It's our kids and our future........

Straydog · 11-07-2003, 07:21 AM

Are you paying attention?
The line in this editorial that sums it best for me is the line that states this is not the '50's any more. If you are not actively involved in your schools, it is difficult to understand the challenges our kids are bringing to schools and society today.

Will you do what you can do to help??

Notice how many drop outs we are housing in prisons? "Pay now or pay more and for longer later.......

[ 11-07-2003, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

Lured In · 11-07-2003, 07:29 AM

"(education)....one that is likely to keep our children in a classroom but not necessarily give them what they need to do well in the world."

What I find ironic about that comment is that IMHO it has fit many public school systems for longer than this budget issue has been ailing the state. :depressed:

Straydog · 11-07-2003, 07:34 AM

That is partly because budget issues have been hurting our schools for decades. It is just this recent statewide budget crunch that has brought it to the attention of the masses. As the editorial says, it is the cumulative effect of budget woes that is crashing down upon us today.

Also, when we let got of more local control (thank you Mr. Sizemore) and gave more to the state and feds., it became increasingly neccessary to teach "to the test" rather that "teach to the student" in my opinion.

Thumper · 11-07-2003, 07:37 AM

"The latest round of school cuts is real, deep and far-reaching"

Is it, Straydog? The last time we all discussed this issue, you reported that the "cuts" in your school district were in reality reductions in budgets that had originally planned to increase spending by about 14% in the coming biennium. The "cuts" at that time would have limited real spending increases to only 6-8%.

If you find it useful to discuss this subject, I would appreciate having you again provide some real numbers, similar to what you provided last year. I'd like to understand whether or not "cuts" are cuts in real dollar spending or cuts in planned spending. Big difference.

Lured In · 11-07-2003, 07:44 AM

Straydog...I have always appreciated your passion for the public school system and admired your continued effort to stay informed. Unfortunately, I believe you and I may disagree on the solution to much of what is going on.

In the second article, those programs are focused on "at risk" kids in one way or another. Even today the vast majority of high school students graduate, fulfilling the meager requirements expected of them for a diploma.

If we had a 50% drop out rate (and I am certain there are schools nationally that probably do), I could understand a larger focus on keeping kids in school. IMO we need to balance to the distribution of what little funds there are, to focus on education (reading, writing, math, computer skills and critical thinking). It sometimes seems that 'programs' are initiated to fix the social issues surrounding our school age children, rather than the lack of education they are receiving while in class.

Not trying to be argumentative, just expressing my frustrations as a parent of two elementary school kids.

Straydog · 11-07-2003, 07:46 AM

Jack,

1. You are paraphrasing me inaccuartely.
We made very real cuts of teachers and services in our district. They were not as severe as they would have been due to backfilling once the numbers were actually in and we reduced projected budget growth. We are operating with fewer fewer teachers and services than were last year. I think you may be confusing one part of the budget that was argued with GSA, not the entire budget. I may be wrong.

2. This editorial is from the Medford Mailtribune related to cuts their district is expecting to make. We will not know what our next step will be in our district until we know the outcome of the income tax surcharge.

You seem to be illustrating clearly a big problem we have in our state. Some, (Lars Larson is one great example) will take the actions or situation of one small fragment and use that to illustrate the whole state. It is that wrong mindedness that helped get us in the pickle we are in today.......... I am sorry to see a sharp person such as yourself seemingly fall into that trap. :depressed:

[ 11-07-2003, 09:04 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

Straydog · 11-07-2003, 07:53 AM

Lured,

As a parent of a TAG elementary student I share your frustration to a degree.

Howerver, we need to take it a step further and realize that if we ignore the "at risk" students in favor of the others, all will suffer unless we change the basic philosophy of pubic education. That being ALL kids, as required by law, will recieve an equal opportunity to education.

Further, the Presidents "No Child Left Behind" policy dictates even more emphasis placed on the at risk kids because their success very much drives the NCLB process. Failure of at risk kids means the administration deems the entire school a failure and the purse strings get tightened even further.

Also, since our funding is based on ADM (average daily membership) the more kids that drop out, the less money we get to operate our schools. Howver, the light bill, the heat bill, the transportation bill, the cost of teachers, etc, etc. does not diminish equally for the loss of each child.

One more thing......... you say our kids graduate with a meager education. I can't speak to Washington State but Oregon has some of the highest standards in the country for its education goals. That is another reason the NCLB program is inequatible, all states are expected to meet or exceed their stated education goals but Oregon's are much, much higher than say Texas. (wonder if there might be a link to Bush there......... oh, let's not go there for Jack's sake!

)

[ 11-07-2003, 08:56 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

Straydog · 11-07-2003, 08:03 AM

Jack,

Here is a link to yesterdays Medford Mail Tribune article that led up to the editorial of today...... Schools cut to the bone.

Many, many districts will face similar circumstances if the tax surcharge does not hold.

Again, please understand, not all districts and not all schools are created equal.

Thumper · 11-07-2003, 08:15 AM

Straydog --- Note that all the articles you posted talk of "budget cuts". None talk of "spending cuts". That is my concern. If you spent $100 last biennium, budget to spend $114 this biennium, but can only afford to spend $107, the school districts and the media would decry a "$7 budget cut", which is in reality a $7 spending increase. That is misleading.

Can someone give us real numbers?

Straydog · 11-07-2003, 09:13 AM

Jack,

Both of these statements reflect spending cuts.
I believe there are other direct references to spending cuts in the article.

From the Tribune article of yesterday.
"At this point, administrators say the only viable options include firing teachers or slashing school days to compensate for a loss of state funding."

I am hustling to get office work done so I can work my way up the freeway and on to Salem for a Fish Screening Task Force meeting tomorrow.

As stated in the past, school budgets are public documents and accessable to anyone. At some point, if people are not able or willing to get involved and find the facts and react accordingly, they then need to trust those that are doing the work and putting in the time.

Trusting others is what got us here in the first place you say? Then again, get involved!

"Lead, follow or get out of the way", as some people put it.

lost_sailor · 11-07-2003, 09:15 AM

It would be nice if we could hurl $87 billion at our public schools as easily as we can hurl it at foreign countries that we spent billions on to blow up.

I wish all the people that think the schools have plenty of money and are wasting it right and left would do some time on their local school board.

I know, public education is "socialist" and now I must go to Cuba...

kamloops · 11-07-2003, 09:21 AM

Lost Sailor,

I guess the 3000 poor souls that were "Blown Up"
in Ny, what we just blow them off?

Straydog · 11-07-2003, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lost_sailor:
[QB] It would be nice if we could hurl $87 billion at our public schools as easily as we can hurl it at foreign countries that we spent billions on to blow up.

I wish all the people that think the schools have plenty of money and are wasting it right and left would do some time on their local school board.

Do you realize the 87 B was approved on a voice vote (no paper trail) and that many elected officials were not even there to vote??

Further, people don't even need to spend time on the board, just attend the dang meetings and learn for themselves what goes on!! Or spend some time in schools learning what goes on.

We just had an election that would have changed the way our county government operates. It would have changed us from a system of 3 paid full time commissioners to 7 basicaly volunteer commissioners with a full time administrater. Not even 50% of the people participated in this MAIL IN election!! Yet, the over 50 that didn't even bother to vote will likly still whine about the way things go..............

I see the same apathetic arm chair whining in terms of our schools from many people.......

Thumper · 11-07-2003, 09:50 AM

Straydog --- You provided three hotlinks. None of the articles spoke of spending cuts. But two of the articles again speak of "budget cuts". That is my point.

Human nature is human nature, and there is little that can likely be done to change it. I suspect that people lack interest in the process because they don't trust it. And for good reasons, in my opinion. I gave one reason above; i.e., budgetspeak ("budget cuts" vs. "spending cuts") turns many off.

I have a suggestion. Why don't those who seek more funding just be honest with the public and use real numbers? How much was spent last biennium? How much do we have to spend this biennium? Pretty simple.

[ 11-07-2003, 11:00 AM: Message edited by: Thumper ]

CATCH AND EAT · 11-07-2003, 09:55 AM

Lost Sailor you are thinking the same thing I am when it comes to $87billion for war recovery, or $11mil for lite rail or paying a county librarian $140 thousand a year. Amazing how government always finds a way to do something when the tax payer has said no over and over again.

Understand Straydog that the situation down there may be a bit different. I too appreciate your concern and involvement with schools

I think in the situations Jack and I have seen up here in the PDX school district it is a bit different. We have grown tired of the overstuffed management of the superintendants office. Way to much administration and not enough teachers is one example. Jack is right regarding budget shortfall scams that are continually played upon the public. This happens every year just like clock work when there are special elections to be held.

Amazing enough how o'l Katz comes up with the "hey we were frugal and saved $11mil this year so we are going to give it back to business." Seems she could have solved a part of the false budget crisis by moving that money to education. [img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img] She always finds money to spend on the worthless pile of junk lite rail systems that have been shoved down our throats instead of taking care of our Willamette river sewage problems in a timely manner.

The problems with local governments is that they have no real concept to the depth of their spending problems and lack of fiscal responsiblity to the tax payer. I call them glory seekers in this town catering to pet project whinners and not to the public as a whole.

I have three kids ranging from high school to preschool in the David Douglas School Distric. Somehow this particular distric seems to have it a little more together than some of the others in our area. I do donate a small amount of money each year to it but I am not per say "involved" in it. To many other evening projects with Church and my days are tied up during the week for which I work 11 hours a day 5 days a week. Saturdays I fish and Sunday is Church.l Excuses, excuses, I can hear ya :blush: .

We have so many programs that we call part of education that I am not sure we know anymore what education really is. Back to basics.

BTW Straydog, My now highschool freshman daughter was part of tag until I Yanked her out of the program in 6th grade. She hated TAG and I felt it was a waste of my childs time. Interestingly enough she is taking all advanced classes as a freshman and helps what the school distric calls Super Seniors (the ones that did not graduatewith their class due to poor scores) with their math. She is a well adjusted person and I am sooooooo proud of her. BTW her TAG score was in the top 10 percent of the 99th percentile. Don't ask me how she got this smart

I am dumber than a box of rocks. [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img]

Anywho.... Take a look at the top admininstration before ya cut the teachers. I hope they can work your situation out down there. Sounds pretty tough and I can sympathize.

FallRiverGuy · 11-07-2003, 10:00 AM

Better yet, spend some time in a classroom as a volunteer. Some of my wife's biggest parental antagonists became her biggest advocates once they spent some time in the classroom. Many of the more affluent parents would buy supplies and books for the classroom after witnessing first hand the dire monetary situation in schools.

Straydog · 11-07-2003, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thumper:
I have a suggestion. Why don't those who seek more funding just be honest with the public and use real numbers? How much was spent last biennium? How much do we have to spend this biennium? Pretty simple.

We agree, pretty simple. In fact, unrealisticly simple. The only way such a simplified view makes sense is to assume that costs remain stable. If only we had that luxury.

Here are some hard numbers from our district for you:

Budget
1996-97 38,254,363
97-98 38,429,239
98-99 41,421,378
99-00 40,386,819
00-01 40,494,760
01-02 39,445,604
02-03 41,375,621
03-04 38,984,572

You ask what I suggest one does, I repeat "Lead, follow or get out of the way".

Catch and Eat,

Yes, I agree there is a huge difference between the Portland district and others. Sheer numbers and the demographics that go along with that dictates there be a huge difference.

The advanced program your daughter is on sound much like the PEP (personal education plan) we have developed for our daughter. I am not nor have I ever been a fan of labling kids either gifted or otherwise. I am however, very much in support of making sure our sharp kids don't get left behind in our quest of helping the less fortunate.

I agree we need to key in on basics but it is tough to teach basics to my kid when the kid next to her is freaking out because mom got beat up by dad last night or mom and dad went on a runner and the kids got no dinner or breakfast.

The law says we must educate them all. In order to do so, it requires we get them to a place where they CAN be educated and educated without short changing the others.

It is a very, very difficult task and so much more than "just a budget" and "just show me the numbers."

As for being involved, yea, choices have to be made. I don't fish as much as I used to nor do I attend church. I decided I can fish more when my chosen mission of raising children is done. I do however, still get plenty of fishing time in.

I don't watch TV, don't hang out in bars, and involve my daughter in fishing with me as much as possible.

As I say, it is all about personal choice. I am not making judgment about those choices. I am merely saying if one chooses not to be involved in something, then don't make it harder on those that are.

Straydog · 11-07-2003, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thumper:
Straydog --- You provided three hotlinks. None of the articles spoke of spending cuts. But two of the articles again speak of "budget cuts". That is my point.

Speaking for our district, budget cuts ARE spending cuts. Are you suggesting we are sneaking money out or have some slush fund that is getting bigger by cutting budgets but saving money in some hidden account or something?

We try to keep a 500K carry over for disaters and other unforseen expenses but otherwise, every penny of the budget is "spent". IE. a budget cut results in or is a spending cut.

Wages should not be expected to go down. Health insurance costs are not going down. Fuel costs are not going down. All of these things are rising, thus the need to raise budgets (spending) along with them and thus the need to reduce budgets (spending) when the money is not appropratied to keep up with the times.

[ 11-07-2003, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

Thumper · 11-07-2003, 10:44 AM

SD --- I think you are missing my point completely. Sorry. :depressed:

TheRogue · 11-07-2003, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thumper:
SD --- I think you are missing my point completely. Sorry. :depressed:

I think you missed his point as well....

TR

Straydog · 11-07-2003, 10:54 AM

Jack and TR,

Me too.. :whazzup:

[ 11-07-2003, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

BrionLutz · 11-07-2003, 06:03 PM

Straydog,

Folks seem to forget that inflation alone raises the budget with no new spending on kids and teachers or school buildings.

Looking at the example below. The 1995-97 budget in 2003 dollars would be $54,447,887. The current budget represents 28% decrease in school funding. Any increase in the number of kids? Did the maintenance for older buildings go up or down over 10 years?

Amazing how many excuses folks come up with to defund kid's education.

That we can run up a $500B deficit and not fund our kids education is just nuts.

1996-97 38,254,363
97-98 38,429,239
98-99 41,421,378
99-00 40,386,819
00-01 40,494,760
01-02 39,445,604
02-03 41,375,621
03-04 38,984,572

Brion

lost_sailor · 11-07-2003, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kamloops:
Lost Sailor,

I guess the 3000 poor souls that were "Blown Up"
in Ny, what we just blow them off?

I can understand the justification for the Afghanistan invasion. Terrorists->Al-Qaeda->Taliban ... no objection, I had the same instinct to "kick butt" after 9/11.

How much vengeance is enough? We'll never bring back WTC victims by killing more people.

I don't buy the reasons given for our unprovoked invasion of Iraq. (Thumper: "50,000,000,000 people are now free!")

[Way off topic, but you asked the question]

kamloops · 11-07-2003, 11:10 PM

That's funny you mention that, Saddam and the other vermin you mention in your post felt the same way.

lost_sailor · 11-07-2003, 11:17 PM

:whazzup:

Huh? You spend time with Saddam and Co., ? You know their feelings ?

kamloops · 11-07-2003, 11:25 PM

Feelings? how bout the feelings of the many TENS thousands of wives and kids that go to bed at night without their mommies or daddies?
REMEMBER 9-11?
Remember the mass graves of people unearthed in Iraq
Remember the thousands of Kerds gassed in Northern Iraq

Thats all I am saying

Straydog · 11-07-2003, 11:35 PM

Kamlooops,

Good job of hi-jack-ing a thread.........

All I am asking is that we remember our own kids, their future which is also our future and their very real and urgent need for adequate, stable funding for education.

You are free to start your own thread and I would ask that you do so if you feel the need to carry on with your mission of remembering those of other countries. Very worthy, just not on topic and a distraction.

Sailor's point about dollars seemingly being prioritized for foreign nations before our own kids is valid and relates to the topic. Your follow up does not.

[ 11-07-2003, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

lost_sailor · 11-07-2003, 11:40 PM

You mean the families of our troops stuck on the other side of the world?

YES, I don't expect to ever forget Sept. 11, 2001.

Why does this country have to be the savior of every country ruled by evil tyrants? There are oppressive governments all over this planet - where do we stop? While OUR children's schools are falling apart, and their teachers have to spend their salaries on pencils and paper for their students ...

Quote:

Originally posted by kamloops:
Feelings? how bout the feelings of the many TENS thousands of wives and kids that go to bed at night without their mommies or daddies?
REMEMBER 9-11?
Remember the mass graves of people unearthed in Iraq
Remember the thousands of Kerds gassed in Northern Iraq

Thats all I am saying

kamloops · 11-07-2003, 11:44 PM

straymutt,

Thanks , I think my point is very valid.

Straydog · 11-07-2003, 11:58 PM

Quote:

straymutt

Now you stoop to making up childish names.....

Yea, really adds to you're validity. Keep digging.

[ 11-07-2003, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

kayakfisher · 11-09-2003, 12:24 PM

Stray dog...thanks for starting this thread.

Money spent on education is totally essential to the future of this nation, period. It is NOT the total answer as you all know, but it is undebatably essential, as it local, state, and federal emphasis on funding education as a first priority.

Parental involvement on a daily basis is however invaluable and shows the kids and the teachers how important education is to us all. The biggest single problem is that the average parent does not show strong support for the educational process by being in the schools, by turning off the tv and making sure the kids do their assignments carefully, by helping the kids with homework instead of watching tv themselves, by reading to the kids at a young age, by reading on their own in front of thier kids, by donating a few of their own private funds to the teachers to buy additional supplies that may enhance the class room's environment, by demanding that teachers and administrators do their job well (most do anyway..but not all), by demanding that elected officials support the schools on a permanent funding basis instead of on a crisis response basis, by understanding that teachers are not perfect, by emphasizing to their kids how grades are not the end goal...but learning how to learn is, and learning how to enjoy learning. The list goes on....ad infinitum.

Our elected officials don't support education as much as they should, but that is usually because they don't feel the public in general pushing them to do the right thing. We cannot rely of elected officials to always do the right thing, esp in the face of oppossition in thier own party...they need strong support sometimes to do the right thing...most of them are not willing to become sacrificial lambs. (Not the nature of a human, let alone a politician.)

In some ways it is very complex, but in someways it is very simple.

Catch and eat..congratulations of you daughter's high achievement...and on not forcing her to stay in a tag program that did not suite her needs. Keeping kids interested in learning is the most important single goal of the educational process, and you must be doing that well. I have noticed that some parents feel that being in the tag program is so very important...maybe an ego trip for some parents. You must be doing something very right...since she is apparently very self motivated and is willing to take chances.

I have thought at times that it would be very cool for some of you skilled fisherman to take a kid and his(her) parent out fishing on the boat sometime...and getting the kids from a referral of a teacher who gives the referral out as a reward for a great effort in school. (Not for a good grade, but perhaps for a great effort in doing their best...or showing a huge improvement. I would love to do that..but alas, I am only a beginning fisherperson, still learning the ropes, and not all that successful at putting fish in the boat yet. (By the way, this could be used in a small way to tax deduct some of your fishing costs if you are careful about it...)

This would be a great win win thing...rewards kids, encourages teachers, enhances the image of the fishermen, enhances a kids knowledge and respect of the natural world and natural resources.

:smile: In this spirit...if anyone wants to go out fishing and bring a kid with me and my kids I would welcome that...for now though i would have to ask that you also bring some expertise so the kids can catch something. When I fish with a kids I essentially don't fish myself except to help the kids. (Almost always actually...)

Thank you all for your interesting and well expressed thoughts on this thread.

M.