Very worthy read about terrorism

2LEYS · 10-06-2003, 07:35 AM

My uncle wrote this. He was a green beret in Vietnam. It puts things in perspective.

Terrorism has been happening for years, and bad things do happen to good people everyday. There is a child dieing from AIDS in Africa, the little girl sold into slavery and prostitution by her family in Thailand, or the person who steps on a land mine in Afghanistan, left from a forgotten war. Bad things happen and most of us cannot even start to comprehend why. All I know for sure is we all have a responsibility to be better people because "freedom is not free." All of us need to do all we can to rid ourselves and those we come in contact with of the hatred, prejudice and injustice that has caused so much pain and problems in the world. We need to step up to the plate each and every time our turn comes to bat and do our best. Though we may strike out over and over again we need to swing and always remember it only takes that one hit to change things, perhaps forever.

What troubles me is that not everyone feels the same as you and I. There are people in this world and even in this Free Country of ours that hate us and would do us evil if we allowed them. This was proven to us on 9-11, when thousands of innocent and guiltless people died for the unforgivable sin of showing up to work, on a day much like any other. Loving all races and people is a wonderful dream and I believe it is a goal worthy of Sainthood. A goal I feel as a nation we have fought for it many times over the course of our history. But loving and wanting to be loved is not something that will guaranty us anything. Giving Osama bin Laden a hug or wishing Saddam "peace and the best that life offers" or any unanswered show of trying to get along would not have changed a thing that has happened to us or to the innocent people around the world that have died because of action those men took or encouraged others to take.

The point of the original e-mail as I understood it, was to look at Bill Clinton, his life choices and his time as President. Now God knows I see things through a set of colored glasses (much like everyone else) and don't always look at all sides of a question. But I do try and will continue to try hard to comprehend why something happens or someone feels a certain way. You see I observe things through glasses colored with the blood of many friends I lost in Viet Nam and around the world. I look through the pain that comes from being a young Green Beret waging war against other, and through the anguish of my memories of my time in that war. I look through the visions of 9-11 and the horror that day visited on the world. You are right, person such as you or I for the most part cannot make a difference that can be measured, except by historians who are from generations not yet born. We try our best and hope to influence others by our actions. But our President can and has made a difference with his actions or lack of, in countless lives and in immeasurable ways throughout the history of our nation.

I am sure you would agree that not all those differences have been positive, nor would all people be in agreement that any one thing was right for all. The course of history has it's rough spots, mistakes, and wrong turns, much like everyone's life. But the choices that Bill Clinton made during his time in office were to many wrong and to some simply criminal. History will judge him for the actions he took, for the mistakes he made and for the consequences of his leadership. I imagine he will not be our greatest President nor I suspect the worst. But I for one will never look at the Oval Office in quite the same way, due to his action there (with an intern). Nor can I bring myself to believe that he could be so inept and blundering as to use our Armed Forces in the manner in which he did. Bill Clinton and his wife have changed things for all of us, from the surprising facts we learned like "oral sex isn't really sex at all", to the lies and disinformation that swept over the White House for those 8 years.

You must forgive me for expressing my frustrations and misgivings at what I see as considerable problems. I know that some of this happens with every President, from the infamous acts of President Kennedy and his girlfriends to President Nixon and his lies to us all. My hope is that we can look at these actions and judge them from the consequences that occur. Kennedy didn't have a chance to admit his mistakes but Nixon did and paid the price he should have. But Clinton has denied everything (or can't remember) and as the e-mail shows has not faced up to his mistakes or lived by the rule of law as is expected. History will judge him and his actions but it is up to us live with the results.

Take a moment and look at all the Terrorism and deaths caused by those acts. Time and time again America was attacked and we did very little. President George Bush when faced with yet another act of Terrorism on 9-11 and took action, which did make a difference. He was one person who stood up and said enough; he was one person who made a difference in a way only our President could. That action has changed things and will go on changing things to a degree that no one at this time can honestly measure. He has taken the lead and in many cases the blame for those actions. As you said, "we can't blame one person for everything", but we can blame our President for lack of action, for indecisiveness that allowed people like Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hassain to destroy civilization and slaughter people as a result of their warped ideas and desires.

In the 60's the call was for "Just give peace a chance" and millions dropped out, and were sure everything would work out. Due to the peace movement and our peace treaty with the North Vietnamese we left millions of that nation to die in camps and another country to live under Communism. In Iran we stopped supporting the Shah of Ivan because President Carter didn't like how he ran his country and wanted him to adopt a more civilized approach. The religious leaders that took over Iran now run the country and they took and held our embassy personnel captive. Our captives stayed that way until President Reagan made a difference. Not only were our people released but also in time another evil in the form of the USSR fell apart. This all came about due to the actions and determination of One Man.

President Carter made one big mistake, he thought just because he felt that something was right everyone could and should do it his way. He demanded that our allies hold themselves to our standards and once again one man changed history. We have proven repeatedly that the peoples of the world must develop to a degree that they can live up to our standards and freedom. We cannot impose our principles on someone and expect there to be an automatic transformation to our level or that everyone will be as successful as America has been. We need to understand how others think and what our actions will do to them.

I am confident these facts are true, as I have recalled them but I anticipate a number of people could look at those times and see something entirely different. I simply am making a statement and drawing conclusions as I see them. I recognize we have to labor to improve our nation and mankind as a whole. I yearn for for all people to love each other and for each and every one to be responsible for their actions. I yearn for mankind to evolve into caring and reasonable individuals. But until that happens I will continue to look for those elected officials that don't make a difference and vote for someone who does. I resolve to continually be aware that others from every far corner of the globe as well as here at home, hate us and mean to do us harm. I will do my best, and expect others to do their best also. Not everything President Bush has done while in office has felt right to me, nor am I under the misguided expectation that he will in the future. But in my measurement he has made a difference, that should have been made years ago.

History has taught me one valuable lesson, "we are not all alike nor are we all in the same space". I continue to wish the best for others but demand safely and security for those I love as well as myself. Loving all races is an honorable pursuit, but in the stark reality of these trying times it obtains us nothing without that love being returned. I fear that making a difference and limiting the amount of terrorism in the world will only happen when others understand that the United States will not allow it's citizens to be killed at home or around the world. I believe that as a country we are making a difference in the world. America is furthering freedom in the world today and our President has set a course that will change things forever more. Will that be enough; will others through down their arms and embrace us as brothers? No, but one step is a start.

In a recent interview General Norman Schwartzkof was asked if he thought there was room for forgiveness toward the people who have harbored and abetted the terrorists who perpetrated the 9-11 attacks on America. His answer: "I believe that forgiving them is God's function. Our job is simply to arrange the meeting". No one person can change a terrorist's agenda, but we can and must stop it from happening to the best of our ability. Much like the ***** in World War II, the only thing that will improve the situation is to eliminate the infection and bring to trial those the broke not only mans law but Gods law as well.

As for Hillary, I'm not a supporter ether, I'm just making a statement, looking at the consequences of the actions of her and her husband and saying a pray for our future which I hope has little to do with ether one.

May God Bless American and Keep us Safe.

1pump · 10-06-2003, 08:50 AM

Straydog · 10-06-2003, 09:02 AM

"Very worthy read" is definately in the eyes and mind of the beholder.

I am sorry I wasted my time.

Steelhead Hound · 10-06-2003, 09:20 AM

I WASTED MY TIME... THATS BS. ONE OTHER THING.....IF YOU CHEAT ON YOUR WIFE IS IT ANY OF MY BUSINESS????......GET A CLUE BUDDY...THIS UNCLE OF YOURS NEEDS HELP.

[ 10-06-2003, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: Steelhead Hound ]

Phil Layer · 10-06-2003, 10:27 AM

2Leys,

Do you fish? I look at your past posts and see nothing but political posts. Thanks for not putting these on the fishing boards but do you make any other contributions to this website?

Reelentless · 10-06-2003, 02:07 PM

2LEYS, Dont let these guys deter you from posting. I appreciated it.

freespool, lighten up a little. Jeez. I've read a few "doozies" of yours regarding GW.

10-06-2003, 02:27 PM

What a load of ....
Last time I ever read any of your threads [img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img] 2LEYS

You would have thought I would have learned after reading your post laughing about Roy of Seigfried and Roy getting nearly mauled to death.

freespool · 10-06-2003, 02:50 PM

Northriverman,glad you enjoyed my posts on GW. I'am sure with the coming election I can do much better. I too would like to thank you for your insightful posts on forestry and fish management,very educational.

Cool Texan · 10-06-2003, 03:33 PM

And the "thread death-spiral" begins...

2LEYS · 10-06-2003, 03:36 PM

Can you give a little more feedback other than "that was dumb."

Your guys hatred for conservatives is crazy.

[ 10-06-2003, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: 2LEYS ]

roadsend · 10-06-2003, 03:59 PM

2leys
I for one agree with the vast majority of the content of your uncles statement. Keep posting this kind of message. It nees to be heard.

IMO you were out of line on the tiger mauling thread. There is nothing funny about a tragedy of this kind.

WheresMyBobber · 10-06-2003, 04:13 PM

2LEYS:

What I got from what you posted had little to do with terrorism and more to do with the same old R vs D rhetoric.

I keep seeing people blame Clinton for not dealing with terrorism, but the thing about Clinton's response to terrorism that most people don't understand is during his Presidency, the level of terrorist organization and determination was not fully understood. Sure, we all know there were incidents of terrorism, and that Osama was a terrorist and even trained terrorists, but no one knew how well organized, financed, and determined they were until 9/11. President Bush just happened to be president when the spit hit the fan.

Our Presidents rely on information from agencies like the FBI, CIA, NSA and others to help make their decisions. That is how it should be. The problem is (was), is that these organizations were not working well together or sharing information like they should have been before 9/11. Even the Joint Terrorism Task Force which is comprised of people from all these agencies didn't realize the threat we faced. The brass in these organizations didn't take the threat as seriously as they should have. Given that scenario, no president would have acted more forcefully than Clinton did. Do you think there would have been support for an invasion of Afghanistan before 9/11? No way.

There are some well written and reasearched books on the topic - "The New Jackals" written in 1999 and "The Cell" written after 9/11 are two good ones. I highly recommend reading these or other books rather than relying on headlines or the 5-o-clock news to get the full story.

If mud slinging is what you really want to accomplish, you should know that there were credible threats about terrorists hi******* planes in the US during the spring and summer preceeding 9/11, but nothing was done. But mud slinging will accomplish nothing.

[ 10-06-2003, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: WheresMyBobber ]

2LEYS · 10-06-2003, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Given that scenario, no president would have acted more forcefully than Clinton did.

BS

And let me clarify. This wasn't just a pointless attack on your beloved Clinton. This was in response to this origional e-mail:

Quote:

Terrorism has been happening for years. Bad things happen every day and will continue to happen every day. We can't just blame one person for everything. It isn't up to just one person. It is the responsibility of all of us in our every day life. We need to learn to love all races. This is a free country and we have hundreds of nationalities in the United States. Let's all get along. I'm not in support of Hillary, I'm just making a statement. Hopefully we came make a difference and limit the amount of terrorism in the world.

Which was in response to this e-mail:

Quote:

Billy And His Bride

Bill Clinton registers for the draft on September 08, 1964, accepting all contractual conditions of registering for the draft. Given Selective Service Number 3 26 46 228.

Bill Clinton classified 2-S on November 17, 1964.

Bill Clinton reclassified 1-A on March 20, 1968.

Bill Clinton ordered to report for induction on July 28, 1969.

Bill Clinton dishonors order to report and is not inducted into the military..

Bill Clinton reclassified 1-D after enlisting in the United States Army Reserves on August 07,1969 under authority of Col.E.Holmes.

Clinton signs enlistment papers and takes oath of enlistment.

Bill Clinton fails to report to his duty station at the University of Arkansas ROTC, September 1969.

Bill Clinton reclassified 1-A on October 30, 1969, as enlistment with Army Reserves is revoked by Colonel E. Holmes and Clinton now AWOL and subject to arrest under Public Law 90-40 (2)(a) "registrant who has failed to report....remain liable for induction".

Bill Clinton's birth date lottery number is 311, drawn December 1,1969, but anyone who has already been ordered to report for induction is INELIGIBLE!

Bill Clinton runs for Congress (1974), while a fugitive from justice under Public Law 90-40.

Bill Clinton runs for Arkansas Attorney General (1976), while a fugitive from justice.

Bill Clinton receives pardon on January 21, 1977, from Carter.

Bill Clinton (FIRST PARDONED FEDERAL FELON) ever to serve as President.

All these facts come from Freedom of Information requests, public laws, and various books that have been published, and have not been refuted by Clinton..

After the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, which killed six and injured 1,000; President Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.

After the 1995 bombing in Saudi Arabia, which killed five U.S. military personnel; Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.

After the 1996 Khobar Towers bombing in Saudi Arabia, which killed 19 and injured 200 U.S. military personnel; Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.

After the 1998 bombing of U.S. embassies in Africa, which killed 224 and injured 5,000; Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.

After the 2000 bombing of the USS Cole, which killed 17 and injured 39 U.S. sailors; Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.

Maybe if Clinton had kept those promises, an estimated 3,000 people in New York and Washington, D.C. that are now dead would be alive today.

AN INTERESTING QUESTION:
This question was raised on a Phill! y radio call-in show. Without casting stones, it is a legitimate question. There are two men, both extremely wealthy. One develops relatively cheap software and gives billions of dollars to charity. The other sponsors terrorism. That being the case, why was it that the Clinton Administration spent more money chasing down Bill Gates over the eight years in office, than Osama bin Laden? THINK ABOUT IT!

It is a strange turn of events. Hillary gets $8 Million for her forthcoming memoir.

Bill gets about $12 Million for his memoir yet to be written. This from two people who spent 8 years being unable to recall anything about past events while under oath!

Sincerely, Cdr. Hamilton McWhorter USN (ret)

P.S. Please forward this to as many people as you can! We don't want this woman to even THINK of running for President

WheresMyBobber · 10-06-2003, 04:51 PM

Everything you just posted about Clinton reinforces the fact that a president relies on information and intelligence from the FBI, CIA, NSA and others before he can act. If those agencies aren't playing well together, you can't expect any president to know what's going on in the terrorist world. But I don't want to confuse you with facts. I think I'll just join the ranks of those who will be ignoring your posts from now on. :smile:

2LEYS · 10-06-2003, 05:02 PM

I will point you out next time you reply to one of my posts.

Born to Fish · 10-06-2003, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 2LEYS:
I will point you out next time you reply to one of my posts.

Am I confused, or is this some sort of threat?

[img]graemlins/icon_argue.gif[/img]

DanS · 10-06-2003, 05:46 PM

"Hey look.......he posted! He posted on my thread!"

You're slipping backward dude. Your comments yesterday about Roy got you rolling, and you appear to be picking up speed.

freespool · 10-06-2003, 06:08 PM

This thread seems to be only a thinly vailed disguise. The real topic is,who on ifish most sounds like Rush Limbaugh?

StinkyH · 10-06-2003, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 2LEYS:
I will point you out next time you reply to one of my posts.

Like this?

StinkyH

[ 10-06-2003, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: StinkyH ]

lingslayer · 10-06-2003, 06:30 PM

2Leys,
Thank you.
I have never been a rabid conservative, and even voted for Carter over Ford.
But despite what clinton did to the integrity of the office, Monica and Paula, I have always contended it was what he didn't do that he should have been impeached for.

From his lack of action when the Yen fell, to his understating the danger after the terrorist acts mentioned, to his lack of long term economic vision that put us where we are now, clinton mired this country in the biggest foriegn policy and economic crisis we have ever been in.

And for those that like to point fingers at Ken Lay and Enron and others,... Who was in office when those crooked execs and their companies were building their empires?
Mr. clinton,... but he was looking the other way.

I'm sure many will see it otherwise, but they are looking the other way too. Towards the destruction of George Bush's presidency. You may hate him for doing what he's doing or done,
But he did something. And only time will tell if it is worthwhile.

I believe it will come out in his favor, and intend to do my part to see that he gets a another four years to see it through.

Jamie

StinkyH · 10-06-2003, 06:36 PM

[ 10-06-2003, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: StinkyH ]

BrionLutz · 10-06-2003, 06:40 PM

2LEYS,

Quote:

It is a strange turn of events. Hillary gets $8 Million for her forthcoming memoir. Bill gets about $12 Million for his memoir yet to be written.

The number you probably need to focus on is Cheney gets $30M from Halliburton and Halliburton gets $7B in no-bid contracts to "rebuild" Iraq from a war that Cheney lied to get the US into that will cost the US $500B over next 4 years.

Now that is justifed executive compensation for you.

Brion

DanS · 10-06-2003, 06:56 PM

So lingslayer,

Tell us about GW's overwhelming success at turning the economy around.

lingslayer · 10-06-2003, 07:07 PM

We've been over this before. Rebuilding the economy based on the durable goods manufacturing sectors of this country's workforce will take time and lots of corporate incentives for investment.

Going for another of slick willie's quick fixes isn't the answer. That's what put us here. His economic house of cards collapsed and took the whole shebang down with it.

Granted the effects of 9/11 and the war took/are taking lots of money to run. But I don't believe we could afford the luxury of waiting any longer to get the rat's nest over there cleaned out.
Jamie

[ 10-06-2003, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: lingslayer ]

DanS · 10-06-2003, 07:21 PM

So, then maybe you can tell us specifically what Clinton did to ruin the economy.

lingslayer · 10-06-2003, 07:49 PM

Sure Dan,
Did you read this thread?:

http://www.ifish.net/cgi-local/ultim...4;t=002041;p=2

clinton's policies favoring sevice sector jobs and penalizing manufacturers did the trick. The collapse of the dot coms was a foretelling that he ignored. The service sector produces no tangible goods that hold value. The investments made in service industries evaporated as soon as the recession clinton started took hold, and took the foundation out from under his false economy.

Couple that with a runaway stock market fueling the economy from the top down and you have a recipe for disaster that Greenspan was railing about and nobody in willie's house cared.

Since you apparently didn't read the other thread,... Here's an excerpt:

Quote:
But the facts are the the facts. And despite what you experienced, the Bureau of Labor and Statistics proves you wrong. And while I am sure he thought the growth would trickle down, the services sector isn't known for economic stability.

1) Between 1993 (clinton's inaugural year) and 2001 (Bush's inaugural year) the workforce in the US grew by 21.2%. We're talking total workforce here. All people available to work.

2) The goods producing job sectors grew by only 7.4% over the same period.

3) The manufacturing sector's growth over the same period peaked the year before willie left office at just over 2% growth, and shows a net LOSS of nearly 2% over the same period.

4) The service sectors grew by 21.8%, outpacing the growth in the overall workforce.

Want proof? Here is the website for historical data by job sector at the Bureau of Labor and Statistics:

ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/suppl/empsit.ceseeb1.txt

Do a little math, its all there.

This wasn't happenstance. It was the result of poor economic management and lack of long term vision. Furthermore, there were unique circumstances during willie's terms that should have given us a HUGE upper hand economically. The collapse of the Yen and Indonesia's troubles during his presidency presented opportunities that could have allowed us huge strides in domestic economic growth through goods producing industrial growth. Unfortunately he didn't have the foresight or economic savvy to run with it.

My previous post wasn't just my opinion. It is based on hard data used for economic predictions the dept. of HUD uses daily to underwrite housing construction loans."

Happy reading, :smile:
Jamie

DanS · 10-06-2003, 08:24 PM

OK Jamie,

I can see the dynamics of what happened, but which Clinton policies led to it? Specifically.........and I'm asking to further my own understanding, not because I'm a Clinton lover who refuses to blame him for anything.

lingslayer · 10-06-2003, 09:20 PM

Again Dan, It wasn't so much what he did as what he didn't do. He had to have seen what was happening. I know he heard what was going to happen from Greenspan and he stood up there telling us what great shape our economy was in, when it was on the verge of a collapse that we will no doubt feel for the next decade.

Did he push for more industry friendy domestic and foreign policies?? Nope.

Did he reduce red tape for infastructure development and corporate reinvestment?? Nope

The cabinet he put in place with a sect. of the interior that was anti industry and pro environment didn't help.

His tax policies toward "corporate welfare" and companies paying "their fair share" hurt. (Oregon, especially the Portland area has the same problem)

His push for the WTO and NAFTA were misguided and badly timed. You can't trade what you haven't built and can't acquire the raw materials for.

His ineptitude concerning the financial collapse of our large competitor for big/med ticket items, Japan, and their heavy investments in US companies didn't help either. When they pulled in their horns on reinvestment to keep those companies afloat there was a pefect opportunity to float loans for domestic buy outs and he didn't do it.

Tort reform to prevent legal battles that hinder
industries from expansion and startup was explored and he stated unequivocally he would veto it.

This recession started on his watch. The 2000 election was more than a year away when we first started to feel it, and it was nearly a year old at that point. If you were in a big money business like commercial development you were feeling it. There was something of a rush to get all you could before it all fell apart.

He was told by economic experts it was coming and he sat on his hands knowing it would fall heavily on his successor and all of US.

He did nothing about it.

For the record I am not that big of fan of GW. But I see him doing many of the things that need to be done to rebuild this country's economy with a solid industrial foundation. And unfortunately he seems to be the only politico with the advisors that know what's up and the guts to tell him so. At least his sights are on the long term.

Jamie

PS. And Al campaigned on all he and willie had done economically. That is why I voted against Al, and would again. And anyone else that promises a quick fix.

lingslayer · 10-06-2003, 09:32 PM

2LEYS,
Sorry for hi-******* your thread. But I thought it was relevant.
Thanks again,
J

freespool · 10-06-2003, 09:32 PM

I shouldn't tell you guys this,but the more energy you spend on Clinton,the less chance your guy is going to get reelected.

2LEYS · 10-06-2003, 09:38 PM

Lingslayer, go on with your bad self.

It is funny how people can blame Bush for the economy and then preach Clinton's innocence. I don't know if either is really to "blame" but I just think it is funny.

happybrew · 10-06-2003, 10:45 PM

I think Phil Layer has a point. When was the last time you went fishing? Did you post about it? I post EVERY time I go. Granted, the bulk of my posts the last few months have not been fishing related, as my time to go fishing has been limited... But ONCE on the Ifish Community since July???? Even I do better than that. You gotta get on the water dude. You need to get your line wet. It will give you perspective. As much as I may disagree with the liberals on this board, I still like 'em, and would fish with 'em, though they may not want to fish with me, who knows. But you gotta get yourself on the water and post your results, man. All politics and no fishing makes Jack a dull boy. God's creation experienced in full with a rod in hand will do you a world of good. Don't make excuses that you're too busy. Get on the water, and post your results!

happybrew

freespool · 10-06-2003, 11:45 PM

2LEYS,it never ceases to amaze me every time I open one of your posts. That kind of thinking is sick and wrong. It makes me wonder where your head is at. Hold it I think I know where your head is.

2LEYS · 10-06-2003, 11:47 PM

I havn't been fishing in a long time, new baby and all. But have went hunting and post on the hunting board quite a bit. Didn't know it was a requirement though.

happybrew · 10-07-2003, 06:39 AM

Congrats on the baby! But ya really need to go fishing! I went yesterday, and I feel SOOOOO much better! :grin:

happybrew

Steelhead Hound · 10-07-2003, 07:37 AM

I FOR ONE AM SICK OF MOST OF 2LEYS POSTS. SOME OF THEM LIKE THIS ON, ARE OK, BUT THE ONES LIKE LAUGHING ABOUT SOMEONE GETTING MAULED BY A TIGER. WHAT ARE YOU THINKING?????? REALLY I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW. I FOR ONE WILL NOT POST ON HIS THREADS THAT HAVE NOT POINT BUT TO HARASS AND MAKE FUN OF PEOPLE THAT ARE IN PAIN OR HAVE DIED DUE TO AN ACCIDENT. "OH, LETS GIVE HIM THE DARWIN AWARD..." GET A CLUE BUDDY.

[ 10-07-2003, 08:39 AM: Message edited by: Steelhead Hound ]

STGRule · 10-07-2003, 07:52 AM

Umm, Mr. Hound? Could you please disengage your cap lock? Appearing to yell doesn't help the message.

DanS · 10-07-2003, 07:58 AM

I'd fish with you any time, happybrew. I lean to the left, but not too far. Funny thing is, when you're on the water enjoying someone's company......it doesn't matter what their political or religious beliefs are. It's just nice to spend a day with a fellow fisher.

Jamie,

Thanks for taking the time to reply. Much obliged.

2LEYS · 10-07-2003, 08:56 AM

Steelhead hound, we have disagreed and you for one seem to have really taken it personally. You email me at home rather than post it on the board? I can get past one disagreement and be freindly on another post. You seem unable to do that.

People like Stray dog and Silver Hilton I have disagreed with a lot. But they are very civil towards me and I (think) to them. We hold decent non mud slinging debates. Others can't seem to get past differences and throw nothing but stones. There are very few on this board that I wouldn't go fishing with.

Happybrew, I am hoping to get away next weekend for some fishing. Good therapy.

STGRule · 10-07-2003, 09:08 AM

2leys, I believe the e-mails fit right in with the AUP. From the Acceptable Use Policy:

Quote:

It is perfectly understandable that from time to time you may take offense at something that was written here, but rather than subject everyone to an emotional response, consider the broader audience. Take it to private e-mail or simply count to 10 and ignore it.

roadsend · 10-07-2003, 07:54 PM

Happybrew ey al.
"As much as I may disagree with the liberals on this board, I still like 'em, and would fish with 'em"

I understand your attitude. Some of my best friends are liberals. I have been a union member most of my life. I even voted for Clinton twice, but would never do it again. His last term and the pardons made me a believer. I changed my registration when the Demos began marching to the left in lockstep on moral and constitutional issues heretofore not necessarily political and certainly not the exclusive turf of either party. I don't really consider myself a Republican but I feel the Demos have left me little choice. I don't think that I am the Lone Ranger in these matters.
Who I fish and socialize with does not depend on politics. I even went fishing with a few public employees this year and I would still rather be seen going into a *****-house than into a hotel owned by a certain extreme union basher.

DanS · 10-07-2003, 08:05 PM

Quote:

I don't really consider myself a Republican but I feel the Demos have left me little choice.

You and me both, man. I feel alienated by both parties....neither major party appeals to me much at all any more.

We need a thrid party who isn't subject to the party browbeating that R and D candidates always are. If you get out of step with the party...look out because your political career is going nowhere. And we voters are too caught up in the "if I don't vote for a well-funded R candidate, then a well-funded D candidtae will win" and the sensible candidate without the funds (because he/she hasn't let interest groups determine their vote) gets no attention at all.

We're getting exactly what we deserve, I guess. 70%nof us are registered voters and maybe 50% of them vote. That's 35% of the population that votes, yet everyone squawks.

Sad.

happybrew · 10-07-2003, 09:22 PM

I also feel alienated by both parties. On the one hand, the Democrats support domestic policies which I feel are detrimental to the character of individuals, such as welfare and abortion, yet the far right Republicans support domestic policies which are detrimental to the obligations of a civilized people, such as too extreme a denial of welfare, and too great a willingness to wage war. On foreign policy, neither party really impresses me. Neither party supports what I believe in, although the Republicans come closest with a strong national defense. The only problem is the willingness to use that as a strong national offense. As a result, I tend to vote on the issue I feel is most important, which is pro-life. After the recent war, in the next Republican primary, I will vote for an anti-war, anti-abortion candidate. Failing that, in the general election I will probably end up voting Republican unless the Democrats amaze me by having a pro-life candidate. I have no illusions about either party really doing the right thing. What really amazed and disappointed me in the last election was how GW tied up the nomination without any votes being cast by tying up all the money. I wanted Bob Dole under Clinton, then Elizabeth Dole in the last election, but as usual, I got none of what I wanted.

I think we really need to look at the future. We're not going to get what we want anytime soon. I'm considering volunteering for Jackie Winter's campaign if she decides to go for Congress. She's a pro-life, black female Republican in Salem. Her fiscal policies are not quite what I'd like, but that's because of the realism of having to provide for those less fortunate under a bloated system that wastes resources. Maybe someday things will work out and she'll run for president. She's got some stiff comptetition, though, the same institutional ineffective Republicans that Oregon seems to be plagued with. Perhaps if she wins for congress, and Mannix wins for Governor, we'll be okay. I'd take either her or Mannix as president someday.

And Dan, I'd love to go fishing with you. Perhaps when I'm on vacation later this month? I'll e-mail you.

happybrew

Steelhead Hound · 10-07-2003, 11:21 PM

STG I didn't know that meant I was yelling.

2LEYS · 10-07-2003, 11:43 PM

Quote:

If you get out of step with the party...look out because your political career is going nowhere.

That pretty much sums up the two parties. Like a pro-life or pre-gun Democrat would ever get very high up the political ladder without changing or a pro-choice anti-gun Rebublican for the reps. (Arnold is a pro-choice/anti-gun Rep by the way)

But do we really have much choice on who to vote for? One of the two is all you really can do at least for president. Party lines get tighter the higher up you go. A third pary or ind really has no chance for pres....

STGRule · 10-07-2003, 11:49 PM

From the AUP

Quote:

Please use proper upper and lower case when posting messages. Posting messages all in "CAPS" MAKES IT APPEAR THAT YOU ARE SHOUTING AT US! It is also very difficult to read these messages and many readers will simply bypass them. If you have something valuable or interesting to say, make it easy for us to read your message.

It's just to make things easier to read.

StinkyH · 10-07-2003, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Steelhead Hound:
STG I didn't know that meant I was yelling.

Then why'd you do it?

StinkyH

[ 10-07-2003, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: StinkyH ]

roadsend · 10-08-2003, 12:34 AM

"As a result, I tend to vote on the issue I feel is most important, which is pro-life."

This type of attitude absolutely drives political idealogues crazy.

DanS · 10-08-2003, 07:39 AM

Sure, happybrew. Drop me a line when you get an idea of when you can go and we'll drop the ol' driftboat in the water and make some fish sorry they met us!

Talk to you later.........

[ 10-08-2003, 08:40 AM: Message edited by: DanS ]