Free public education?

Straydog · 09-08-2003, 06:24 AM

As you read this, if you read this, ask yourself who paid for your education experience and how has it served you?

Who paid your way??

GSA,

While your investigating the details of the Three Rivers School Dist. labor expenses, classroom ratios and teacher/administrator ratios for the last 30 years, you might also note what the costs to families for the full educational package was in comparison over the last 30 years as well.

Please let us know what you learn. :smile:

OceanBlue · 09-08-2003, 06:43 AM

I couldn't even finish the article.

My son also goes to Century and thank goodness he's not involved in extra-curriculars... yet. His fees were still $107. My daughter is in middle school and for the first time, we paid fees. $27 - Towel fee? Why on earth don't the kids just bring their own towels? They bring their own clothes.

Oh, and let's not forget the school supplies which this year included a calculator for my son that runs $125 - $140 depending on where you shop.

On top of that, I'm required to purchase a music book for my daughter's band class and clothes appropriate for concerts (for which participation is a part of the grade. True, band is an elective, but electives are required.

The article references "cash-strapped districts" - Funny, where does all that money go that Intel and Nike (and their employees) donate to the schools? Does anybody have a clue how much that is? Folks complain about corporations getting huge tax breaks, but no one seems to understand that many of these corporations give millions directly to the schools each year. On top of that there are matching $$ (for employee volunteerism in the schools) and grants (equipment for the classrooms).

"Intel is donating $200,000 in cash, computers and related equipment to outfit an engineering and technology academy at the new Liberty High School [Hillsboro], scheduled to open this fall."

"During 2002, Intel made $5.76 million in cash and equipment donations to Oregon education programs, with $3.83 million of that going to K-12 schools. In addition, Intel OR employees donated $870,000 to Oregon schools, which Intel matched with an additional $1.35 million . Thousands of Intel OR employees also stepped up to volunteer in local schools."

"...goal of collecting 5,500 new school supplies and they are at 8,080 and counting!" (employee donations in Oregon)

"On Wednesday, May 21,[2003] an Intel 'Prize Patrol' and members of the Hillsboro Schools Foundation made surprise visits to award Innovative Education grants to Jackson Elementary School and the soon-to-be opened Liberty High School. The two schools will receive a total of $39,000 to fund computers, curricula, science equipment and software."

And on and on and on....

[ 09-08-2003, 07:55 AM: Message edited by: OceanBlue ]

lost_sailor · 09-08-2003, 06:52 AM

I believe the taxpayers paid my way. Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, and Dad only had one job, and Mom didn't have to have a job except "Mom".

I wrote a check for $413 to start my son's sophomore year in high school. Who knows, by the time the nickel and dime-ing is through :whazzup:

Straydog · 09-08-2003, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by OceanBlue:

The article references "cash-strapped districts" - Funny, where does all that money go that Intel and Nike (and their employees) donate to the schools? Does anybody have a clue how much that is? Folks complain about corporations getting huge tax breaks, but no one seems to understand that many of these corporations give millions directly to the schools each year. On top of that there are matching $$ (for employee volunteerism in the schools) and grants (equipment for the classrooms).

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Again folks, p l e a s e remember, the very vast majority of these donations go to site specific schools. When we talk about these things going to "the schools", too many people assume it is all schools and it is not! I wish we had an Intel down here supporting our schools like it appears you folks do.

Generalities and blanket statements make our missions much more difficult in our attempt to inform people as to the realities of public education.

OceanBlue · 09-08-2003, 07:03 AM

Stray - my comment is specific to Hillsboro being mentioned in the article and how they're so strapped for cash... when exactly what you're saying is true - Hillsboro is the beneficiary of much of the funding Intel is providing. How is it, exactly, that they are so "cash-strapped?"

Straydog · 09-08-2003, 07:17 AM

Excellent question Ocean Blue.

Your school district can provide you with a copy of their budget and you can find out where the money goes.

I have a friend that is on a Site Council at a Middle School in the Bethany area. He has described a "neighborhood school within a school" system they have and while I think it is a great idea for a big school, the way he described it to me it sounds like it would cost a ton as each "neighborhood" has it's own administraters, councilors, sp. ed. teachers, etc. etc.

More evidence that all schools are NOT created equal.

PS. If you do check out the budget for you area's district, pay a lot of attention to what is being paid out for employee insurance and the PER's program. Both of those areas are killing us down here. Oh, early retirment benefits are hurting us as well. Just a couple of hot buttons down here that may apply up there as well.

[ 09-08-2003, 08:21 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

Cool Texan · 09-08-2003, 09:13 AM

OB, sounds like a lot of that Intel money goes to the state for all schools in Oregon (unless I misinterpreted your post). If that is the case, I wonder if that money simply ends up going into the General Fund, where it could be spent on things other than the schools.

Hopefully that is not the case, as Intel provide an outstanding opportunity to help aleviate budget crunches in schools.

One of our neighbors is a school teacher...and late in the school year last year his boss came in and gave him one ream of paper and said that was it for the rest of the year. As a result, he spends some of his own money to buy things for his classroom. Its pretty sad.

The Oregonian article was interesting. Not having a kid in school, I was a bit, but not completely, surprised to hear about the nickel and diming of all those "fees". Good personal financial planning can help families when those expenses come in though. I just wonder if the problems will be fixed by the time Lil-Texas gets to school, or if he/she will be costing us a fortune in high school fees. :smile:

Keeper · 09-08-2003, 01:23 PM

Maybe it helps pay for that big district office in Dawson Creek?

Maybe it helps pay the salary of the superintendent, his assistant, the assistant's assistant and so on?

Sure would be nice to get an independent auditor for all of the school districts to find out where that money really goes and then find someone with the balls to print the truth.

My son is a junior at Tualatin HS and we do have a "one time refundable" book deposit fee of $50.

Thumper · 09-08-2003, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Straydog:
As you read this, if you read this, ask yourself who paid for your education experience and how has it served you?

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">My parents (and I) paid for mine. 16 years of Catholic schools. And it has served me just fine. Today that same fine education costs about $5,000 per year (Central Catholic, for example).

The public schools are a joke.

Straydog · 09-08-2003, 08:29 PM

Thumper,

Given you spent 16 years in a Catholic school, on what experience do you base your opinion that public schools are a joke?

How many have you been in in the last 10 years and how much time did you spend in them in order to form this opinion?

Thumper · 09-09-2003, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Straydog:
Thumper,

Given you spent 16 years in a Catholic school, on what experience do you base your opinion that public schools are a joke?

How many have you been in in the last 10 years and how much time did you spend in them in order to form this opinion?

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">The woman in my life has 22 years in the system. She fully agrees, as do many of her colleagues. It is no secret. Sad.

Straydog · 09-09-2003, 04:42 AM

HHHmmm, I see. Based on her experience the entire system of public education is a joke.

So why does she stay with it? Dosen't it bother her to be part of the joke and collect our tax dollars while living it?

Has she felt it a joke for her entire 22 years of benefiting from said system or is this a new realization?

I can only assume she has a slightly different value system than yourself, based on the many posts of yours I have read. I can't imagine a good, moral conservative would take advantage of a taxpayer based payroll system and the benefits that come from that while telling the man in her life the complete system was a joke and she was not able to provide what she is getting paid for, educating our kids. :whazzup:

[ 09-09-2003, 05:49 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

Thumper · 09-09-2003, 05:00 AM

Easy there, Straydog. Nothing personal. Remember, you asked....

Just giving you my opinion, which is that if they ever pass a voucher system, perhaps competition will force some changes in the way our public schools are operated. In the meantime we will continue to throw money in huge piles at the problems while the private schools produce educated kids at half, that's right, HALF the cost per pupil.

Do you disagree that the education received in the private schools is vastly superior to that received in the public schools? If you agree, what do you believe are the reasons?

Straydog · 09-09-2003, 05:48 AM

Jack,

I don't mean to be offensive but think it is a legitimate question. Dosen't it seem odd that someone would perpetuate what they lable a joke while getting paid with tax dollars to do so?
You made it personal by bringing the little woman into it, I merely asked a question that begs an answer.

As for your question, I think there are private schools that provide a superior product although not all.

In my opinion there are lots of reasons but most have to do with being able to be much more selective of their clientel and free from many of the government regulations that public education must endure.

Are private schools required to provide transportation to anyone more than a mile away? No. Are they required to teach all kids, regardless of physical and mental disabilities? No. Are they required to take kids into their schools even if the school is not big enough to accomodate any more kids? No. If a kid is a discipline problem and they opt to remove them from the school, are they required to then offer two alternatives for that kid to get his education? No. Are they required to teach a kid to pass a barage of government tests in order to graduate? No. Are they required to provide breakfast and lunch for poor kids? Not a fair question, poor kids can't afford private school, my bad. Are teachers required to have certain levels of education in a given field, be certified and maintain those levels through continuing education? I don't believe so. Can public schools require certain parental involvment, personal and financial for their schools as private schools can? No.

I am sure there are more yet but the point is, comparing public schools to private schools is very much like comparing the proverbial apple to the orange......

Thumper · 09-09-2003, 06:48 AM

I guess those are reasons for some additional costs, but hardly justify double the cost. But that is just one person's opinion.

Straydog · 09-09-2003, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thumper:
I guess those are reasons for some additional costs, but hardly justify double the cost. But that is just one person's opinion.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">.....And based on the costs of but one private school, from the information you have provided. I am also wondering if the 5k figure is what it actually costs or is it possilbe that is the part your parents paid and the church paid some of the costs as well, making the overall costs more than the 5k?

I don't know, just wondering.

[ 09-09-2003, 08:10 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

Thumper · 09-09-2003, 07:07 AM

Actually Straydog it is based on the costs of several private schools, including elementary, middle and high schools. They all seem to average about $5,000 per student, including all forms of support and student fees, but excluding (of course) taxpayer contributions.

An interesting tidbit --- My grandaughter just graduated from a church-run private high school of about 200 students. In the last 5 years, every single graduate has attended college. Every one. That speaks volumes about quality of education to me.

But again, SD, this is not a personal attack. Just some sad commentary on the state of our public schools.

Straydog · 09-09-2003, 07:13 AM

Hey, no problem Jack.

Your example also points out the benefit of small schools, the value of more personal attention and the fact that those that can afford private school are more likely be able to afford college as well as more likely motivated to get their kids into college.

My guess is few of those 200 kids come from families where "dad" is missing in action and mom is turning tricks downtown to keep mac and cheese on the table at night.

Again, I see it as a big apples and oranges comparison.

Our Supt. shared a story recently. He was getting burnt and bummed dealing with the uncertainty and shotcomings of our finances so he decided to try to reconnect with his original motivation for entering the education arena. He had a teacher find him a kid that, in this teachers opinion had overcome the biggest obstacles and was still a succesful student and the Supt. met with and talked with this kid.

He was a 10 year old 5th grader. He was a child in a single parent household. He had been enrolled in 10 different schools in his education carreer as his mother was running from an abusive ex husband. The good news was she was done running and perhaps the kid will get some much needed stability in his life. Not without a big cost though. The reason they are no longer running is that "dad" had kidnapped his twin siblings and murdered them. Dad was caught and put away.

Realizing this is an extreme case but also realizing there are many, many, many other less dramatic horror stories out there, do you think it fair to compare the costs and challenges of educating this kid to those of a kid from a two parent family that has the money and motivation to enroll thier kid in a private school?

[ 09-09-2003, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

freespool · 09-09-2003, 07:19 AM

Here's an issue that many may not know much about. Public schools are required to educate students with physical and mental disabilities. And this means cases of severe retardation and debilitating diseases. This in itself takes a huge amount of money to occur. An example of this took place in Gold Beach. The child was bed ridden and required the attention of a full time nurse. The child,on a gurny, with a nurse, attended school. Other examples are of parents sending retarded childern to school to learn to dress and feed themselves. Is this what our public schools are there for? Or should the Feds step up and take care of these severe cases?

[ 09-09-2003, 09:40 AM: Message edited by: freespool ]

Straydog · 09-09-2003, 07:26 AM

Good example Freespool.

Shortly after becoming a board member I had a special ed aide approach me and tell me she may have to quit. She is great with these kids and I asked her why she was considering quitting.
She told me that one little girl she had been working with for several years was now big enough that she felt she couldn't handle the little girl. She told me that the girl is now tall enough that when she head butts this aide, she can hit her in the face and could harm her. Yet, the state and fed. government says we must educate this child and she must show as much progress as my daughter who is a TAG student....

Further, while this is another extreme case, the increase of these cases has been growing right along with the increase in substance abuse and addictions as well as the break down of the family unit, one reason our costs go up year after year after year.........

[ 09-09-2003, 08:28 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

WaterDog · 09-09-2003, 07:36 AM

While I try to stay out of these threads, I was going to point out what freespool did.

It's easy to claim greatness when you can pick and choose who your students are.

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