Social Manifesto

[Birdnest]

I have been getting a little burned out lately with all of the right/left bashing. We have become very good at identifying problems and placing blame. So in ATTEMPT I will try and offer solutions vs point fingers.

As humans, we don't want to see our fellow man suffer. As tax payers, we don't want to see our money wasted. I propose a complete revolution of our social welfare system.

The premise would be this. You get from it, you give to it. It would be a comphrensive program with a mission statement of..."No Excuses". If you are on welfare/unemployment you are mandated to participate if you want to continue to recieve benefits. I know, I know it sounds over the top, but hear me out.

I envision a program, that after an initial start up phase, would become wildly self sufficent. Education would be the corner stone of the program. Eleminating the obstacles (excuses), paramount. While creating a giant social monster goes against my Republican nature, saving money, while acutally helping somebody, is strongly appealing.

There needs to be motivation for this to work. My motivation would be for a person to continue to recieve their benefits they have to participate. Participate in what you ask? An evolution, a transformation, a program that would arm you with skills so that you can become a contributing and independent person.

The removal of obstacles is also key. People in this strata are facing basic need challenges. Since education and training is what we are all about, let's help ourselves first.

The no excuses approach...

My car is broke down...we have an auto mechanic class that can look at it.

I still need a ride...we have a truck driving class, the bus will be by your corner at 0730.

I can't afford day care to come...we have a early preschool class that can help you out.

I am an addict...we have counselors to get you the help you need.

I can't read...we have classes for adult reading.

I didn't finish high school...we have a GED program.

I like to work with my hands...we have skilled pros from all of the trades teaching.

I like computers...we have skilled pros teaching all kinds of software/hardware skills.

I like helping people...we have many allied health care pros teaching a variety of classes.

Where does the money come from to pay all of the "skilled teachers". Two places. The government, since it will be saving money in the long run will buck up. More importantly, people that have been helped by the program, will be required to return the favor in a limited fashion. The longer the program runs, the more self sufficent and fiscally responsible it becomes.

Will everybody on welfare participate, no. Are we as society obligated to carry able bodied people because they are just too lazy to help themselves, no.

We want to help you, but you have to learn to help yourself too.



Joe

[BrionLutz]

Birdnest,

You get from it, you give to it.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I think that's been said before, to each according to his needs, from each according to his abilities.

I don't think you are gonna like the guy who said it though &lt;grin&gt;.

Brion

[Thumper]

I believe that in American society there are givers (most of us) and takers. For your plan to work at some point the roles have to be reversed. Is there any evidence that the takers can ever become givers? If not it's gonna get old real quck.

[Birdnest]

Brion,

Hence...manifesto.

I am not a died in the wool Karl Marx fan. I think for the most part socialism/communism look good on paper, but are not realistic to human nature.

My system differs in that you can get as far ahead as you work for. It is also a stepping stone vs a false uptopian form of government. I am not polysci guy, I look for tumors. I do however want people to accountable.

Joe

[BrionLutz]

Birdnest,

I am not a died in the wool Karl Marx fan.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I was going more for a cotton shroud myself.

Brion

[Pilar]

Birdnest ... It's a good plan. There are several problems. Inertia is the main one. We, as a society have been 'solving' this problem for a long time without actually solving it. The second problem is that you are assuming a certain amount of honesty and good will from the people involved. They will take the milk of kindness and compassion until the cow is dead.

I am not criticizing you here. But I am saying that you are going to make many people with masters of sociology degrees into the chronically unemployed if you actually 'fix' some of these unfortunates by helping them improve themselves.

Now what do you propose we do with the many individuals that have a vested interest in 'Victimology'? That is they depend on the 'strata' of individuals you are describing as needing help to make their living.

It does sound like socialism, Brion. But it also sounds like an honest attempt to solve an ongoing problem. Too many people have too much invested in either being a victim or enabling people to be victims.

It's about personal responsibility.

[Birdnest]

Pilar-I hear you brother. My point is that if you want some milk from the cow of compassion, you are going to have to walk over and milk it yourself. If you don't know how, we'll teach you. As for the displaced social workers...we have a class for displaced social workers. :grin:

Thumper-my plan would require you to give something to recieve something. I am not so idealistic that I feel everybody involved would get a warm fuzzy feeling and be glad to help. If you want to recieve benefits you have to participate.

If you don't have a skill, we'll teach you one. If you can't find work in your skill set, we'll teach you a new one. If you choose to sit around and watch Springer all day, don't bother checking your mailbox for your welfare check.

Brion-I am not sure I caught the reference to a cotton shroud. The Holy Shroud? Please explain.

Joe

[ 10-29-2003, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: Birdnest ]

[CATCH AND EAT]

Not that I understand Brion at all but dyed in the wool (heavy fabric) vs dyed in the cotton (light, airy, and fluffy) meaning he like some aspects of Marx but does not exactly drink from the well. But only he would really understand his point.

[lost_sailor]

It sounds like a great idea. I'm afraid the reality of administrative costs might crush it.

Not quite getting the "wildly self-sufficient" scheme. Yet.

I'll definitely agree on the need for radical change.

[Birdnest]

Maybe "wildly" was a bit much, but self sufficent would be the pie in the sky. Shooting for that will win the hearts of the tax payers as well. I don't know enough about business models to speak on the administrative cost, wait don't we have an office skills class going? :grin:

I don't claim this to be the answer or without flaws, just thought I would throw it out there, let people expand or contract on the idea.

Joe

[Jimmy Carl Black]

Education would be the corner stone of the program.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Let's do it. We gotta start with that corner stone.

[Jimmy Carl Black]

Pilar-

They will take the milk of kindness and compassion until the cow is dead.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">First of all, I totally agree. However, as do the rich as we speak under the current system. We need balance.

Now what do you propose we do with the many individuals that have a vested interest in 'Victimology'? That is they depend on the 'strata' of individuals you are describing as needing help to make their living.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">If I'm understanding you right, you mean that these people are leeches. Some of them may be, but I believe there are more who are genuinely screwed. (Sorry if that's a bad word on this board but I feel it the only word to get my point across)

But wait a second, I've already gotten political haven't I?

Awesome post birdnest, we should figure out a way to make it work, at least at a local or county level and show the world what we can do.

[Smj]

Aaaa...I can't begin to keep up with you guys in the discussions that go on in LIG BUT, I read alot here. Growing up in Utah in the late fifties and sixties I remember relitives and friends and their families going to work in/on/at the "Welfare farms", digging, planting, storing, peserving and distributing food. I remember some of my friends/family saying things like "oh sorry we can't do that we're going to can peaches at the farm that day". As I remember the Mormon welfare system was very similar to what Birdnest is suggesting and worked very well.

I was not a Mormon at that time and I'm not now, but I was active in the church for a short time in between.

Smj

[Silver Hilton]

Bird, I commend your positive thinking on the subject. Much better to light a candle than curse the darkness.

I think there a couple of details that would impact the plan. First, there are some who are simply takers, as others have noticed. I think this is generational, and it crosses class boundaries. There are the poor with an entitlement attitude, and there are the rich with an entitlement attitude ("of course you should give my company a tax break - I provide jobs"). What you describe is a fairly communal system, and that has not been shown to work well in societies that are large enough so that people don't know each other.

Second, and this is the more severe problem, there are many, unfortunately, who can't give. Many of the receivers in society are children, elderly, and sick. It is not likely to be practical to get from them in proportion to what they received. If a hard rule is imposed to make sure that they give something, we would probably see silly production of useless things, and non-market based production, much as we saw in the former soviet union.

That said, what you have described is similar to my own life philosophy. I have recieved, so I shall give.

[Pilar]

Jimmy Carl Black, Leeches is a strong word. Maybe it is better to think of it this way. There are a number of organizations and individuals dedicated to helping people see themselves as 'victims', thereby excusing them from personal responsibility for their actions. IE: The killer was abused as a child =&gt; this is why he is a killer or abuser and so on.

In some political camps the solution to the social problems is to throw more money into welfare and victimology. The solution as proposed by Birdnest would undermine the political power of individuals who have taken up the welfare agenda.

Smj . I had heard of the way Mormons deal with these issues but thanks for sharing the details.

Silver Hilton . entitlement is a dirty word.You are right that attitude is prevalent on both extremes. It may not be necessary to get back equivalent to what is given. Just getting any number of individuals to become assets to society instead of loads on it would make a difference.

Most of us give up a huge portion of our income to the government. Some part of that is spent on 'entitlement programs'. What could you do if that lost money was yours again?

[Birdnest]

I was thinking of the numbers issue this morning. It would seem there would be an optimum range. With to many, you can't mandate participation in a program that you can't provide an opening. To few, not enough folks to make the self sufficent component work.

I suppose with large cities you would have to work out a formula for length of time on welfare before you would be required to participate. I would hate to see someone turned away just because they haven't been in the system long enough. If the model worked, then it could be expanded.

I wonder if you could subcontract with local community colleges/tech schools/universities being they have accredited programs in place. I have always felt that higher education should be heavily subsidized(performance based), but that is another thread.

Concerning the folks that would not be able to give back. A sliding scale approach would have to be applied...back to the Marx approach of according to their abilities.

No system is going to be immune from those that choose to exploit the model. However any system that teaches a person to fish vs just giving them a fish will always appeal to me.

Joe

[AuntyM]

Birdnest,

What you have described has already been tried in my community.

Olympic Junior College in Shelton had a program called New Chance that ran for several years. It was an intensive one semester program of full time (9 total) classes in Human Relations in the Workplace, Math, English, Career Planning/Life Exploration, 3 computer classes, Academic Success and Psychology/Self Esteem. The program administrator and the instructors worked closely together to help each student as best they could. No one was allowed to fail. It was a tough love type environment. The groups (Usually 20-25 students per semester) became very close knit and supportive of each other, while at the same time, we kept pressure on each other to excel. Many projects were done in groups, with each person taking a leadership role at least once. NO SLACKERS ALLOWED!

Funding for the classes came from Labor and Industries retraining, those on unemployment benefits and welfare to work programs. Occasionally, there were full tuition paying students also. (yours truly)

Students were able to assess their own skills and what actions were needed to improve their prospects. They learned how to create impressive resumes, how to interview and basically learn to sell themselves. Most students benefitted greatly with improved confidence, knowledge, and communication skills.

There were tutors available for anyone not able to keep up, and the assessments by instructors found learning disabilities some folks didn't know they had. Once students knew where their weaknesses were, they were able to concentrate on improvement in that area.

The program was a huge success as far as getting people back to work. The majority of participants got better jobs than they held previously. Some even found their educational "niche" and completed junior college level studies and went on to universities. They were taught how and where to search for loans, grants and scholarships. Most students in high school and normal college classes don't the assistance to access the resources available that these New Chance students had.

Quite a few New Chance graduates have become middle/upper management, business owners and a couple have received their Masters in education or business. This program changed many lives and I was proud to be a part of it.

So what happened to the program? Budget cuts hit the program harder than normal classes, since very few students were capable of paying tuition. :depressed:

[Jimmy Carl Black]

Pilar- I got you now.

I definitely see both sides of the welfare issue. The crying and whining on both sides always leads us to the same place though, an inefficient government bureaucracy with little or no accountability.

Tough issues man!