Something is wrong !!!!!!!!

[Jetsledder]

You are not allowed to promote christianity in schools. But it is ok to promote homosexuality, and evolution in schools. Our society has lost any sense of anything that is moral. Our elected leaders lie, and missuse the position of authority that they are intrusted with. Our society has gone to showing compassion for criminals and less for the victim.

[Gun Rod Bow]

I usually avoid this page, but...

Welcome to the battle brother

Check this out

http://www.ifish.net/ubb/ultimatebb....;f=19;t=000354

Make your voice heard

[STGRule]

And it is up to us as parents to teach our children what we believe and why. It is up to us to live our lives as we want our children to live theirs so they will see the benefit. It is up to us as parents to welcome those children back if they choose and to love them anyway if they don't.

STG,
Right again :smile:

[Gun Rod Bow]

STG,

Hard to argue (even for me) with that! Walk the walk...

[Snapset]

If the question is why did the attacks happen on 9/11, then I think a big part of the answer is a group of radical Muslims felt it right to impose their religious beliefs on others. I don't see how weakening the constitutionally required separation of church and state could do anything but make the problem worse.

As far as the wickedness of certain parts of our national fabric wreaking havoc on our morality and the inevitable long term disasters that are coming our way as a result, I could not agree more.

[Straydog]

Here we go again... "the schools". Another broad based blanket generality.

What do you mean by "promoting" is my first question.

Exactly which schools are "promoting" homosexuality and/or evolution, would be my second question.

And yes, I too agree with STG but would add that it is also parent's job to be involved in their kids' schools and know just what they are "promoting" and not promoting. Then it is the parent's responsibility to challenge those teachers, principals, superintendants and/or school boards responsible for said promotion if it is goes beyond age appropriate teaching of different realities and/or theories.

[ 09-10-2003, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

For the wof wof

Gay Agenda in the Public School System

[ 09-10-2003, 11:57 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[Ryan Pultz]

Snapset Have you ever read the constitution it dose not ever say separation of church and state it dose make the rule the states nor federal government can’t interfere in religion or the church or freedom of speech it also says that there will not be any State or government ran church this was to avoid what they had just escaped to come to America in the first place they were getting away from the church of England and they did not want that to happen here in the Americas. That is were people get the separation of church and state. So no were dose it say my son can not share God with someone at school and if he and a group of kids want to pray before class they have that right. If he wants to show his bible in show and tell or tell the story of Jesus sacrifice for us in a report then he has that right. No were would him sharing the love of God worsen any situation Heck it might just Help.
Read it for your self Constitution or the USA

[TheRogue]

So....I guess if you're Muslim, Pagan, Aethiest, etc., you shouldn't have any place in public schools??

[pdxkevin]

WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness -- That to secure these Rights,... Declaration of Independence

George Washington, at the request of the Congress which passed the Bill of Rights, proclaimed a day of

"Public prayer, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and single favors of Almighty God".

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Patrick Henry

It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians....

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Theodore Roosevelt

We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not on the power of government...but upon the capacity of each and every one of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">

[ 09-11-2003, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: pdxkevin ]

[TheRogue]

And so, if you don't believe in any of these, or believe differently, you don't belong in this country??

[Gun Rod Bow]

Keta, Ryan,Row, PDX Kevin, [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

But, be careful, arguing facts with people driven by emotion will get you nowhere.

Dan S, the ACLU stops Christians from praying at school, at graduations, at football games. The same ACLU that forced the 10 Commandments out of the courthouse in Alabama. The same ACLU that sues in the name of "religous freedom" for a so called Muslim woman to be allowed to wear her head covering on the job. When the real Muslims that FORCE women to wear head coverings, would never imagine letting a woman have a job, especially ruling over men. Get a grip.

If anyone were to argue that our founding fathers were not Christians, and that they recognized that this country would never have been formed without the hand of God, would be frankly historically ignorant. 2/3 of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were Seminary Graduates. They prayed (In Congress) and asked for His help in forming a new, radical concept. That good people, Christians and non alike, should live in freedom because that is what God wants. And that a country where religous freedom, not uniformity would benefit man and please God.

I find it interesting that we look at other cultures from around the world and talk about how their rituals and customs should be preseved. But the American way of life is somehow embarrasing to the accademics.

I don't expect to change any minds here. But maybe, some who quietly agree, will be less quiet.

[lost_sailor]

If my kid's school starts promoting Christianity, I will be raising some hell. That's what church is for.

PROMOTING homosexuality? Give me a break!

[DanS]

Dan S, the ACLU stops Christians from praying at school, at graduations, at football games

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Do they?

Never stopped me. But then again I don't need an audience like some apparently do.

[DanS]

Gee.......if the schools teach tolerance for homosexuals and evolution, we'll ALL become homosexuals and heathens.

Won't we??

Who stops anyone from praying at school?

[RvW]

Too many people confuse the term "separation of church and state" as a phrase intended to say "stay out of each others affairs" when in-fact Jefferson had no such intention when he wrote the words.

""Believing with you [Danbury Baptists] that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."

Jeferson is saying his idea of legislation making any law respecting the establishment of religion WOULD be building a wall of separation between the church and the state and this he sought to prevent.

While folks may mis-interpret the words as they stand alone, lawmakers clearly stay within the intended guidelines of Jeffersons sentiments because schools are NOT a religious establishment. However, I agree that passing laws to keep religion out of schools is a farce and borders on a violation of our suposed freedom of speach (Which is also commonly mis-interpreted) due to the fact that we have a constitutionally protected right to speak in support or protest towards our governement. If government is going to snuggle up so closely with schools in support of a "no spiritual oppinion zone" we have every right to speak out about this, and ignore any law passed to refrain from religious oppinion in schools!
These types of laws are a pitiful option for accepting the responsibility of DIVERSITY in education (when the curriculum is religion) An "all or nothing" approach where apparently the schools and lawmakers have decided "nothing" is easier than the challenge of a well rounded, all inclusive (and often controversial) "ALL"

If the people who oppose the sanctioning of "religious oppinion" in schools would FORGET about thier prefered faith and support the right to express ANY belief, we would all get somewhere with this issue, but if the Muslims, and Christians and Buddhists and Athiests seperate themselves into groups claiming thier individual rights are more important, and the groups beliefs more righteous than each of the others...spiritual expression will never be acceptasble in schools, or anywhere else.

[Hoosier Daddy]

My two cents:

Raise your kids YOURSELF.

That's not the schools job.

If your kids are getting their morality and lifestyle teachings at school, something else is wrong......

"promoting homosexuality".....come on....
schools shouldn't teach ANY religion or ANY lifestyle, and they shouldn't HAVE to teach basic morality. Kids should have a good base in those things BEFORE they enter school.

I do think that schools should allow a brief period during the day for children that want to pray or worship to do so on their own. However, I also realize that 99% of the kids would use that as a time to freak out and raise hell, eliminating the usefulness of it to the other 1%, and driving the teacher nuts. Oh, I better just stop now, darnit.

[Straydog]

My daughter's elementary school offers one hour a week where by a local church van takes those that wish and have their parents ok to their church for religious study.

No one that I know of has ever been stopped or even noticed when silently praying in school. It happens often when there are tests, quizzes, or girls to be asked to the prom, is my bet.

BTW, I would still be very interested in knowing what some people consider "promoting" and exactly which schools are promoting homosexual behavior, service organizations and right wing extremist news sources not withstanding.....

[ 09-12-2003, 08:31 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[crabbait]

Hoozier Daddy - Amen, brutha!

[Silver Hilton]

I think a lot of people get worked up over homosexuality that don't need to. I think they worry that if we accept homosexuals and homosexual behavior, that it will somehow be 'catching'.

Homosexuality has been existent throughout recorded history. There have always been gays, there will always be gays. If you are reading this, you already know whether you are gay or not, and there is nothing you can do to change it. As you look over at your kids, realize that they are already either gay, or not, and there is nothing you can do to change that, either. About 3% of girls, and 8 to 10% of boys, will be gay. You can't change it.

If your kid isn't gay, there isn't any gay koolaid that someone is going to give him/her to make them suddenly start swishing. And if he/she is gay, there isn't any potion that you can feed them to make them straight. The evidence is solid that the difference is biological, and that it exists from birth.

What you can do, however, is decide whether you will be part of a group who tries to make their life hell, just because they happen to be wired differently than you. You could also realize that everyone of them has a parent just like you, and ask, what should I do towards that parent's child, as I would wish them to do towards mine, if our lots in life were reversed?

[ 09-12-2003, 09:03 AM: Message edited by: Silver Hilton ]

[Killertraylor]

Silver Hilton - do you really believe that 3% of girls and 8-10% of boys are "born" gay? I have a hard time believing that it's not a choice. If it isn't a choice and you are indeed "born" homosexual, then theoretically the homosexual population would just die off since they wouldn't reproduce - yet we still have homosexuality, so it must be a choice. Make sense? I'd speculate that there are as many studies that prove it's a choice as there are that proclaim it's biological, although I could be wrong.

I had a chance to review a social studies textbook from my neighbor's 3rd grader a few years ago and the textbook proclaimed that we were all here because of evolution. If you aren't going to permit the public schools to teach creation, then how can you permit them to teach evolution?

GRB, Keta, PdxKevin, Row and Ryan - can I get an Amen!

Parenting just keeps getting more and more important when your children can't get what they need from their school system. I applaud the many public school teachers (some of whom I had) who see the light and teach these subjects as they should be taught. I don't think it's right to generalize about public schools - there are stil some very good moral christian teachers in public schools who understand these issues and take education seriously. Our own HOGTIDE is one of them!

[ 09-12-2003, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: Killertraylor ]

[STGRule]

KT, I believe you are assuming that homosexuality is a genetic trait that you can pass on through reproduction. I don't believe that is the medical belief. I believe it is a brain wiring that happens at cell division, not a recessive gene.

[DanS]

I have a hard time believing that it's not a choice. If it isn't a choice and you are indeed "born" homosexual, then theoretically the homosexual population would just die off since they wouldn't reproduce - yet we still have homosexuality, so it must be a choice. Make sense? I'd speculate that there are as many studies that prove it's a choice as there are that proclaim it's biological, although I could be wrong.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Could be?

[Silver Hilton]

Killer,

There are many illnesses and traits that are genetically driven that do not have clear inheritance trails. My daughter has juvenile Rheumatoid arthritis, which affects about 1 out of 1000 children. This disease is clearly driven by the biology of her body, yet isn't inherited in a clear recessive/dominant fashion. It also would have (and did) killed off any carriers of the gene in earlier days, yet it's still part of our genome. There are hordes of diseases or syndromes like this that, despite being flawed parts of the body's machinery, that remain in our population.

As to what you believe, well, I can't change that. You can either do the google search and read what is out there and form your own educated opinion, or not. All the major news magazines and most major papers have published stories on the studies over the years. I think anyone who studies the issue objectively has to form the opinion that:

1) there is a clear genetic basis for homosexuality

2) people do not consciously choose to be straight or gay

3) there is no proven way to change people's sexual orientation. We can force them to associate with the "approved sexual partner" but we can't change who they are attracted to.

4) most people are pretty straight, and there is little likelihood of them changing that bias. I may think Robert Redford was a good looking guy, but he isn't ever going to make my heart race like Kathleen Turner.

Have you never read the writings on the bathroom walls at rest stops and wondered, why would anyone choose to be this way? Have you never wondered why someone would choose to like boys over girls?

I think the real reason that the myth of people "choosing" to be gay continues is because of the alternative. If you are simply born gay, then someone being gay is God's will.

It's interesting that the Ten Commandments talk about not coveting thy neighbors wife, but not about coveting her brother. If we then look at our own society, which do we get more excited about now? Which does more damage to families? Hm-m-m?

[TheRogue]

WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness -- That to secure these Rights,... Declaration of Independence

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Tremendous words...but try to read a little deeper than just the word "Creator".

The authors of these words were great men for their time. They also believed (for the most part) in slavery of black Africans, believed that "Native Americans" were little better than animals, believed that the Middle East was full of "heathens and infidels", and believed that Orientals were uncouth animals. So, the phrase "all Men" really to them only applied to "all Anglo-Saxon Christian Men" .

I like to believe that we as a country have grown beyond this, to better fulfill the words as they should be taken.

And addressing prayer in schools specifically... I firmly support a few minutes of "personal time" where one can pray to your chosen God if you so desire. I believe a student should be allowed to say either version of the Pledge of Allegiance, based on your personal preference, and that it should be done before the start of morning classes each and every day. I believe that evolution should be taught in school as the only science-based history of life...to go down the road of the Old Testament, and force kids to learn it, belongs in church and home, not public schools. Ever noticed that the most vociferous supporters of prayer in public school and teaching the Old Testament history of life want it taught...but in THEIR way, not any other religion's way??

And I also believe in teaching that homosexuality is part of society, and that it is not a disease or even a choice.

Also believe that uniforms should be mandatory, and physical punishment in the form of a rap on the knuckles with a ruler, or, in very extreme cases, a whap on the backside with a paddle, is an effective and proven disciplinary technique.

TR

BTW....I'll get quite personal here.... I have a deep rooted faith in God...and a deep rooted distrust of organized religion....and specifically, a true hatred of the Catholic Church. I'll leave it at that.

[ 09-12-2003, 10:56 AM: Message edited by: TheRogue ]

[crabbait]

I think Silver Hilton got it right. If you think sexual preference is a choice ask yourself this:

When did you chose your sexual preference?

Has your sexual preference ever changed?

I remember in 7th grade I was slouched down in my desk when this cute girl sitting right in front of me skooched back in her desk until her backside was pressed against my knees. Then she looked back over her shoulder and smiled. So much for deciding sexual preference and I don't recall any long internal debate either!

Of course the bell rang two minutes later and there I sat, collecting my thoughts for a couple of minutes.

Physiological response not conscious decision.

[TheRogue]

Originally posted by crabbait:
I remember in 7th grade I was slouched down in my desk when this cute girl sitting right in front of me skooched back in her desk until her backside was pressed against my knees. Then she looked back over her shoulder and smiled. So much for deciding sexual preference and I don't recall any long internal debate either!

Of course the bell rang two minutes later and there I sat, collecting my thoughts for a couple of minutes.

Physiological response not conscious decision.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica"> [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

[Straydog]

Originally posted by crabbait:
I remember in 7th grade I was slouched down in my desk when this cute girl sitting right in front of me skooched back in her desk until her backside was pressed against my knees. Then she looked back over her shoulder and smiled. So much for deciding sexual preference and I don't recall any long internal debate either!

Of course the bell rang two minutes later and there I sat, collecting my thoughts for a couple of minutes.

Physiological response not conscious decision.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Silly, guy. Didn't you know that is why they invented Pee Chee folders? So you didn't have to be late for your next class but could walk down the hall with dignity!

[Straydog]

Originally posted by Killertraylor:
Parenting just keeps getting more and more important when your children can't get what they need from their school system. I applaud the many public school teachers (some of whom I had) who see the light and teach these subjects as they should be taught. I don't think it's right to generalize about public schools - there are stil some very good moral christian teachers in public schools who understand these issues and take education seriously. Our own HOGTIDE is one of them!

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Unfortunately the reverse is even more alarming and just as true.

More and more we see kids not getting what they need from their parents and therefore, schools become more and more important.

The case of the three losers in Merlin, one of which is the father of the girl that was abused, is an extreme yet becoming more common, example of why society has put more parenting responsibilty on schools.

[Silver Hilton]

[quote]Originally posted by pdxkevin:
[George Washington, at the request of the Congress which passed the Bill of Rights, proclaimed a day of

"Public prayer, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and single favors of Almighty God".

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Patrick Henry

It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">However, George Washington also said, "The Government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." Treaty of Tripoli, 1791.

Patrick Henry was a firebrand and rousing motivator at the time of the founding of this country. However, I don't think he was one of the deeper thinkers contributing to what we have today for a country.

George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin, who were more influential in defining our country, did not regard themselves as Christians, but as Deists. Deism is a belief which I find appealing. It holds that there is probably a god of some sort, but that it is unlikely that we are any special objects of affection for this god, given that we are just one small spot in a vast, vast universe. Deists value the thoughts of luminaries such as Moses, Christ, and Buddha as contributing to the wisdom of the world, but not directly deserving worship themselves. I find a little more humility and realism in this belief. The founding fathers thought so, too. I wish more people did.

[RvW]

If you are born a homosexual, or a heterosexual...what does "preference" really mean? Homosexuality cant be anything BUT a choice and is simply based on sexual pleasure rather than the obvious simple bodily function each of the two sexes where given to reproduce. Sex exsists to reproduce in my oppinion and though it is a very pleasurable experience, I have to ask one simple question, if it WASNT stimulating, would anyone be anything BUT heterosexual?

Sex topics in school shouldnt extend any further beyond information on reproduction in respect to anatomical function of an INDIVIDUAl......And simple information on STD's. IS it really an educators responsibility to advise children of thier choice of partners? Gimme a break, Neaderthals reproduced, Im sure this century's children will figure it out. It is simply appaling to think american schools find some need to play a role in a childs choice of methods to fulfill sexual desires, especially when the topic is of homosexuality which has absolutely nothing to do with the reproductive or procreation process ( all kids really need to learn at thier age in a school isnt it?)

As far as religion in schools, religion is a VALID topic of world history! Is there someone who is offended by the HISTORY of religion? What the heck is wrong with teaching "religion" in this respect? Do the radical groups or parents of certain secular families fear if a child is introduced to the history of a different religion than thier own they will defect from family or cultural traditon? TOO BAD! Children are individuals too and free to make thier own choices. I believe everyone is entitled to a fair amount of exposure to ALL faiths with regard to thier concepts and history thus allowing each person to make up thier OWN MIND what to believe and what not to believe. But this aspect of religion shouldnt be in school...history and concept SHOULD (and the right to worship, pray or ignore the possiblity of a spiritual entity) If someone is offended by my child bowing thier head and saying "god" I'll remind all who are, that they are not being forced to listen, participate, or agree with the chosen faith of my child, on the other hand, it is my childs right and he/she (in the words of Thomas Jefferson") ..will be held accountable only to god for his/her faith and worship without any law to infringe upon this right!

Rogue, though the forefathers of our great nation held some beliefs that seem quite incomprehensable today, these beliefs no longer have a place in society. "all men" in my oppinion is better defined as "all men who call themselves Americans" without any subtitles of prefered religion, opinions or OF other races, or a chioce to keep slaves. (etc etc).

[ 09-12-2003, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: Row Vs. Wade ]

[Silver Hilton]

Killer, here's a link to some studies that you may find interesting: studies

A quote:

Explicit evidence for a genetic link was obtained by studying the X chromosome DNA of 40 pairs of gay brothers. The scientists used a technique called linkage mapping to search for patterns of similarity in the genetic information of related individuals. Thirty-three of the gay sibling pairs had coinherited genetic markers in the same chromosome region called Xq28, suggesting that 65 percent of the families studied were transmitting a gene for homosexual orientation.

"The statistical significance of the results was better than 99 percent, which means that the possibility of obtaining our findings by chance is extremely unlikely," said Hamer. However, he noted that replication on an independent population of families will be necessary to confirm the results.

The scientists do not know why 7 of the 40 pairs of gay brothers did not coinherit the Xq28 genetic marker. Hamer postulated that these gay men may have inherited other genes that are associated with homosexuality, or they might have been influenced by environmental factors or life experiences.

"Given the intricacies of human behavior, it is not surprising that a single genetic locus [region] fails to account for all of the variation seen in the study group," said Hamer. "What is remarkable is that we can account for at least some of the inherited variability with a fair degree of statistical confidence."


I'm not gay, my family members are not gay (that I know of) and I don't have gay kids, again that I know of. I don't have any 'gay agenda' here. I simply like to see our social policies based on facts, and it pains me to see prejudice and cruelty in our society. It bothers me deeply that many who hold themselves up as moral leaders in our society cannot be troubled to examine data such as this and ask themselves what cruelty they are visiting upon our world in the name of their unexamined religious beliefs.

[TheRogue]

I agree, religion is a very valid topic. After all, organized religion was at the heart of most of the best....and the worst....things that happened in recorded history. However, I do not agree that a teacher has the right to PROMOTE any religion over another, such as discussing The Crusades in class, and not talking about the horrible damage they caused to the Middle East and relationships between Islam and Christianity. Just an example, but I hope you get my drift.

And, yes, the scientific facts of reproduction, and the numerous ways to control unwanted pregnancy and STD's, with an influence on ABSTINENCE, is what should be taught in schools. NOT "sex is bad because the Pope says so", or "the Bible tells us this".

TR

PS&gt;.....like to commend everyone on keeping it civil in a very, very emotional topic.

[Straydog]

R v W,

I don't think anyone is arguing against the teaching of 'religion' in schools. The original post specified 'Christianity'.

As one facet of religion, the history of Christianity should certainly be taught, however not 'promoted'.

BTW, promotion, although still not defined by the original poster, is much different than education in my mind.

The same holds true for sexuality. Again, at an age appropriate time, it should be taught, in my opinion. Of course, I don't believe homosexuality is a choice, either.

[Killertraylor]

Lost Sailer - I don't think anyone here ever said we didn't like homosexuals or that they were any different socially from the rest of us. For you to imply otherwise is irresponsible. Whether it's a choice or not doesn't have anything to do with the way I feel about homosexuals as people.

[DanS]

Sex exsists to reproduce in my oppinion

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Really?

There are even chimps who do it for no other reason than pleasure.

How many kids do you have? How many times have you had sex? So do you really believe what you just wrote?

[DanS]

As far as homosexuality being a gene thing..when the self assuring scientists who came up with this garb remove a gene from a man such as , say, Burt Reynolds and he announces his homosexuality...I'll buy it.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Would an atomic bomb have to fall on your house before you'd believe massive amounts of energy are released by splitting an atom, too?

[Ragnar]

O.K. people. Usually I keep my opinions to myself and will continue to do so. I have something along these lines for you to consider.
***Please note*** -Disclaimer-
What is going to be written here is meant to be funny and non-inflammitory. I personally don't care to come over here, but today was just one of those days.....You probably won't find me over here much if ever again. I'd rather be talking about fishing quite frankly. So, add your two cents if you like, but you'll get know response from me if your looking for satisfaction. Once again. Nothing personal.

Ready? O.K.! Here goes........
A politician was on T.V. recently talking about homosexuality and how it was tearing apart the moral fabric of our Great Country. A gay man was watching this and said to his friends..."Since when does a straight white man know diddly sqwat about fabric Honey?!"
Funny thing is... This was told to me by a gay man.
Something to think about... Hey! I thought it was funny anyways. Hope you did too.
Ragnar out.

[Silver Hilton]

Killer,

First, it sounds like you're being thoughtful about the question, and I commend you for that.

I want to respond to the comment about Leviticus, because it comes up so much in these discussions. I think most would agree that these sections of the Bible describe laws and rules around practices that are archaic and not relevant to todays society. I think we'd want to be careful about how much we say that Leviticus or other sections of the bible should govern our life. Women are described as being little more than pretty slaves, property to be disposed of according to these rules. Slavery is clearly an important topic, with the pricing and treatment of slaves being one of the topics discussed at length.

The punishments are also not of modern times, with stoning, beheading, and amputations high on the list.

Some of the approved things aren't great either. For example, while we're not supposed to eat clams, scallops or lobster, we are allowed any kind of locust, katydid, cricket or grasshopper. (Leviticus 11:22-23)" Yumm. :smile:

Chapter 27 of Leviticus, among other things, sets the fair price for slaves. This implies that the Old Testament approves of slavery. I doubt any of us agree today that slavery of any kind is moral.

Chapter 19, verse 27 "Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip the edges of your beard..." How many of us could pass this test?

Chapter 20, verse 9 "If anyone curses his father or his mother, he must be put to death." School clothing expenditures would take a sharp drop, and enrollment at high schools would drop quickly. :smile:

Verse 10 "If a man commits adultery with another mans wife, - wife the wife of a neighbor - both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death." Boy, that would spice up the soap operas.

And of course, the verse you cite, reads in full "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them has done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their heads."

So..., if we're really going to say that the Old Testament should drive our thinking on how to deal with gays (or adulterers), and if one of your loved ones were to turn out to be gay, what you're saying is that you believe your loved one should be put to death, if it were to come to pass that they were gay. I doubt many of us would agree to that.

If we don't think that the prescriptions of the Old Testament are proper in this section, if the Old Testament is flawed in this section, with regards to the death penalty for gays, might it be flawed as to gays being detestable?

[ 09-12-2003, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: Silver Hilton ]

[Killertraylor]

Thanks, Silver Hilton - that was very well stated and explained. I really appreciate your informed opinion in this topic - it's definitely got me thinking!

I certainly don't think homosexuals are bad people, I see them as no different than you or I - I'm just intrigued by the biology of it in light of the Biblical teachings I've received. I've had time to read some of the articles and do some searches and although I came across some articles by homosexuals who claim it is a choice, there were many more articles which claim that it's a genetic trait.

There were also articles that claimed the whole issue is politically driven and there is simply a lot more money being put toward the "liberal" side (proving it's genetic) as opposed to the conservative christian view that it's a choice. Because I'm on the conservative side politically, I acknowledge that I'm probably biased to believe it's a choice - but like I said, I really appreciate your informed and well explained opinion. Thanks for taking the time to explain it without being argumentative about it.

[Abalone]

Originally posted by Jetsledder:
You are not allowed to promote christianity in schools. But it is ok to promote homosexuality, and evolution in schools. Our society has lost any sense of anything that is moral. Our elected leaders lie, and missuse the position of authority that they are intrusted with. Our society has gone to showing compassion for criminals and less for the victim.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Well you aren't allowed to promote Islam in schools either are you. Juddism, Hindu, Peagan etc. etc.

Think about it ! Religious FREEDOM ! You are FREE to practice any religion you want.
Isn't that enough of a blessing. In some countries they will murder you for not towing the line.

I am not complaining.

[STGRule]

My misunderstanding on the inheritability of homosexuality. I guess it was because of the lack of a specific gene. I understood it to be a mix that had to exist and therefore it wasn’t specific. I don’t know why I thought that, as I do understand that very few traits are the result of a single gene. I was being too simplistic.
History as it pertains to religion is important. It explains why people did what they did. I remember learning about a number of religions that way. I have no reason to think it is different now. No one religion was promoted over another.

[Killertraylor]

It's interesting that the Ten Commandments talk about not coveting thy neighbors wife, but not about coveting her brother

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">What about Leviticus 18:22: Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Thanks for the educational reples (with the usual exception of DanS). I'm open minded on this issue as I have a hard time believing a homosexual would actually choose that lifestyle, but I've always believed that the Bible stands for the proposition that it's a choice. I'll read the articles when I have time and make up my own mind - I think there are valid points on both sides of this topic.

[lost_sailor]

Does anyone recall "choosing" their sexual preference?

I didn't think so.

How can you believe that gay people make a choice, and straight people don't?

Maybe you need to get to know some people of the homosexual persuasion! They're just people, surprise.

[RvW]

Stray. I get your point, mine are in support of educating children to any religion. Christianity is being attacked because none others exsist (commonly and openly) to condemn in schools. I guess what I am trying to say is: theres some legitimacy to removing religion from the classroom if that religion is focused on one and only one concept [christianity] but rather than ditch it too, why not diversify? would teching Christian history, concepts, or even methods of worship be under the gun if say Juddaism etc were also in the curriculum? I doubt it.

I understand the more profound issue is the acts of certain religious groups in the schools environment...EI praying before a game...the pledge of allegance ["...under god..."] etc. So Ill add my comment on that as well...


"...American people declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."


As far as homosexuality being a gene thing..when the self assuring scientists who came up with this garb remove a gene from a man such as , say, Burt Reynolds and he announces his homosexuality...I'll buy it.

[ 09-12-2003, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: Row Vs. Wade ]