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Old 08-18-2009, 11:35 AM   #1
grnhorn
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Default making downhill archery shots

This is only my second season with a bow, never had a shot last year. I hunt steep country and the last couple of times I've shot at Sylvan it seems like my shot is hitting lower than it would if it were level ground. At 30 +/- yds (ranged with angle adjust) my arrow would be around 4" low.

Was I imagining things or making wacky shots? Where I hunt it could be quite a bit steeper than anything at Sylvan so I want to master this. Do others adjust their aim up (especially considering the trajectory).

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Old 08-18-2009, 11:41 AM   #2
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Default Re: making downhill archery shots

i shoot the same and do not adjust anything as long as i know the true range. 30 yards is 30 yards up hill down hill or flat (again true range not line of site) sorry not much help.
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Old 08-18-2009, 11:50 AM   #3
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Default Re: making downhill archery shots

Like 225 said, 30 yards is a 30 yard shot. You may not be bending at the waist........

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Old 08-18-2009, 11:53 AM   #4
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Default Re: making downhill archery shots

If you are using the angle adjust thinga majig then I would say it might be off. If the animal is truly 30 yards away from you then same same.

remember though...he has to be that far away from you like you were standing on flat ground. I have shot elk @ 50 yrds with my 20 yrd pin in the really steep stuff.
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Old 08-18-2009, 11:58 AM   #5
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Default Re: making downhill archery shots

You cut yardage on both up and down hill shots.

The 70 yarder downhill next to the fence at Cascadian is a 4 yard cut.
The 32 uphill from the road is almost the same cut.

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Old 08-18-2009, 11:58 AM   #6
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Default Re: making downhill archery shots

Thanks guys. That's what I thought. Practice practice practice!
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Old 08-18-2009, 12:48 PM   #7
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Default Re: making downhill archery shots

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Originally Posted by grnhorn View Post
Thanks guys. That's what I thought. Practice practice practice!
They say that in the morning you have wind up hill...I emptied my quiver trying to adjust for a down hill shot and the wind up hill raising the arrow over the shoulder of a nice 5x5 elk. I tried to adjust down for the 'up draft in the morning" and slid just under his belly! No elk, found all my arrows...still wear the grin!
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Old 08-18-2009, 01:54 PM   #8
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Default Re: making downhill archery shots

The Arch in the trajectory of any non-powered projectile is caused by the force of gravity. When shooting either up hill or down hill this effect is decreased in relation to line-of-sight. The force of gravity is actually working for or against projectile speed instead of distance from the line-of-sight. Because of this both uphill and downhill shots should hit higher than equal distance level ground shots. I would say that your dealing with either a wind or shooting form issue on those downhill shots. An accurately calibrated ballistic compensating rangefinder should tell you how to make those shots.
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Old 08-18-2009, 02:49 PM   #9
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Default Re: making downhill archery shots

depending on the angle you knock off yards. up hill or down hill

bow or rifle.

am i missing something here?

30 yards steep angel could be shot with your 10 yard pin. or 20 in most cases

I remember a turkey at cascade shoot 35 yards away but shoot 10 yard pin almost straight down to the waters edge. miss high and its in the water.


take an old arrow put a dumb dumb on it and shoot some old stumps as you walk through the woods. You will quickly get the jest of it.
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Old 08-18-2009, 03:23 PM   #10
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Default Re: making downhill archery shots

So let me get this straight, you guys are suggesting that if you have an uphill shot of say 30 yards, your shooting it as if it was 25 yards? That doesn't make sense. You have to aim higher the steeper up the shot is and lower or dead on (depending on the distance) for downhill shots.
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Old 08-18-2009, 04:28 PM   #11
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Default Re: making downhill archery shots

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Originally Posted by Mossyhorn View Post
So let me get this straight, you guys are suggesting that if you have an uphill shot of say 30 yards, your shooting it as if it was 25 yards? That doesn't make sense. You have to aim higher the steeper up the shot is and lower or dead on (depending on the distance) for downhill shots.
Yep, that's exactly what we are saying.
Not a bow guy, but physics doesn't care. Uphill or downhill, I shoot 70-75% of the line of sight range on near 45degree shots.
I'm sure a bow is no differant.
Particularly important out of tree stands. Gotta also consider pass through vitals as well.
Hearts aren't behind the front elbow when shot from above.
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Old 08-18-2009, 04:38 PM   #12
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Default Re: making downhill archery shots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc_Rhen View Post
The Arch in the trajectory of any non-powered projectile is caused by the force of gravity. When shooting either up hill or down hill this effect is decreased in relation to line-of-sight. The force of gravity is actually working for or against projectile speed instead of distance from the line-of-sight. Because of this both uphill and downhill shots should hit higher than equal distance level ground shots. I would say that your dealing with either a wind or shooting form issue on those downhill shots. An accurately calibrated ballistic compensating rangefinder should tell you how to make those shots.
I agree with the statement about hitting higher.
Gravity is a constanst force which works on the horizontal(X)axis of a objects vector, as a result given a tangential distance, which consists of both horizontal(X) & vertical(Y) components, you must isolate the horizontal(X) component to determine the actual distance to the target, that is your actual aim point. As the angle increase, the actual distance to the target decrease regard of whether the target is up or downhill.
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Old 08-18-2009, 04:43 PM   #13
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Default Re: making downhill archery shots

Quote:
Originally Posted by grnhorn View Post
This is only my second season with a bow, never had a shot last year. I hunt steep country and the last couple of times I've shot at Sylvan it seems like my shot is hitting lower than it would if it were level ground. At 30 +/- yds (ranged with angle adjust) my arrow would be around 4" low.

Was I imagining things or making wacky shots? Where I hunt it could be quite a bit steeper than anything at Sylvan so I want to master this. Do others adjust their aim up (especially considering the trajectory).
Just a guess, but I am willing to bet that on a down hill shot that you are shading to the bottom of your peep in which case you will shoot low. Shading low in your peep is like lowering your rear sight and you will shoot low if this is done. The same thing happens if you are shooting up hill you will tend to shade high in your peep which will cause you to hit high.
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Old 08-18-2009, 04:47 PM   #14
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Default Re: making downhill archery shots

I guess my bow defies physics then. If I shoot at a target at 40 yards uphill I have to hold higher to hit the same point as a target at 40 yards on level ground.

Physics to me tells me that it takes more energy to go up than it does to go down. To travel the same distance at an incline takes more energy, that goes with anything. So, given that your bow or rifle is firing a projectile at a constant energy level every time, your arrow or bullet will not travel as far uphill as it will horizontally or downhill.

I've been shooting a bow for 17 years and this has always proven to be true.
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Old 08-18-2009, 04:55 PM   #15
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Default Re: making downhill archery shots

The physics guys are right, the arrow falls according to the horizontal distance, so even though the targets true distance is 50 yards, it will fall like something less than that based on angle, regardless of uphill/downhill. Many of the rangefinder ads say "true horizontal distance", which gets shortened to "true distance".

Remember, if your rangefinder says "60 aim like 40", it is still a 60 yard shot, so you have to be capable of shooting that distance.

**I think the cut charts show a very small difference uphill/downhill, but it is only a yard or two.
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Old 08-18-2009, 05:09 PM   #16
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Default Re: making downhill archery shots

Mossyhorn, interesting. I know rifles don't handle like bows. Bows have a LOT more going on besides simply holding down to compensate. And since I know nothing about bows, how the anchor point may shift and such as you bend up/down at the waist, maybe I better just step out of this discussion and let the bow experts handle it.
But I suspect Extorminators post #13 might shed some light on why you haven't noticed it.
Might be some shift in the way YOU hold your bow that self compensates. I can only speculate.
But I know physics doesn't lie. I might...but it doesn't. he, he he.

I kinda envy all you archery guys getting all prepared for the season. Rifles are boring.
I'm just not man enough to go archery.
Good luck this season!!!
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Old 08-18-2009, 05:26 PM   #17
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Default Re: making downhill archery shots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mossyhorn View Post
So let me get this straight, you guys are suggesting that if you have an uphill shot of say 30 yards, your shooting it as if it was 25 yards? That doesn't make sense. You have to aim higher the steeper up the shot is and lower or dead on (depending on the distance) for downhill shots.
Let me break it down for you:
- An animal is 30yds dead on with the laser range finder but is very steep uphill.
- The actual range of the animal is as if you and the animal were at the same altitude. In other words, if you were to float straight up to his altitude, what would the range be?
- In this case, say the actual range was 10yds. You are 10 horizontal yards away from the elk. Use you 10yd pin and you will nail it.
- This works to between 40 and 50yds, up or downhill. Beyond that, you have to start to adjust up on the uphill shots.

I suspect that the majority of misses are high on slant-angles, when the range is known.
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Old 08-18-2009, 05:32 PM   #18
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Default Re: making downhill archery shots

it sounds to me you all need to get and practice your shooting. i have shot many many 3D shoots and won numerous times. you definately and must take yards off when shooting up or down hill its a must.
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Old 08-18-2009, 05:35 PM   #19
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Default Re: making downhill archery shots

here you go i hope this helps.


http://www.kingsmountainarchers.org/...gle-shots.html
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Old 08-18-2009, 05:43 PM   #20
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Default Re: making downhill archery shots

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Originally Posted by two feathers View Post
it sounds to me you all need to get and practice your shooting. i have shot many many 3D shoots and won numerous times. you definately and must take yards off when shooting up or down hill its a must.


this is 100% correct. guns and bows are the same it does not matter up or down hill line of sight is line of sight and true range is true range>
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Old 08-18-2009, 05:54 PM   #21
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Default Re: making downhill archery shots

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great link thank you.
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Old 08-18-2009, 06:37 PM   #22
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Default Re: making downhill archery shots

So what kind of angles are we talking here? I can see this for steep steep shots because the arrow has longer to travel upwards before gravity impacts it (gravity only affects an object in a horizontal path). But for a slight uphill shot where the arrow is on a more horizontal trajectory, the arrow begins to drop the second it is shot as opposed to a more vertical shot. So you should have to aim higher for it to get to the same point.

I don't know, I'll keep doing what has always worked for me and I'll keep hitting the target.
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Old 08-18-2009, 07:06 PM   #23
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Default Re: making downhill archery shots

now does everyone know how to shoot at targets less than 10 yds.
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Old 08-18-2009, 07:37 PM   #24
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Default Re: making downhill archery shots

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now does everyone know how to shoot at targets less than 10 yds.

Use your 50 or 60 yd pins for those shots around 5-7 yards and maybe 10 yds.
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Old 08-18-2009, 08:31 PM   #25
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Default Re: making downhill archery shots

Something related and equally weird...

If you fire a bullet perfectly horizontal to the ground, and drop a bullet from the exact same height at the moment the first bullet leaves the barrel, they hit the ground at the same time.....
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Old 08-18-2009, 09:12 PM   #26
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Default Re: making downhill archery shots

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Originally Posted by Mossyhorn View Post
So what kind of angles are we talking here? I can see this for steep steep shots because the arrow has longer to travel upwards before gravity impacts it (gravity only affects an object in a horizontal path). But for a slight uphill shot where the arrow is on a more horizontal trajectory, the arrow begins to drop the second it is shot as opposed to a more vertical shot. So you should have to aim higher for it to get to the same point.

I don't know, I'll keep doing what has always worked for me and I'll keep hitting the target.
Mossyhorn, you're incorrect, and it's totally understandable. Here's a different way to look at it; gravity is constantly pulling your arrow toward the earth. It doesn't pull any harder when your arrow is going up or down--the amount of "drag" (gravity's force) on your arrow is the same. That's hard to imagine, because we tend to think that gravity becomes more intense as we go straight up versus when we move horizontally. But that isn't how constant forces work. To get over this "aim higher for uphill" bias that we all naturally have, think of it this way: if you were to shoot at a bird that was straight up above your head, 20 yards away, would you aim right at him or aim high? Right at him, obviously, because you know that gravity isn't going to do anything to your arrow except slow it down (it won't knock it off course, since your arrow is going straight up...and it's impossible to aim high when you're pointing straight up anyway).

Now imagine the bird is still at 20 yards, but moves a foot offset of true vertical (so if he poops it will just miss you to the side). You'll now have to hold just SLIGHTLY high to offset gravity's effects. Now keep that visual going...the bird stays 20 yards away, but moves in an arc toward the ground. As he gets closer to the ground (parallel to you), you'll have to aim higher and higher because gravity has more of an opportunity to pull your arrow off its course as the horizontal distance increases.

Once the bird is parallel with you, you're now experiencing the maximum arrow drop. But once the bird is below your elevation, the process reverses. If he's a foot in elevation below you, you don't have to hold quite as high. The "holdover height" will steadily decrease until you're on top of him. So if you're in a tree and the bird is on the ground directly below you, you hold right on him again.

So, yeah, there's something strage happening if you're having to hold high at an animal that is above you in elevation. Your form has to be off for that to occur.

The principle does not change with bullets, or any other object.
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Old 08-18-2009, 09:13 PM   #27
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Default Re: making downhill archery shots

draw your bow, then bend at the waist.
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Old 08-18-2009, 09:13 PM   #28
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Default Re: making downhill archery shots

Quote:
Something related and equally weird...

If you fire a bullet perfectly horizontal to the ground, and drop a bullet from the exact same height at the moment the first bullet leaves the barrel, they hit the ground at the same time.....
That is a fact. These guys that are saying to take yardage off for uphill and downhill shots alike are spot on. I have been in many arguments on this subject and most people are just to hard headed to learn what is right in front of them.
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Old 08-18-2009, 09:55 PM   #29
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Default Re: making downhill archery shots

Dorsey, thanks for the explaination that was the most helpful. I can tell you one thing, I don't bend at the waist when I shoot up. I guess one thing that always made me believe that you have to aim high is that you would think it would be the opposite of what you would do for a downhill shot. If you aim low on a down hill shot you would think you'd have to aim high on an uphill shot.

This is definitely something I'm going to be messing around with. I'll try messing with my form but in all honesty whatever I've been doing seems to work for me. I guess it's one of those unexplained deals. Like I said, I've been shooting bows for 17 years. All I've ever done is archery hunt and I shoot quite a bit and this is all news to me.

Thanks for trying to explain it all to me.
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Old 08-18-2009, 10:03 PM   #30
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Default Re: making downhill archery shots

You bet! I took the time to write that because someone else did the same for me a few years back after I missed three monster mountain mulies in three years. If not for a patient explanation from my grandpa, I'd still be aiming high on uphill shots!
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Old 08-18-2009, 10:06 PM   #31
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Default Re: making downhill archery shots

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Originally Posted by two feathers View Post
now does everyone know how to shoot at targets less than 10 yds.
didnt start doing that until last year i can still use my 20yd pin up to 8 yds then every 1 1/2yds closer i go down to the next pin...everyone should practice these shots before season IMO
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Old 08-18-2009, 10:20 PM   #32
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Default Re: making downhill archery shots

you cut on up and down hill shots

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Old 08-18-2009, 10:24 PM   #33
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Default Re: making downhill archery shots

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Originally Posted by Mossyhorn View Post
I guess my bow defies physics then. If I shoot at a target at 40 yards uphill I have to hold higher to hit the same point as a target at 40 yards on level ground.

Physics to me tells me that it takes more energy to go up than it does to go down. To travel the same distance at an incline takes more energy, that goes with anything. So, given that your bow or rifle is firing a projectile at a constant energy level every time, your arrow or bullet will not travel as far uphill as it will horizontally or downhill.

I've been shooting a bow for 17 years and this has always proven to be true.
it's not the bow.
you cut on both.
Your "perceived" draw length will lengthen on uphill shots, shorten on downhill shots. Depending on the course we are going to shoot, we adjust the draw slightly to compensate. Lots of uphill shots, we shorten the draw or change out the loop for a shorter one. Hand position can change and so does head/peep location if you're not careful.
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Old 08-19-2009, 04:46 AM   #34
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Default Re: making downhill archery shots

if you have good shooting technique, like bending at the waist when shooting uphill or down your draw length peep alignment will not change if it does you need to work on your form
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Old 08-19-2009, 07:38 AM   #35
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Default Re: making downhill archery shots

we can argue about "bendiing at the waist" but the reality is, we don't. The best in the world don't bend a whole lot at the waist. It's more of a half and half deal.
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Old 08-19-2009, 07:53 AM   #36
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Default Re: making downhill archery shots

and thats why if you dont bend at the waist you are not as consistant and archery needs you to be the same on every shot. like if you punch the trigger instead of squeezing you will be off your mark and those are the people who need to work on their form
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Old 08-19-2009, 10:10 AM   #37
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Default Re: making downhill archery shots

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Originally Posted by xXx Archery View Post
you cut on up and down hill shots


Yup...this is exactly the picture that my buddy drew for me to explain the differences in distances during angle compensation. Good visual!

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Old 08-19-2009, 10:45 AM   #38
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Default Re: making downhill archery shots

This is correct and the best/easiest way to understand this situation. True for gun and bow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crabbait View Post
Let me break it down for you:
- An animal is 30yds dead on with the laser range finder but is very steep uphill.
- The actual range of the animal is as if you and the animal were at the same altitude. In other words, if you were to float straight up to his altitude, what would the range be?
- In this case, say the actual range was 10yds. You are 10 horizontal yards away from the elk. Use you 10yd pin and you will nail it.
- This works to between 40 and 50yds, up or downhill. Beyond that, you have to start to adjust up on the uphill shots.

I suspect that the majority of misses are high on slant-angles, when the range is known.
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