitler was not an imminent threat to America only to Europe and a few Jews.

[Thumper]

Roadsend --- Exactly. The terrorists read the newspapers and public opinion polls too.

[Straydog]

Interesting........... someone posts a thread telling of his personal anguish over the loss of someone he knows and that affects his life and the war supporters depersonalize it and point to the "higher cause" they see in this war.

Sailor asks if anyone else has been personally affected and unable to answer just that question, we re-hear all of the rationalization some hold for this false war.

Tell me Thumper, WRO, 2ley's the other supporters of this war, is this what Bush calls "compassionate conservatism"?

Sailor, my thoughts are still with your acquaintance and the hurt and loss those kids, his wife and others will have to endure for the rest of their lives. I guess when Dad isn't around the Christmas tree with them this they are supposed to find peace by telling themselves, "hey, it was worth dad getting killed, someone I will never know may have been prevented from being *****. Thank God he took Dad instead......."


:depressed:

[FishaholicAZ]

I dont agree with the media... I dont agree with their very biased views. It seems that we all forget the Columbine video... You know how the Canadian press and the American press are so different. Yeah, they only show us tragedy and why is that?... Is their no good thing going on over their to report on? Is everything about politics and pushing their agenda? Should the media even be playing the politics card?...

My parents and grandparents told me of the things they had to indure under communist rule. It was much like what was happening in Iraq. There was oppression and killing and unfair treatmet to so many. Saddam is not a good man and whether we want to believe it or not, we did the right thing by going in there. I was to chicken to sign up when I was 18 for the army. God knows my dad wanted me to and still does but I can't. I have to much going on here now but if there was a threat and they needed me, I would go. This is our country and I am thankful for those soldiers out there and the ones before them that died and made it possible for me to have the freedoms that so many of us take for granted now.
We may have gone into Iraq for the wrong reason and the 345 deaths is tragic. No body wants to hear that but these boys and girls know what it means to be in the armed forces. War is possible and so is dieing. I commend all of them that are there and pray for their safe return. We needed to go there. We needed a strong presence there. Yes, you can claim that if the UN takes over things will be peacful but I doubt that. Terrorists will terrorize them as well. No one is safe from them. We need to finish what we started, with or without the UN and we will succeed. We are succeeding now and I believe this will not last that long. Peace will prevail in the middle east because there is a presence, our presence.

Obviously I may have some things backwards and that happens. If I am mistaken, I will listen to what else is said and I will address it. However, Bush did what he thought was best for the Iraqi people. You ask any Iraqi and the majority will say thank you for getting Saddam out. Now, we need to work on getting this together and slowly working our way out...

Thumper - I like what you had to say.

Lost Sailor - I am sorry for your friends. My prayers go out to them and their loss...

[FishaholicAZ]

Stray, you are wrong... And that is the scarry thing about our country today.

I feel for Sailor and that is tragic. It is tragic for the many innocent Iraqi's who died at the hands of saddam as well but that doesnt matter that he was over there preventing that. He did his part and we are thankful for his ultimate sacrifice. Yes, his family will now have to indure but at least they can be proud of their dad for fighting for the liberation of others.

There is never a positive in death. There is always someone affected. All we can do is be supportive and I want lost sailor to know that I am deeply sorry for the loss. As I said before, my prayers go out to that family... I to have friends there and it is always on my mind. I pray for everyones safe return as I hope all of us are doing...

[TheRogue]

I guess I just don't understand most of you "warmongers" . I have never once read anything on this board bashing the military!!! There's been nothing but support for the soldiers and their commanders on the ground. In this aspect, it's very much different than Vietnam, where the public was very hostile toward the soldiers themselves.

The bashing going on is for the leadership of this little soiree, and should continue to be so...I don't believe anyone here blames the person on the ground for much of what's going on.

So when any of you ask that we shouldn't "bash the military" during this time around Veteran's Day, please pay a little closer attention to what you're saying.

My .02

TR

[roadsend]

Straydog
"Interesting........... someone posts a thread telling of his personal anguish over the loss of someone he knows and that affects his life and the war supporters depersonalize it and point to the "higher cause" they see in this war."

The original poster depersonalized the issue with the statement "If I didn't already think this stupid war was a waste -". This IMO had the effect of politicizing the posting.

Many of us have lost relatives, friends, and comrades-in-arms in the defense of our nation. I personally have lost all three of the above. Each loss is a personal and national tradgedy. As I said in my posting above "It always gripes me when people use the loss of one of our brave soldiers as an excuse to bash the efforts our military is making to protect our nation."

While what happens on the other side of the world is no solace to the family member of a lost soldier, I am sure that the relatives of the 300,000 or so dead men, women and children being dug up from mass graves this week are grateful for our efforts and sacrifice.

[Straydog]

Roadsend,

His last sentence is:

Who else has felt the "personal touch" ?

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Yet, you and others in their replies ignored the basis of his post and used it as a step up to your soapbox to support this war.

Interesting where one's true feelings leads them to go with these sort of posts.

One sentence out of the whole post references the politics of this war and many dwell on only that part.

Then, you take the "he started it" agrument to defend yourself...

As I said oringinally, "interesting.."

[ 11-10-2003, 07:50 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[roadsend]

Straydog
"One sentence out of the whole post references the politics of this war and many dwell on only that part"
Just like one lump of manure taints the whole punchbowl.

Like I said earlier: "It always gripes me when people use the loss of one of our brave soldiers as an excuse to bash the efforts our military is making to protect our nation."

[CATCH AND EAT]

Lost_sailor, sorry for the loss. :depressed: We have friends and aquaintences over there right now. Praying for them each day.


Straydog is right. Nice job of getting off topic. And Brion Lutz, will you ever learn to shut up at the appropriate time?

[lost_sailor]

Thanks ... but you don't need to be that sorry for me. I never met the young man who died, or his wife. I know his wife's parents and siblings. It just hurts a little more because of that connection, brings the loss a little closer to home. I can't claim it's my loss.

I also don't recall EVER slamming the military. I am very grateful for their service every day. My grandfather served in WWI, my dad served in WWII, I have a brother-in-law in the reserves - I'm not going to slam the people who defend us.

I'd just be a little less angry if I could believe this young man died defending our country, our "freedom" or whatever. I don't believe it. I'm afraid they're dying for Exxon, Halliburton, and re-election for the Bush crew.

[ 11-10-2003, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: lost_sailor ]

[Straydog]

Roadsend,

Just as

"It always gripes me when people use the loss of one of our brave soldiers as an excuse to bash the efforts our military is making to protect our nation."

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">, it always gripes me when people use the alleged protection of our nation as an excuse to downplay the reality of our kids dying daily.

I guess, as Thumper says, it is all perspective.

Alleged national security vs real people dying.

[Hoosier Daddy]

LS, sorry to hear the news. I'm also sorry for all that have lost their lives so far.

I think the most important reason for Veteran's Day is to remind us that so many folks have put their lives on the line in service of our country. Whether they ended up in a war or not, they signed up knowing that they may lose their life in conflict in the name of the USA. That deserves our utmost thanks. Whether they went to war or not, they were willing to risk their lives.

[roadsend]

Straydog
" it always gripes me when people use the alleged protection of our nation as an excuse to downplay the reality of our kids dying daily."

Believe me. I know this reality on a personal basis. No one I count as a friend downplays this reality or this loss.

If you think that the threat to our nation is "alleged", you are living in dreamland.

[EZ Limits]

I am saddened by the deaths of our soldiers in Iraq. I feel particularly sorry because, in my opinion, their deaths have little to do with protecting our freedom or our country. I hope the families find solice in the belief that their deaths were warranted.

One way I can rationalize these deaths is that the soldiers that are dying are volunteers. They choose to put themselves at the mercy of our leaders, and probably voted for Bush. So long as the people that are dying believe in their leaders and the cause for which they are dying I guess there is not much I can do about it.

The talk of re-staffing draft boards worrys me. If my sons were drafted and killed in Iraq it would be extremely difficult for me to accept that their deaths were necessary.

If you all think this country is polarized now just imagine what it would be like if kids were drafted and sent to fight in Iraq. It would make the current e-mail strings in "Life in General" look like an ice cream social.

[Smj]

To all the pro Iraq war people who continue to spew crap about us anti Iraq war people failing to support our soldiers.

READ WHAT THEROGUE WROTE OVER AND OVER AGAIN AND AGAIN UNTILL IT SOAKS IN!
Thank You

My deepest sympathies to the families and friends who have lost loved ones in this mess of a war.

Smj

[DanS]

because they didnt do anything to deserve it

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">And here I thought that being being an American was all you needed to be protected by the First Amendment.

So is there a list of those who "deserve" their Constitutional rights, so I can check to see if my name is on it?

[Straydog]

Originally posted by fishchaser:
These folks knew from the beginning what was going to happen. They knew since 1991 when we didn't march into Bahgdad.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I do not for one minute believe that.

Even if they THOUGHT they knew what they were getting into, unless they had "been there, done that", they in fact did not know what they were getting into.

For many, the allure of the recruiters and their marketing is what got them into this, not knowing they were going to Bahgdad to get shot.

Please, don't attempt to insult my intelligence.

[fishchaser]

These people train for this every month and YES, THEY DID KNOW. I knew and I am retired. You just don't join the military and not expect to fight. Would you go to work and not expect work? Give me break, talk about insulting intelligence

[Straydog]

Until a person has been involved in live combat, they do not know what they are getting into until they experienced it. I know too many vets that will confirm that to believe otherwise. Excpecting to fight and really being able to grasp what that entails and how that works are too very different things. Truly knowing what one is getting into entails the really knowing and understanding what war is all about. Until one has experienced it, they do not.

I don't care if it is combat or tiddley winks, you may have a perception of what it will be like, but until you have experienced it, you do NOT know what you are getting into.

Are you trying to make be believe that training with dummy loads with guys you can safely assume to do not hate you and everything you stand for is the same as live combat against people that would rather kill you than look at you?

Again, do not insult my intelligence.

[ 11-10-2003, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[roadsend]

Reserve and guard units are integral to the Army and Air Force total force concept. Almost half of our airlift capacity is reserve. All or almost all of our civil affairs units are reservists. There are many other examples but the bottom line is we can't fight a war without the guard and reserves. Every guardsman and reservist who is working his or her butt off, on and off active duty knows this.

[fishchaser]

That I will give you. No, they do not know what they are getting into until it happens. The mental attitude, the fear, the (believe it or not) adrenilin rush. The hidding under the cot while Scud missles are aimed at you Or being on the roof taking bets on whether or not they will hit. No they do not know that part. But they do understand that they are putting themselves in harms way. And they feel deeply about protecting the freedom that EVERYONE is entitled to regardless of there race.

To this day the only ones who would know this is a veteran. That 1000 yard stare is something I feel doesn't need to be in the eyes of our teenagers, but if that is what they are willing to sacrifice I will back them in any way or form. I do not want to be the first on the block, you might say. But the heart of the these young boys and girls is our future and we must do what we must do.

[ 11-10-2003, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: fishchaser ]

[GOT2FISH]

DanS Maybe I didnt put that the right way. The point I was tring to make was during the Viet-Nam war many ran to Canida and then were welcomed back with open arms,many complian about the way things are and dont even vote.I was told when I was a young buck that men had a six year commitment to the armed forces, I dont know for sure if that was true or not,but this is what I meant when I refurred to the ones that desirve it! Sorry if I didnt make it clear!

[BrionLutz]

C&E,

Nope...way too much of an American dreamer to ever "learn to shut up"...kind of an American tradition to speak up.

Thumper and 2LEYS started posting global justifications for the deaths of US service people. Minimizing the loss by saying they are "small" and "justified". And the we saw others trying to hide those failed polices behind the service people, claiming that anyone who questioned the policies was "insulting" the service people. Those statements should always be challenged.

It is also fair to point out the errors in the facts. They didn't seem to realize that Rumsfeld and Powell are responsible for Saddam Hussien being in power and committing all the crimes they now tout as justification for going to war.

It is interesting to also note that Bush Jr rejected the "Saddam is a bad guy" argument when selling the war to the American public. He stated we had to go in not because Saddam was a "bad guy" but because he had weapons of mass destruction, had connections to the 911 terrorists and that this combo represented a clear and present danger to the US.

Those reasons were proven to be lies and Bush Jr rejected the argument that Thumper and 2LEYS (and Bush Jr) now promote to justify US soldiers being killed.

We have a right to ask whether the price paid is justified and a right to state that in this case, it is not. That's a pretty hard thing to say but the responsibility goes to those who put them in harms way for very poor reasons. As some have pointed out, it's a misuse of the National Guard system. We are increasing numbers of NG members "voting with their feet" and not re-enlisting because they don't feel the deployments are justified. The NG is setup for a real war situation, not a vague geo-political long term occupation of foreign oil fields in a country whose population is hostile to our presence.

When you see people in the streets of Iraq celebrating each time US soldiers are attacked, you really need to ask hard questions. It's bad to blame "the media" for showing the facts on the ground or to try and hide bad policies behind the soldiers with false claims that the soldiers are the same as the policy that put them there.

Brion

[CATCH AND EAT]

Brion,

Just learn when the tradition of speaking up is of merrit and when silence is golden. [img]graemlins/eek13.gif[/img]

[ 11-10-2003, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: CATCH AND EAT ]

[fishchaser]

Remember one thing. Being a retired military person I understand. These folks knew from the beginning what was going to happen. They knew since 1991 when we didn't march into Bahgdad.

Everyone of them VOLUNTEERED. That means nobody Shanghied them or put a gun to thier heads. They knew that the regular army had infiltrated the guard and reserves.

We were reformed after 1991 to get called up. Clinton cut the size of the military and the only way to make up the differnce was to use the Guards. The State of Oregon, if you did not know, has the highest deployment percentage of the whole United States.

That is because we were picked by the Chief of the National Guard Buereu, to have what is called an "Enhanced Infantry Brigade". You can thank our beloved own Major General Ramond F. Reese who happens to be the Chief of the National Guard Buereu, for this. He was born and raise in Bordman Or. He also has a large ranch over there who happens to sell wheat to the Iraqi's. At least when they were not in a state of War. He feels the State of Oregon has the BEST troops available and he wants to show the world that we are.

I myself would be with my fellows in arms if I wasn't medically retired. But remember, We are an elite group of people. We are willing to die for our country, no matter what our leaders political back ground.

I am sorry for your loss, but Being a military person, I know that there were only two places that man wanted to be. When he was at peace, he wanted to be at war. Now that we are in war, he wanted to be home. Nothing can train you for that. My family, to this day, cannot understand why I did not use my single mother status to get out of the gulf, but I would not. He was doing what he was trained to do. He would not have wanted it any other way.

Sleep easy. Your military is on watch.

[ 11-10-2003, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: fishchaser ]

[Clackamas Drifter]

I originally read this post, and after getting fired up, decided not to write anything. However, after reading some of the recent posts, I feel it necessary to express my opinion. Not to pick on anyone, but I must say that the sarcastic statement made by stray dog about the kids sitting around the christmas tree talking about how they are glad their father died so someone they dont know didnt get ***** perfectly illustrates the main reason that we have the problems in the world that we do. Nobody cares about anyone else. All the &lt;pacifists&gt; in the world are too dam affraid of getting hurt, or of putting themselves in a situation where they might have to sacrifice one thing in their precious little self centered world, that they refuse to look at whats is going on and make any effort to help anyone else, or make any difference. They hide in their own little world, trying to block out anything that they dont want to have to deal with, and hope that all the little problems of the world go away. They think dropping a nickel or a dollar in the salvation armys collection tin at christmas time fulfills their moral obligation to help others, and they can feel good about helping someone. If they ignore the big problems, someone else will deal with them. Well, the U.N. decided that well, iraq called our bluff, we are going to hide in our little world until the problem goes away...someone will deal with it. Well someone did deal with it. We dealt with it. We had to come and clean up the mess that everyone else refused to deal with. And the selfish thought that their father dying wasnt worth saving 1 person or a million people from being ***** or murdered is not only a disgusting example of how people have no other real compassionate thought towards any other humans in this world, but it disgraces them. These soldiers died to help other people. They sacrificed themselves for the good of the nation, and the world. And any family memeber, friend, or countryman that scoffs at that fact, and tries to claim that what they died for was trivial, disgraces themself, and insults anyone who has fought, or died for their country. Period. Only an ignorant moron would be under the false impression that the world was better off before we went into Iraq. Only an ignorant moron would believe that going into Iraq had nothing to do with september 11th, and had only to do with a score Bush had to settle with Hussein. #1 The world is a better place. It is a better place because there is one less worthless piece of S*%^, who has no reguard for any form of life is in power. #2 Invading Iraq had everything to do with sept 11. Sept 11 made us realise that we have to protect ourselves. And it is not enough that we defend ourselves once we have been attacked, we must defend ourselves by preventing an attack. By eliminating a threat before it harms the U.S. and its citizens. You cannot eliminate fire damage by fighting a fire, you can only eliminate fire damage by preventing a fire. The same is true with anything. Car accidents, gang violence, and national security. In addition to the fact that it is proven that Hussein gave terrorists support, he also voiced his mallice towards the U.S. and expressed his desire for the U.S. to fall. Hussein had been caught lying about weapons with the potential to hurt us, and could not account for weapons he admitted to having, that he could not account for. It is from experience that we have learned we must prevent 9/11 from happening again. And we must do this by stopping threats before they are able to harm us.
Just to appease you Mr. Lutz, I will mention the Iraqi citizens just as innocent as those in the trade towers. Actually, there are hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi citizens that lost life and limb due to the unhuman cruelty of Saddam Hussein. And how there are millions of people whos lives will now be spared because he is no longer in power. But I wont stop there. I will also mention all the people, just as innocent as those in the trade towers, that were killed due to his attempted military conquest to obtain control over the countries that surround him. And you say no reason to go in, no weapons of mass destruction, no clear and present danger. Well lets ask ourselves this.If there was a child, seen at school with a gun, admitted to everyone that he had a gun in school, had used a gun against other people inside and out of school before, but claims to have no gun now, are we to believe him? Say he will let us check his bck pack, and will let us check his coat pockets, but will not let us check his pants pockets, do we just allow him to continue on in school, no questions asked? Or do we deal with the problem, call the police and protect the other innocent children? And as far as us having the long history of supporting dictators Brian, what is this history? Are you refering to President Bush, when he supported communist North Korea by giving them the technology to launch a satellite into space for campaign contributions, and the technology for the launching of satellites was then used to power their ICBM? Oh wait, no you cant be referring to that, because that was good ol' Bill Clinton that did that. It also disgusts me that you claim that the united states is there to occupy oil fields, when we have already made it clear that the money from Iraqi oil is not going to us, but to the Iraqi people. Yet the largest countries that opposed the war, were those that held interest in Iraqi oil. As far as the nation guard is concerned, they are doing exactly what they have been trained to do, guarding our nation. Whether you, or any other Bush hating liberals see that, that is what the point of stopping a threat before it hurts us is. You say we need to look at the presidential candidates that opposed the war to begin with, well maybe what we need to do is disreguard the opinions of people who hated Bush, and who hated and opposed the republican party before any of this every happened. And maybe we need to disreguard the opinions of people who so blindly look at war as something bad that should never happen. They look at war as something that should never happen, reguardless of what another country does. People need to wake up and realise that, while war is one of the most terrible things in this world, it brings pain and suffering to everyone involved, the fact is that war is sometimes the only solution. Period. And that the sacrifices made during a war are made for the good of the families of the people that made the sacrifice, and for the good of the families that made no real sacrifice. What was done was not done with lies, was not done with hidden interests, and was not done with disreguard to the lives of our troops. What was done was done in the defense of our nation, and our world. What was done, was call upon those brave, wonderful people who made the decision to offer their lives to this country, and ask them to potentially make the ultimate sacrifice for the good of their country, for the good of those who may not know them, and for the good of those human beings that may even hate them. There are people out there that will disreguard this. Will try using made up facts, or isolating certain aspects of this war to make it seem unjust and trivial. Thats fine, millions of American have died throughout U.S. history to protect your right to think and express your incorrect opinions; given you the freedom to belittle their sacrifice for what they know is right. I just felt it necessary to express my opinion. And if I insulted or offended anyone....good, you needed to be insulted and offended; maybe that will put you on a path of enlightenment, and allow you to open your eyes. For anyone who has lost a loved one in this or any war, my heart goes out to you.
Alex

[ 11-15-2003, 07:41 AM: Message edited by: STGRule ]

[Thumper]

Say there, Drifter, you're not related to Dampainter are you? My fine mind detects some similarities. :grin:

[Clackamas Drifter]

No sir, I have never met the gentleman. Althought, I went back to see what it was he wrote, and I can no longer find his post.

[Boedy]

Clack Drifter, [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] Way to go saved me from having to post such a long one myself as I feel you made most of my points for me.

Too many people are trying to turn this into Vietnam for political reasons and that is BS but seems to be the only strategy the Democratic Party has .


I am a Vet myself (Gulf 1 & El Salvador) and take some of the commits made by people on this board who have obviously never served a day in there lives laughable at best and insulting at worse. People should refrain from committing on something they obviously know nothing about first hand and fully expect other people to do for them. It’s easy to sit back and reap the rewards that the country provides it’s another to go out and secure them. I will continue when I cool off a touch and can write with a bit less emotion.

[ 11-15-2003, 08:36 AM: Message edited by: Boedy ]

[fishchaser]

Ditto

I wish I would have thought out my train of thought when I wrote my bit.

Congrats Drifter. I think you summed up everything I was trying to say.

[lost_sailor]

Nice tirade.

If we are going to start wars against countries that MIGHT be a threat - just exactly where do you draw the line?

[2LEYS]

Drifter,

Drifter and Boedy,

Thank you.

[img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

[Joe Schwab]

Amen brothers! [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

While watching the Congressional Medal of Honor special on Veteran's Day I heard the comment by one of the President's who was presenting the medal. I believe it was Harry Truman, who said " I would trade the office of President for The Medal of Honor".

Truth; You don't get one of those unless you put yourself in harms way and make some kind of selfless sacrifice for your fellow man.

[ 11-15-2003, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: Capt. Hook ]

CH,
And most die earning it.

[Boedy]

Originally posted by lost_sailor:
Nice tirade.

If we are going to start wars against countries that MIGHT be a threat - just exactly where do you draw the line?

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">What your suggestions for dealing with the real terrorist threat or an unfriendly country that may have WMD or the ability to make them in a hurry.

I swear if you say leave it to the U.N I will fall out of my chair laughing.

[ 11-15-2003, 08:04 PM: Message edited by: Boedy ]

[tommy2915]

You Know this is a all volunteer military. There is no draft. I feel bad for all the soldiers that lost there lives. But thats what keeps us free. As far as the bush bashing. Just think of what kinda shape we would be in now if gore would have won. Or what kinda shape we will be in If one of other choices get in . (Pretty scary thought). We all live in a free country So who cares if people are tortured and thrown in a mass grave elsewhere. I do

[Trollin]

Thank you Drifter AMEN

[roadsend]

Very well spoken Clackamas Drifter. You have understanding well beyond your years.

[Straydog]

Drifter,

Started reading your rant and really got serious once I saw my name.

Gotta be honest though, I didn't finish reading it.

I just got home from selfishly spending 3 days of my own time (took a day off work plus my weekend) learning to be a better School Board volunteer so I can spend more of my free time trying to help 6,000 school get the best education they can.

I do this between volunteering for fish habitat improvement on a state task force and an advisory committee for BLM.


I now am going to be real selfish and not waste any more of my time reading your misinformed, arrogant and assuming misconceptions about me or anyone else.

Get your facts before making false accusations about people you do not know.

[ 11-16-2003, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[Clackamas Drifter]

Thats good of you to do all that volunteer work stray dog. But I must say, I made no misinformed statements what so ever. I said the comment that you made about the people not caring about someone they have never met was selfish, which it is. I never gave any mis-information, and I never listed those things as your personal traits. I gave no false information what so ever, and I never made anything up. As far as me being arrogant, I suppose that is your own opinion to have. But since I never said anything at all in anything I wrote to glorify myself, or make myself sound like I am anything other than an avaverage guy, I dont think arrogant is the proper word. Now if you think I am an &lt;earwig&gt;, thats fine. But I stand by what I said. I didnt say anything that isnt true and didnt need to be said. And to be perfectly frank, I had all of my facts, and they were perfectly accurate, which is why I posted what I did because I am tired of hearing the assanine babble coming out of peoples mouths about the war, when they have no idea what they are talking about. If you dont like it, tough.

[ 11-17-2003, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: crabbait ]

[DanS]

Only an ignorant moron would believe that going into Iraq had nothing to do with september 11th,

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">You'll let the CIA and FBI know they're all ignorant morons for us, now won't you.

They looked for a connection.........and found it only in Bush's mind.