San Diego Fires...

[Lured In]

Here are some shots of the fires in Southern CA and San Diego. I used to live to live about 5 miles from where one of the fires is burning houses.


This is a satelite photo of So. CA. Just for perspective the 'green' spot in the lower right is the Salton Sea area about 100 miles east of San Diego. The fires burning in the upper left are around LA.


This is the Tierrasanta area just east of Miramar (where Top Gun was filmed). These are $500,000+ homes.



This is a picture of Interstate 5 also near Miramar.

I spoke to a good friend this morning and he said it is absolutely unreal. The sky varies from nearly black to a cloudy rose color, even in the middle of the day. Ash is constantly falling and covering everything. The really scary part is that with the exception of one fire just north of San Diego, they do not even have containment percentages on any of the other 3 fires. :depressed:

Pray for these folks and the firefighters.

[CATCH AND EAT]

Truly tragic event. I hope who ever is responsible for this pays dearly. At least 13 counts of homicide should be filed against him and billions of dollars damage caused by this low life. No respect for this guy.

[Tilla]

Biologists categorize the surrounding foliage under "firetype" . Left alone it typically burns every 7-9 years on the average. It does what it is doing now when suppressed for additional years. Pretty horrible scene.

[jocose]

ive always wondered if one were to install a wash down system externally on a house, like a flood type sprinkler system along the peak that would continually cascade water over a house in a emergancy.. would that save a house? or is the heat so intense that nothing will stop it from burning under these conditions? joco

[AllThumz]

My parents live just south of San Diego, and they called yesterday noting that in the middle of the day there was no sun. They also said that it had been 6 months since any rain. Mix that with Santa Ana winds and the whole area goes up like a tinder box.

It's really a sad situation.

John

[Born to Fish]

Jocose - the problem with your idea is: 1/the availability of water in large quantities, and 2/reliable power source for whatever water delivery system you have.

I've worked as a logistics chief on wildland fire management teams for the past 7 years and here are some approaches that we've used in protecting remote facilities [lookouts, ranger stations, historic structures, etc.], and structures in developed sites, including private residencial inholdings.

1. One common approach is to completely wrap the structure in sheets of fire-shelter like material much like that used to produce the "shake-and-bake" fire shelters that fire fighters use as a last resort when caught in a burn over. These materials are not infalliable in that they only withstand certain maximum temperatures [can't remember if it was up to 1,500 degrees] before they physically fail. In addition, they can be torn apart and pulled loose from what ever type anchoring system you may use. This stuff is expensive and not easy for the general public to get ahold of.

2. Sometimes we'll set up extensive sprinkler systems on, and around the structure where adequate supply of surface water exists. Use gas operated Mark 3 pumps [$3,000 or so apiece] to charge and run the system - someone has to be there initially if for no other reason to start it. Obviously, if no one stays, the pumps only run as long as the fuel supply lasts.

3. There are commercial contractors that will wrap buildings with material similar to what I described in the "shake-and-bake", but enhance the protection by adding an internal water flow system between the wrap and structural fabric. Again, same potential problems as in #1 and #2. And incredibly expensive. Not enough of these contractors [I only can think of one we've worked with] and they couldn't handle situations like we're hearing about now - just not enough resources available.

4. Foam delivery by engines and/or portable pumps can be really effective if its safe enough environment conditions for the people who need to do the applications and maintain them.

I've seen them all used successfully, and I've seen failures. Also, I've seen where the water delivery systems have done very serious damage to the structures.

What it comes down to however, is what another writer already pointed out - if you build in fire-prone areas, you're gonna get burned eventually. One woman interviewed on TV tonight said between sobs that they'd lived in their house 40 years and never saw anything like that...and unfortunately they lost their home. Each area with burnable fuels has a "return cycle", that can be determined in various ways, and these cycles indicate what could be the "normal" expectation for that area to burn over again. Well, many of these chaparell areas, under normal/wild conditions would burn every few years, maybe more often in some cases. To suppress fires in those areas temporarily protects the structures, but at the same time builds up decadent vegetation, and heavy fuel loadings that spell disaster.

I really feel for these folks - its tragic, but under the circumstances this is eventually unavoidable in those areas, and careless people and/or arsonists don't help one bit.

For the past several years the feds and state organizations have put a lot of money into a program called "FireWise" [lots of associated websites out there] which will help the property owners and communities do "risk analyses" and it provides fundamental advice on what you can do to make your property more resistent to loss and provide for "defensible space" on and adjacent to your property where you and firefighters can hopefully be successful in protecting your property.

Sorry about the length of this - I got carried away with the topic.

Dean

[ 10-27-2003, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: Born to Fish ]

[Thumper]

Sad, very sad. I lived in Claremont east of LA in the late 1960s and saw similar fires. When will man learn that you just can't tweak Mother Nature by building in a fire-prone area that spends nine months of the year bone-dry. Throw in those desert "Santa Anna" winds and the result is disaster.

[greenbuttskunk]

I agree, and I'll be anything most do not have fire protection insurance. I bet it's very expensive and difficult to get in those high-fire danger areas. The second picture tells it all.
My heart and thoughts go out to all those effected by htis fire, it's totally devistating!
GBS

[jocose]

thanks dean i found it all very informative.. ive a cousin who spent last night fighting to keep his house from burning in santee, just east of san diego, he was sucessful but it was pretty scary for a while..gary

[Born to Fish]

Gary, it certainly is a tragedy and can really hit home when family and/or friends are involved. I'm happy to hear that your cousin successfully saved his house and more importantly, survived the ordeal. As I understand, most of the fatalities were as a result of people refusing to leave their homes when the evacuations were first suggested or ordered, and then these poor unfortunates were unable to escape the fire storms.

While this conflagration will last a while, at least it sounds as though they may see some weather changes that could be helpful to control efforts. I hope that those forecasts do occur and no more homes or lives are lost.

Dean

[BrionLutz]

BorntoFish,

Can they use different construction techniques in these fire prone areas?

Adobe construction with tile roofs? Metal roofs with fire proof siding the fire shield stuff underneath, fireproof Tyvek equivalent.

You'd think there'd be a construction technique that would work, not only construction but the layout of the property and a building code to enforce it in these areas were fire is the norm.

Brion

[Born to Fish]

Brian, good questions, and yes, there are lots of things home owners/renters/etc. can do in fire prone environments. Take a look at www.firewise.org. This site provides a lot of good advice in regard to construction, landscaping, design and maintenance. Plus much more info.

There are FireWise programs and services offered throughout the country in terms of workshops, etc. Plus as you'll see from the website, lots of free literature available.

Dean

[BrionLutz]

BorntoFish,

Interesting website. Thanks.

If I read the construction guide correctly, in a desert environment with dry brush urban/wild interface I'd have a fire proof adobe, stone or concrete home.

Construction seems competitive. I wonder why the insurance companies don't insist on smart construction or the counties and states. It takes millions to fight the fires. Seems like with good construction and property layout, the brush burns folks wouldnt' worry about anymore than we do when it rains a lot.

You'd think we'd see more on TV about changing the construction and layout of the towns.

Brion

[Born to Fish]

Brian, more good points. All I can say is, go figure?

I and others have felt for years that it'd take more pressure from the insurance industry, zoning boards and municipalities to help deal with the issues. Slowly, ever so slowly, there has been a little improvement, but it all still comes down to the "wildland/urban interface." People moving into these areas wanting the solitude, scenery, or to be one with nature. Some are willing to put themselves and their homes at risk, while others are simply uninformed. Then too, you've got the urban sprawl, rapidly growing populations pushing into these areas. And there are always those in denial - "that could never happen to me." I truly feel badly for all of them.

As I understand there's a good chance that one of these large fires will burn through the "foot print" of the Laguna Fire [I believe that was the name of it] which happened some time ago, taking out homes in that incident. From what I understand, there are now more homes in that foot print then there were during the original fire incident.

This FireWise initiative is still fairly new but it is starting to get some media coverage, and I expect that we'll be seeing more. I remember last year, during a fire assignment on the Okeefenokee Swamp on the Georgia/Florida state line, I passed through a small rural community that proudly displayed a billboard as you entered town stating that they were a "FireWise Community." Was nice to see that these folks were informed and were proponents of the concept. It takes an agressive approach, time and financial commitment by local government [city, county, state or fed] to get the message out to the people.

[BrionLutz]

Borntofish,

After reading throught the FireWise stuff on the urban/wild thing it seems totally nutty. They are building 2x4 tarpaper fire bombs in the middle of conflagration zone...hello!!??

It's like one of those Road Runner cartoons with the big pile of gunpowder and a long trail of gunpowder leading up to it.

They all have to have fire insurance so what the heck is going on with the insurance companies. They must be paying 100's of million$, you'd think they'd insist on what FireWise says are pretty cheap and basic solutions or no insurance.

Brion

[TheRogue]

And in a few months, the rains will come, and the mudslides will start...and then when it all dries out, a big earthquake will rear it's head.

And all the while, insurance rates across the country will rise to cover it!!

As a good human, I feel sorry for other human beings in misery, but, on the other hand, I really don't.

TR

[Straydog]

We have people active in Oregon today trying to dissassemble land use and planning laws developed to maintain some sort of order and sense to where and how people build, as well as preserve farm and forest land for future generations.

My guess is that many of the people who just lost their homes would be included with those that would say "government has no right to tell me what kind of house I can build or where I can build it." My guess is that developers would organize to fight tooth and nail, building code restrictions that may prevent this type of tragedy.

Yet, now we all ask, "why is this type of construction allowed?"

Remember this when the land use/property rights zealots renew their attempts to dissasemble our land use laws in Oregon, please.

[ 10-29-2003, 07:02 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

We have people active in Oregon today trying to dissassemble land use and planning laws developed to maintian some sort of order and sense to where and how people build, as well as preserve farm and forest land for future generations.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">How true. In Klamath County you can't build a house on less than 90 acres (number might be off a bit) if it's zoned agricultural land. That is unless you are one of "The Important People" $$$$$$. They can plow up fantastic farm land and plant little boxes!

[Straydog]

Keta,

Yup........ it is enough to make one cranky.

If we think the Klamath Basin has water problems now, wait until the developers succeed in putting thousands of ticky tacky houses up in what once was ag land.

It has already happened over here, in the Redwood District and will get worse. Same with Meford. Most of the orchards are now subdivisions.

There are plans to build a gas fired power plant just south of Bonanza

Now as a former powerhouse mechanic I should be happy for another place to apply for a job. I am not though! Millions of gallons of water evaporated and tons of pollution released.

[Birdnest]

There is a retired FF that developed a built in home foam system. If I rememeber right, the system holds all of the necessary water in a tank to address a shortage. The homeowner then activates the system and sprays down the house with a very thick foam. (I spent a couple of years as a FF and this was MUCH thicker than the foam we would pump out of our rigs.) It seems like the stuff kind of dried and left a "shell" all be it a very effective shell. The clean up seemed pretty extensive, but the fire test that I saw were more impressive.

I pray for the crews and everybody else involved.

Joe

[BrionLutz]

Straydog,

Yet, now we all ask, "why is this type of construction allowed?" Remember this when the land use/property rights zealots renew their attempts to dissasemble our land use laws in Oregon, please

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">If you read the Firewise.org website that BornToFish referenced, these folks had to be darn near fire bugs to build/purchase homes like that in that location.

CA estimates the cost of fighting the fire at $1B, not sure if that means just fighting it or property losses vs. the "cost of regulation".

Brion

[Born to Fish]

Originally posted by BrionLutz: CA estimates the cost of fighting the fire at $1B, not sure if that means just fighting it or property losses vs. the "cost of regulation".
Brion [/QB]

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">The estimated costs are now at around $2 billion- that is based on the cost of fire fighting to date, replacement of lost homes and other structures, repair/replacement of infrastruction such as electrical power, etc. Don't know if they included rehab in that, and if not that'll be a big ticket item and take a long time. Can remember the Foothills fire rehab here in the Boise foothills several years ago was late in the season and went on for months - many homeless people from the local shelters were hired to augment the "regular" workforce sources. Expect to see much larger figure by the time this is all over, which won't be for quite a while.

Forecasts indicate possibility of some showers on Friday or Saturday but that isn't going to do much good considering what can occur between now and then [fire growth, etc.], and the shire size and intensity.

Today the air tanker pilots reportedly grounded themselves because of the amount and kind of debrise in the smoke columns they have to fly through. Apparently 6 of these tankers experienced broken windshields as a result, and reportedly one tanker pilot even had to dodge a full sheet of plywood while on a mission.

Saddened to hear that we lost [fatality] one firefighter today and there have been other medivacs. Also an unconfirmed report of civilian fatalities in the Lake Arrowhead area.

No more agency or private contract helicopters available so apparently the military will be called upon to provide this assistance - will take 3-4 days before they're rounded up, equipped and trained to use the water delivery devices [Bambi Buckets] on fires.

[fishisabonus]

Please don't turn this thread into another debate!

This is a horrible situation. It is worse than a hurricane, tornado, or flood, that blows thru in a day or so and then the mop up begins. This fire started, I believe, on October 21. We are on day 9 and counting! There are men and women down there risking their lives to try to put this fire out. To date, over 1600 homes have been destroyed!

I think the best thing anyone concerned can do is pray for rain for Southern California, that no more lives be lost and no more families lose their homes. Use your energy doing that instead of debating and complaining!

[TheRogue]

Originally posted by fishisabonus:
Please don't turn this thread into another debate!

This is a horrible situation. It is worse than a hurricane, tornado, or flood, that blows thru in a day or so and then the mop up begins. This fire started, I believe, on October 21. We are on day 9 and counting! There are men and women down there risking their lives to try to put this fire out. To date, over 1600 homes have been destroyed!

I think the best thing anyone concerned can do is pray for rain for Southern California, that no more lives be lost and no more families lose their homes. Use your energy doing that instead of debating and complaining!

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I agree, and it's a horrible thing!!

However, at what point does the debate take place? This fire thing is cyclic, as long as they continue to build wooden houses in those types of areas, this will continue, and we will ALL continue to pay for it.

TR

[fishisabonus]

The debate is just under the surface. I am simply asking that it NOT turn into an ugly debate. And that request is now open for a debate.

I just heard that a member of a fire crew was lost. I know of men down there fighting this fire.

Once again, I will make my request very plain and simple. PRAY FOR RAIN!

[BrionLutz]

BornToFish,

They had an interesting helicopter shot of the area where the fire started.

What was amazing is that in some areas the trees were green and not burned and the house had burned down completely.

Seems like someone should go to jail for building a highly combustible house in a fire prone urban/wild interface and having other folks risk their lives to save their property.

They had one of the forestry fire people on and he noted that it was much more dangerous trying to control a fire and to try and save property. Normally in a wild fire, they do what the can to control it but don't have to jump through hoops to save private property, hoops which are risky and which make fire fighting less effective.

The only good thing to come out of this would be regulations concerning fire proof homes and fire proof land use planning for homes and businesses.

Brion

[happybrew]

I called my sister today to make sure she's okay. She lives in Borrego Springs. It's between two fires. Luckily, it's desert, rocks and cactii, and the stuff that could burn burned two years ago and it hasn't grown back. They're safe, about 20 miles from the fire with nothing to burn around them. Lots of smoke in the air, though. She's a high school history teacher, and the school is now a shelter for people from a nearby community that had to evacuate. They are also housing a family in their home. They need prayer, and they will eventually need cash. I find it odd that the media was filled with stories of need from 911, but this, which also affects thousands of people, isn't receiving the same amount of coverage. Maybe it will take a few days for the appeals for aid to come out, but I hope they do. There are thousands who will be left with no homes, no belongings when this is done. We need to give, and give generously.

happybrew

[Born to Fish]

Originally posted by fishisabonus:
The debate is just under the surface. I am simply asking that it NOT turn into an ugly debate. And that request is now open for a debate.

I just heard that a member of a fire crew was lost. I know of men down there fighting this fire.

Once again, I will make my request very plain and simple. PRAY FOR RAIN!

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Fishisabonus - not sure where the "debate" comes in - this was not intended in any of my postings which I thought were information-sharing responses. :whazzup:

At any rate, as a member of the fire fighting community [since 1963] I feel terribly upset over homes/businesses and the civilians lost, the firefighter fatality today, and the other crew members who fell victim to the burnover that are currently in the hospital. I have been praying every night since this tragedy began and will continue until it is all over.

If something I said is cause for your concern, I offer my apologies. If reasonable question continue to come up, that I can offer a professional response to, I feel I should reply. On the other hand, I am not interested in getting into any debates or arguments. I agree that it would be inappropriate under the circumstances.

Dean

[mike5097]

Well.........
I have been stuck down here in the Anaheim/Fullerton area on business.

I flew down here on Sunday night, one of the last flights to John Wayne International Airport thet evening.

We flew inland most of the way, went right over the fires, turned right, made a left at Disneyland, and landed.

When we flew over the fires I got a birdseye view of them. You could see the flames, the smoke coming from the fires was lit up because of them. What struck me most was what seemed to be the billions of flashing lights from emergency vehicles. It was a sight I'll remember for a long time.

Down in north O.C., the air is so full of smoke it looks like fog. I would guess the visibility is way less than a mile. It smells horrible. There is so much ash in the air you can see it all over parked cars and the roads appear gray.
In parking lots you can see it swirling around on the ground when cars go by. At night, It looks like snow against the streetlights.

I was offered a respirator Monday morning but declined. I thought what's a little smoke?
But this smoke and ash is not just organic matter, it's the crap from the burning houses too.
Tuesday morning I woke up with a sore throat and red eyes. I am now wearing that repirator every time I go outside.

One interesting thing, I was down by DisneyLand when the sun set last night, and because of all the smoke, it looked like a big reddish orange ball in a gray sky. Pretty wild.

I fly out tonight, and boy will I be glad to be home.

Mike!

[fishisabonus]

Born to Fish,

Thank you.

[BrionLutz]

Born to Fish,

Interesting article in today NY Times on some homes burned in previous fires and rebuilt to withstand the next fires.

Fighting Fire With Steel, Pools and Plaster

The fire-fighters were using one of the homes as a base of operations because it was the safest place around.

Some interesting stuff, rigging the swimming pools to create pools on the roof and a drip system down the walls. Metal roofs. No eves to trap sparks and airborne fire debris. Shutters to protect windows. Locating the homes is relation to the Santa Ana winds...kind of a back to the wind approach. Building materials like steel, copper, glass and aluminum vs. more combustible material.

Let's see 5,000 homes destroyed, $3B dollars..that's $600M per home...I think we could build fire proof homes and so some smart landscaping for that amount?

Brion

[Tilla]

Good information Born to Fish. These fires were expected and no suprise to many. I spent a week studying fires and plant life in those hills 30 years ago in a Fire Ecology college graduate class. We stayed at the fire stations in the hills.
It cost money to better manage the chapparal and create effective fire breaks. So you know the routine about that.
Terrible thing going on down there.

[TheRogue]

Originally posted by BrionLutz:
Born to Fish,

Interesting article in today NY Times on some homes burned in previous fires and rebuilt to withstand the next fires.

Fighting Fire With Steel, Pools and Plaster

The fire-fighters were using one of the homes as a base of operations because it was the safest place around.

Some interesting stuff, rigging the swimming pools to create pools on the roof and a drip system down the walls. Metal roofs. No eves to trap sparks and airborne fire debris. Shutters to protect windows. Locating the homes is relation to the Santa Ana winds...kind of a back to the wind approach. Building materials like steel, copper, glass and aluminum vs. more combustible material.

Let's see 5,000 homes destroyed, $3B dollars..that's $600M per home...I think we could build fire proof homes and so some smart landscaping for that amount?

Brion

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Darnit, I just hate it when I agree with Brion!!

TR

[Born to Fish]

Brian, good information.

I remember a few years back in a similar CA fire situation where the media show cased a subdivision home that survived where all others in the immediate area were burned to the ground. The owner was either an archetect and/or builder and planned the design/construction of his home around his knowledge of the fire history/fuels, wind patterns and risk. While they [he and his family] were happy that they hadn't lost their home, they were of course saddened [rightfully so] by the loses suffered by neighbors, and the bleak gray/black landscape left behind.

Also, in my travel on fire assignments I have heard of a few isolated instances where home or cabin owners were upset that their property had been saved while everything else around them had been whipped out - apparently it would have been easier for them to deal with the lose and moved on rather than staying on in an area that no longer met their expectations, etc.

This is not a debate but rather a flip side of what many of these victims will be dealing with in the aftermath. Very difficult times for all, and they need our support and prayers.

Looks like some of the fires are winding down [reaching containment] and weather in some areas will improve somewhat but at least two of the large fires will continue to involved many more hundreds-thousands of acres. Also, as I mentioned before, the rehabilitation of the environment and rebuilding of infrastructure and communities will take a long time.

I haven't seen much of the news lately but understand from the fire reports coming in that four Indian Reservations [or communities] were severely impacted - communities lost in terms of homes, schools and community infrastructure. Don't know if that has been reported by the media.

[BonkBonkBonk]

wow thats nuts!
i think some of the firefighters from my job corp might be there