No Touch Policy!?

[OceanBlue]

My daughter tells me that her middle school has instituted a "No Touch Policy."

When I inquired about this, she explained that the students may not touch eachother. No high-fives, no pats on the back, no holding hands... no touching of any kind, except they ARE allowed to hug.

Okay, so what's up with this? Apparently it is intended to curb violence. High-fives can get out of control, pats on the back can be too hard and mistaken for hitting, etc.

So, I'm wondering what your thoughts are on this?

Being that we're social animals and touch is such an important part of social behavior, personally, I think it is wrong to remove this from our children's social development. Learning to touch appropriately is important. Learning NOT to touch at all is just plain wrong IMHO.

Why not correct inappropriate behavior instead?

[lost_sailor]

Fear of litigation.

What do you call 500 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?

[OceanBlue]

LS - A good start?

[TheRogue]

A very small, but very good start....

TR

[2LEYS]

Absolutelly rediculous and ignorant.

[OceanBlue]

2Leys - What? The no touch policy or the lawyer joke? :grin:

[Silver Hilton]

Yeah, this is a little out of control. My son's school has a no-running policy on the playground. Yup, no running. This is an elementary school.

[Pitch Pocket]

What's black and tan and looks good on a lawyer?


A doberman

[ 09-04-2003, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: Pitch Pocket ]

[lost_sailor]

"A good start" is of course the correct answer.

And God forbid they get caught with Tylenol or ... Midol! ZERO TOLERANCE!

You can go to the school board and try to be a "squeakier wheel" than the loonies - good luck!

[ 09-04-2003, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: lost_sailor ]

[Straydog]

Goes too far in my mind.

My first stop would be a visit with the Principal. Next stop would be a visit with my school board representative.

You folks do not need to simply sit back and watch our values be taken away from us. Good sense is clearly lacking. (common sense is sometimes not very good while good sense is certainly not very common!)

Do you want our limited education resources being used to teach or to have teachers be distracted acting as "touch police".

Do what you can do but realize you are dealing with some folks, such as one that posts here at times, that will go berserk and threaten to beat up teachers, kids and administrators if their daughter is touched inapproprately. The school seems to be over reacting to the over reactors, in my mind. You must not let them get away with this unnopposed....

[ 09-04-2003, 09:12 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[Keeper]

I kind of wonder if that no touching was implemented to curb "making out" in the hallways [img]graemlins/hearton.gif[/img] I know that has been an issue at the HS level.

[DanS]

Another "zero tolerance" policy gone bad. I've come to the conclusion that "zero tolerance" translates to "zero common sense".

[Silver Hilton]

I agree. I am sick of zero tolerance for this, that, and the other thing. What these policies tell me is that the management has gotten too scared or lazy to use common sense, think through situations, and make the call. Sadly, this is often because some nutbar lawsuit-happy parent has gone off on the school for some stupid thing.

When people are getting kicked out for a midol, tylenol, or 3 inch toy pistol, common sense has departed the building.

[OceanBlue]

Keeper - here's the moronic thing, they DO allow hugging, but not holding hands, high-fives or pats on the back or any other kind of touching... Only hugging is allowed.

I'm of a mind to disallow hugging if there's any kind of touch prohibition. THAT I could understand. (not necessarily agree with or like, but understand)

[Chrome Bumper]

Another fine example of your tax dollar at work. Touching is a good thing and it takes practice.

[Jennie@ifish]

...and some people think ifish takes the rules too far!

Funny, this did sort of remind me of the limits of where you can go in trying to handle a community.

OK, from now on, no discussions on ifish. They can lead bad places. :smile:

That's rediculous!

Jen

[Thumper]

Conservatives Liberals

We agree!!! Can't you just feel the love! ... Oops ... No touching.

[ 09-04-2003, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: Thumper ]

[OceanBlue]

Thumper - Remember, hugging is okay. Just don't give me a high-five and we won't get detention.

Jennie: Where is that group hug smilie anyway?

[wannacatchem]

Stray

I am one of those that would go beserk if one of my girls was touched inappropriately by anybody....I suspect you would, too. However, if a teacher were to touch my girls in an educational or disciplinary manner, thats what they get paid to do. As far as high fives, backslaps, buttsmacks, et., I'd honestly like to see them try to enforce it. If it ever comes to my kids school, I'll encourage them to high five everybody they see and if they get busted, off to court we go. I think a blanket no touch policy (except hugs :whazzup: )is a little more than ridiculous

[OceanBlue]

See, this is where I have a problem. The "no touch" policy isn't instituted to curb sexual misconduct (which admittedly is somewhat "gray"). If they were instituting it to curb problems with harrassment, I could maybe understand (in corporate america, we receive training ont this - unfortunately, touch is limited to the arm below the elbow, or it could be misconstrued...)

But this is something entirely different. Very bizarre in my mind.

[clearview2u]

I would much rather a guy give my daughter a high five instead of a hug. But Heather would be in trouble all the time she is pretty touchy feely.

[TundraIII]

Geez...a school where no child is allowed to run, and the kids walking around giving eachother hugs instead of shaking hands or touching arms or patting eachother on the back? The visual is kinda creepy :shocked:

[OceanBlue]

Other opinions? Please? Feel free to present another side to this issue... I'm really trying to understand this thing.

Okay, same opinions? Let's get some more... I'm planning on taking this to the school... and the school board if necessary. I'd like some more input, please.

Thanks!

[GutshotApe]

I went to public school in Longview WA and back then there were no formal policies against student touching...just common sense rules...but I think I witnessed the start of a policy banning male teachers from delivering corporal punishment to girl students.

A family of Latvian refugees came to town in the late '50s and the girl who was my age was placed in my homeroom class. One day the teacher became enraged because she failed to respond appropriately to class directions (she didn't understand English very good at first) so ol' tough guy Mr. Beaston whacked her hard on the back of the knuckles with an 18" wooden ruler. The girl, not accustomed to such behavior, burst into tears, ran out of the classroom, out of the school, and went home. Shortly, she returned with her father...pointed out the man who hit her...whereupon her dad dragged MrBeaston out into the hallway by the neck and proceeded to kick his butt good. The cops came and hauled off the dad, the ambulance came and hauled off Mr.Beaston (not hurt bad, just bloodied), and the principal had to take over the class for a few days while Mr.B's shiners subsided.

That was the last time any Longview school teacher struck a female student, that I heard of.

[Cool Texan]

OB, I think its an over-reaction. Just another case of being overly PC. [img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img]

[Artwo]

My daughter is starting the third grade and she has a very outgoing personality. She's a very huggy, touchy, happy girl. She knows the difference between appropriate and inappropriate touching and has never had a problem with others (teachers or students). A rule like this would really alter her personality in a direction I feel that would be destructive. She is vey well known by her teachers and peers for her personality and this would totally change her in a way that I would not like. If I were you I would challege this rule with the school board on the grounds that it infringes on your daughters rights to be herself while at school.

JK

PS - And the rule about no running on the playground is absolutely absurd. What do they want the kids to do during recess, just sit down and shut-up..........give me a break it's an elementay school for god sakes.

[Old Coot]

Zero-tolerance policies must be wonderful things to work under. As an administrator you don't run the risk of criticism. Common sense doesn't enter into the situation, situational analysis doesn't enter into the equation. You just smugly make the decision, as Click and Clack would say, unencumbered by the thought process. Then you point to a book and say, "It's the rule."

Think what it teaches the students, too. Everything is black and white. They don't have to learn critical thinking, or any thinking for that matter. Just blind unquestioning adherence to regulation. Little robots growing up to run the country - or to blindly follow those who run the country.

In my son's last school, fighting was zero-tolerance, including self-defense. If the local thug assaulted a student he was expected to just take it until an adult intervened. This trained the students for later life. Never take action yourself, turn to a government employee to solve all of your problems.

What a crock the schools have become.

[ampersat]

just another outcropping from an increasingly litigous society.

the problems always involve just a handful of people. however, the solution always involves curbing everyone. instead of dealing directly with the few who are causing problems, a new, stricter policy is instituted. i see it all the time in corporate america and our society in general.

say it with me folks: the world of the future will be padded.

[Bait O' Eggs]

My kid was in Kindergarden last year and the teacher gave the kids hug. :smile: Not sure what the new teacher will be doing this year. My wife was a middle school teacher before she became a momma and they were always instructed to be very careful due to the kids age.

I think the kids are in school and that is where they should be taught several things along with the R's. They should be taught what appropriate touching is. No touching except hugs is contradictory and silly. I am anti homeschool because learning how to get along with other kids, working in a group, etc... are all part of learning.

You are getting a bum deal and should address it with what ever spineless administrator decided their life would be easier if they only had to deal with loving kids. High fives, pats on the back are fine for students.

[skein]

Have you read this? Seems to tie in pretty closely with what you're saying.

http://www.ifish.net/ubb/ultimatebb....;f=19;t=000354

And to think, Mr Fisherman and I exchange high-5 's when we got back through the slot at Depoe Bay today. Glad Dano wasn't there to catch it on film. :grin:

Skein

[1pump]

A big part of a child's development is accountability and learning to establish (and respect) boundaries. How are they supposed to learn these life skills under ridiculous policies like this? :whazzup: [img]graemlins/eek13.gif[/img]

[pdxkevin]

Does this remind anyone of the "I'm not touching you" game or torture (depending on which end of the finger you were on)?

Kids live to bend the rules.

[ 09-05-2003, 05:26 AM: Message edited by: pdxkevin ]

[deschutes2]

Where is our world headed? Here's the equation and maybe the answer: (the following numerical values are fictious but used to illustrate where the problem lies)

The school district has a budgetof $10,000. One day, Johnny Three Teeth decides not to do his homework and is told to go sit in the common area by the teacher and wait until the rest of the class grades said assignment. The teacher says that after we are done grading I will come out and discuss with you why you were sent out of the classroom.

After the grading is finished and the other kids are quietly reading, the teacher goes out and tells Johnny how it is important to do their homework in order to learn. How if you do you homework, you can go on to learn more complicated things and the sense of accomplishment you get from completing your assignments. The teacher then asks Johnny if they understand why it is important and Johnny says yes and is allowed to go back into the classroom.

After school, Johnny goes home and waits for his parents to get home from work while sitting in front of the t.v. for 2 hrs watching Ren and Stimpy. Finally, mom comes home with Mcdonalds and asks Johnny how school went today. Johnny goes on to tell mom how the teacher made him sit outside of the classroom today and how it made him sad. Mom is furious! Mom rants and raves in front of Johnny that that school is no good, they don't teach you anything and are a waste of money. Mom tells Johnny to relax and that he can stay up an extra hour tonight and watch whatever he wants, Johnny chooses MTV and happily sits in front of the t.v. eating his Mcdonalds until he falls asleep at 1 a.m.

The next day, mom goes to the principal and complains about the teacher and threatens to sue the district over the emotional pain they have caused her son. The principal schedules a meeting with the mom and teacher to see if they can come to a solution. After explaining how Johnny is not completing his assignments and is falling further behind the rest of the class, the teacher offers some solutions to mom as to how to get Johnny interested in school. Mom will have nothing of it and says that she intends to sue the school for $10,500 and that she will insist that the teacher lose their job.

The principal, noting how the school district will go bankrupt and how the teacher needs their job, bows to the parent and Johnny is allowed back into the class to not participate, to not do his homework. Message to Johnny: schools are worthless. No accountability. You can go thru life eating Mcdonalds and watching MTV and if anyone gives you any **** about it, threaten to sue. Message to school district and teachers: despite having to be teachers, you have to be parents, couselors and have to bow to parents in order to survive or face litigation.

By the way, despite this everyday type of situation in our state, my wife still loves to teach. Go figure!

[ 09-05-2003, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: deschutes2 ]

[Straydog]

Well put Deschutes.

I might add one thing............ the state says we must educate young Three Teeth and that if he continues to to disrupt class to the point of being expelled, the state then says we must offer him two alternatives. Either an alternative school setting or an in home tutor.

And, unfortunately, the young Three Teeth's and their dysfunctional family's are becoming more and more prevelant each year.

Further, GW Bush says if young Three Teeth is not educated to the same standard as his gifted peers from supportive family atmospheres, the school has failed and risks losing monetary support as a consequence..

Yet another reason our schools cost so much to run.

[OceanBlue]

Deschutes - I completely agree with what you're saying about accountability and family values.

I'm sure I'm not the only parent that realizes there is a "bigger picture" when my child tells me tales of woe about teachers or why their grades are poor. I'm sure I'm not the only parent who insists that their child examine their responsibility in everything that "happens to" them. [img]graemlins/icon_argue.gif[/img] And how they could have affected the outcome positively. I'm sure I'm not the only parent who does not openly state in front of my children any dismay I might have about the school system, the school itself or individual teachers/administrators.

But, I'm sure feeling in the minority lately.

What can we do to turn this around? It isn't just schools, it is society in general. It's so sad! :depressed:

Deschutes - I applaud your wife. Please give her a hug from me and mine. She has one of the toughest jobs in the world.

[CATCH AND EAT]

We as babies and children grow by being touched, held, and a pat on the back or head. To bad there are so many perverts out there that take advantage of kids and abuse them. Ruined it for everyone.

This no touch rule is insane. No hand holding? but you can hug? Hummmm.... I'd be hugging the girls all recess. Much better than hand holding anyways. :grin: No high fives? Guess you just have to hug after a basket is made, touchdown scored or you pass your final exam.

[deschutes2]

Here's a funny story from the first week of school. My wife's principal is called yesterday by the mother of one of her kids who states "I don't think Mrs. Barber likes my daughter and I think she should be moved into another classroom." Principal: "Why don't you think Mrs. Barber likes your daughter?" Mother: "My daughter said that Mrs. Barber has been getting on her about not paying attention and listening to her lessons." "She says that she is trying really hard but isn't being given a chance." Principal: "Mrs. Barber is a very good teacher and I have a hard time believing that Mrs. Barber would be singling her out, why do you think your daughter is having such a hard time paying attention and listening to Mrs. Barber." Mother: "My daughter has had 10 surgeries in the past year on her ears and estachion tubes and is hard of hearing." Principal: "Did you mention that on her health form you filled out?" Mother: "No" Principal: "Did you tell Mrs. Barber about this?" Mother: "Nope" Principal: "Why not?" Mother: "I didn't think it was important"......

Epilogue: Student was moved to the front of the classroom and had a very good friday.

Go figure!