WE voted it into law..

24 on/ 48 off · 10-02-2003, 01:35 PM

Twice, Oregon voters have approved physician-assisted suicide.

Last year, John Ashcroft, at the request of the Bush administration, stated that he was going to push for doctors to have their license revoked if they write lethal presciptions.

Is this fair?

--spud-- :smile:

Killertraylor · 10-02-2003, 02:04 PM

You've just asked a question that will take lawyers several hundred hours and several million dollars to brief and argue before the Supreme Court. Unfortunately, there isn't a simple answer, but my hunch is that the Fed. law would prevail. Oregon is "WAY OUT THERE" on this one. I might be mistaken, but I think we are the only state in the union with a law of this type. Most of the cases I read while in law school on this topic came down squarely on the side of life. It will be difficult to overcome that precedent.

Good question though, spud!

Cool Texan · 10-02-2003, 02:05 PM

Yes, I believe it to be fair.

El Shaddai · 10-02-2003, 02:32 PM

The underlying question is who has the "final say" when it comes to legislating morality? The people? The executive branch? The courts? All laws are basically a moral code of conduct....

Seattle voters recently approved a marijuana referendum.......abortion, prohibition and many other moral issues have come under attack from all sides......who decides the outcome?

What if the people vote down a tax increase but the legislature passes one anyway? Oh wait that would never happen.........er, never mind.

Silver Hilton · 10-02-2003, 04:27 PM

Though I am in favor of the euthanasia initiative, and of the state marijuana initiatives, I understand the legal principle that requires federal law to triumph. Think back to the civil war. The root issue there was whether the federation could mandate laws that overruled state laws. We fought a war to settle the question.

Joe Schwab · 10-02-2003, 06:10 PM

If anyone is really in that big of a hurry to get to the great beyond, why do they need a doctor to do it for them? Have some courage! A gallon of Jack Daniels and a bottle of Motrin will do the job and be more enjoyable.

jocose · 10-02-2003, 06:23 PM

bon jovi said it best.... "ITS MY LIFE" think ill do with it as i want, they can arrest my corpse when check out time comes if it offends society. joco

Lured In · 10-02-2003, 06:32 PM

The issue I have with this has less to do with morality than with education. "We" (the general public) are driven by what "we" want, not necessarily by what a doctor is motivated by. (Not trying to speak for doctors). I doubt that "we" really understand the issues behind this from a medicinal standpoint and the impact it may have.

For instance (guessing here), at what point does a doctor 'recommend' assisting you versus treating you? Kind of a wierd coversation to have with a doctor...

"Well Mr. Jones, I am not sure we can get rid of the cancer without you experiencing significant physical and emotional pain, and it may not work. Would you rather we just end it now?"

What if someone changes their mind while bieng "euthanized"?

Kind of hard to take back.

On the moral side, I find it intersting that in so many things (rivers, forests, earth in general) we want it 'natural'. But when it comes to our own end, we would rather let science and chemicals do the job.

Personally, I wait until the lights go out in my head and if for some reason my heart keeps pumping, just pull the plug.

[img]graemlins/hearton.gif[/img]

STGRule · 10-02-2003, 06:50 PM

Capt.: I was told by a paramedic at Lake Mead who had to leave a class I was at to go out into the desert to pick up two girls who had each drank a large bottle of liquid Tylenol that it was one of the most awful ways to die. You will live a week or so as first your liver and then other organs shut down. He told me that liver shut down causes a great deal of pain and there isn't anything they can do about the damage and it takes days and days to die. I'd bet that the alcohol would wear off in a few hours and then you get to die fully aware and in pain.

Now for my personal assisted suicide story. I went to the funeral of the pastor of our church when I was growing up. I found out at the funeral that he had used assisted suicide. This was a man with a full family: wife, children, and grandchildren. He was not destitute. He was a great lover of the outdoors and all it involved. He hiked, hunted, fished, and camped. He loved life as only a man of the cloth could have and yet he chose that option. I would NEVER in my world make that choice for another. That has to be the most personal choice anybody could make and it is between him or her and God. NOT us.

24 on/ 48 off · 10-02-2003, 06:58 PM

Physicians do not recommend suicide. Only a select few would even consider writingt he prescription. Doctors have to make the choice as well.

In order to be a candidate for assisted suicide, you must:

1- Be examined by two doctors independantly. Both must certify that in their opinion, you have less than six months to live.

2- You must be examined by a psychiatrist.

3- You must wait at least two weeks after requesting the prescription, before the doctor will give it to you.

--spud-- :smile:

BrionLutz · 10-02-2003, 08:24 PM

SilverHilton,

Quote:

I understand the legal principle that requires federal law to triumph. Think back to the civil war.

Not quite a case of Federalism.

This is not similar to issue of slavery and the Civil War. Even there, the Federal Gov't action was not in overruling the state laws but in saying slavery would not be legal in new territories. The Southern states withdrew from the Union, that was the basis for the Civil War.

Ashcroft is using the flimsiest legal cover to justify trying to overturn a state law.

"Ashcroft argues that federal law prohibits doctors from dispensing "controlled substances" except for "legitimate medical purposes,"

Bush Jr and Ashcroft claim to have a moral objection based upon their religious beliefs. Though that "morality" is certainly suspect since they also claim to champion state's rights.

Since they have jettisoned their "morality" on the issue, this is more a political decision to appeal to their extreme religious base.

Brion

lost_sailor · 10-02-2003, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Capt. Hook:
Have some courage! A gallon of Jack Daniels and a bottle of Motrin will do the job and be more enjoyable.

You've never seen someone die from cancer, have you?

1pump · 10-03-2003, 01:16 AM

Quote:

If anyone is really in that big of a hurry to get to the great beyond, why do they need a doctor to do it for them? Have some courage! A gallon of Jack Daniels and a bottle of Motrin will do the job and be more enjoyable.

OK, but if you're not successful in achieving that end, then you would get arrested if/when you come out of your coma. Or worse yet, you could linger for months and rack up a huge hospital bill for your survivors to be stuck with. Oh boy.
Hopefully Ashcroft will just be a bad memory in about 15 months.

pdxkevin · 10-03-2003, 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 24 on/ 48 off:
[QB] Twice, Oregon voters...

Is this fair?

.
It doesn't really matter what OR voters vote for or against; nor does it matter the number of times. When the State Gov wants to do something or not do something - it's always for our own good, even if we think differently about it. Does raising taxes ring a bell?

WaterDog · 10-03-2003, 07:02 AM

Originally posted by lost_sailor:

Quote:

You've never seen someone die from cancer, have you?

Obviously he has not.

Anyone who has watched a family member or friend suffer would never post such a thing. :depressed:

Fishplay · 10-06-2003, 09:53 AM

Right on STGrule. [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

It's ironic that these self professed people of high moral fiber who question the ethics and morality of assisted suicide are the same ones who champion human rights and humane treatment of animals.

No one would think of allowing their pet to suffer a long painful death. Euthanasia is entirely acceptable for Rover (because we love him dearly) but not for ourselves.

It's time we started loving ourselves and each other as much as we love our pets.

2LEYS · 10-06-2003, 03:47 PM

The only problem I have with the issue is people doing it just to save their families medical bills. Not nessasarily a doctor convincing them to do it but them just deciding to do it because they are poor or do not have thet good of insurance.

Cool Texan · 10-06-2003, 04:02 PM

2L, which brings up a good point.... should the surviving family of someone who chooses this still be eligible for life insurance collection?? I dont know the answer, was just struck by the question after reading your post.

Joe Schwab · 10-06-2003, 05:14 PM

Lost Sailor, You better believe I have and I was there when the last breath was taken. They did not ask anyone else to end their suffering either. They (and I refer to three) were full of courage to the end. I was being facetious with the booze thing. Sorry if I offended anyone. But I do not believe in assisted suicide. Never assume you know all the answers.

[ 10-06-2003, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: Capt. Hook ]

24 on/ 48 off · 10-06-2003, 05:32 PM

Most life insurance policies do not pay out on suicides.

--spud-- :smile:

lost_sailor · 10-06-2003, 07:12 PM

I like to think I would tough it out too, but having seen how horrible those last days are - you can see why someone might want to just check out a little early. Why should it not be an option?

The issue is about state's rights ... and there is something in that Constitution thingy about that. I guess the Republican party still favors a powerful federal government?

DanS · 10-06-2003, 08:36 PM

Sure they do.....when it suits their needs.

fishingchef · 10-06-2003, 10:14 PM

I just recently Watched my little sister die of cancer. It was the most ghastly thing I ever witnessed. 10 years ago a friend of mine had liver cancer and decided to die on his morphine first. It was a much more pleasant exit to watch.
I brought this option up to my sister she didn't want to. But a couple days before she died and was strugling for air and in great pain she told she wished she had listen to me some more and seriously considered it when she had the time.

I support the Oregon law full force.

Ashcroft and the whole bush regime are way out of control. For those of you who think these men are christians you should look at this site( http://www.infowars.com/bg1.html ) and or see the documentry.
bush jr and sr, the vice president and many others have gone to this location and have participated in pagen scrafices to the owl god.

STGRule · 10-07-2003, 06:22 AM

I can't remember where I read/heard this but I believe that very few of the people that go through the process of obtaining the medical clearance and getting the prescriptions actually go through with it. Most die of what they were ill with. It gave then the peace of mind to die in their own time without the fear of unbearable pain and agony. It becomes a comfort thing as much as an ending.

Smj · 10-07-2003, 06:52 AM

In the last week and a half I've watched two long term clients (turned friends) die. They both were up there in years, one was 89 and has suffered with ALS(Lou Gerrigs disease) since '73, he needed to go he was miserable. The other was the best friend of the wife of the ALS sufferer and in her eighties, she was diagnosed with lung cancer about 7 months ago(never smoked a day in her life) and then they found cancer all through her body, luckily she didn't have to suffer to much.

The point of this is: I'm going to start collecting pills at some point in my life so I at least can look at them sitting there on the shelf and have comfort in knowing that I have that door to go through IF I CHOOSE!! Any body who disagrees with this can go to *ell!

The problem with the 6 month thing is that if you're that close to death the shrinks are going to say you can't be in you right mind to make that decision for yourself.

So, If you believe in death with dignity start collecting those pills, bullets...whatever soon before the people that think they know what's best for you butt in to your life!

Smj

El Shaddai · 10-07-2003, 07:25 PM

chef...........are you for real? How you can make such a serious, reckless and sick charge against the President?

fishinfool · 10-07-2003, 11:52 PM

To me this subject really hits home and is a very tough one to live with the thought that someone else can tell you to live or die. A little over two years ago my grandfather we stricken with PSP (Progressisve supranucular palsy) a disease only a handfull of doctors know anything about. We found out the when you are put under for surgery of anykind that is really all the help psp needs to take over your life and end it quickly. To bad we found this out after the heart surgery. This man fished and hunted and was a great mentor to me and taught me alot about life in general and now he is gone at the age of 75. Died May 31st of this year less than two years after diagnosis. He told doctors and his family including me he would end his suffering tomorrow if he could but of course the laws wouldn't let that happen.

So in effect I watched a perfectly healthy man who was strong as an ox go from that to death is less than two years and it was painful to watch what happened. I hate the fact that someone else told him he had to put up with this because some individual in congress decided so and I support assisted suicide to the fullest especially after having to watch what I did. :depressed: