Trouble Maker, or Peace Maker?

[Jennie@ifish]

It's no secret that some people on ifish like to make trouble, enjoy the fights, etc.
Let's make it no secret then, that the moderators, once we realize you are a trouble maker, will probably watch your posting more carefully, and take action, once you get that reputation! :smile: It gets tiresome!
The moderators work for free on ifish. I'd like to fix that soon, so that they do get paid, but until I figure out how to increase revenue, they are doing it out of the goodness of their heart, and because they like ifish. Let me guarantee you, they don't LIKE it for the fighting, and neither do I!
I was, however, curious. How many people like ifish for the fighting? Does it draw you to the scene of the accident like a bunch of lookiloos?
:smile: The more dramatic and personal, the better?
Or, contrary to that, would you rather see a group of people sharing their love for fishing, and getting along?

This, ladies and gentlemen, is my poll. Let me guarantee you, I have no intention of learning how to figure out who votes what, if that is even possible. To my knowledge, it is not.
So, answer in all honesty, and I, in all honesty will tell you, I can't tell who is voting what!
(Even if we could tell, it would probably already be apparent by your posting style!)

I'm going to tell you right here and now, that I personally don't like the fighting. It's thoroughly depressing to me.

I do understand, though, that I get up in arms when someone suggests that it is OK to harm fish, or rivers, etc. I do feel that passion to smash someone occasionally, too!
:smile:
Jen

[ 07-28-2003, 07:07 AM: Message edited by: Jennie@ifish ]

[Jennie@ifish]

If you think this is a dumb poll, it probably is. It was written after one cup of coffee.
Shall I try again after two or three?
:smile:
Jen

[Straydog]

I don't think it is dumb but I don't think you should have put "Dork" in your last question, either, ya Dork!! [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img] :grin: :grin:

I had trouble with that one as the answer was the one that applied except you ain't no dork.

I have been giving some thought to your revenue issues and have something to throw out.
Please understand that I realize it would be a very big undertaking but, with the contacts you and others have, possibly do-able.

I have noticed many excellant photos posted by various members here on Ifish. What about them and more being donated to Ifish and put into a coffee table like book to sell? There are many venues and opportunities to peddle a book like this and the unique photo opps. presented to people that spend so much time outdoors is unlimited.

Obviously, lots of our folks have good eyes for the beauty of nature and I bet would jump on the opportunity to be published, especially for the benefit of Ifish.

Beyond that, whenever you decide to start charging us, let me know as I will surely pony up. Heck, it might eliminate some of those just looking for fights, too. Pro Wrestling proably isn't as attractive on pay for view as it is for free........ :grin:

[skein]

Nope, Jen, you're right on. I enjoy ifish for the camaraderie and the sharing. I have met so many NICE people on ifish and that's what I concentrate on. Seems like some of the "troublemakers" you mention would find something to be upset about no matter what.

My hat is off to the Mods who keep things in line and headed forward. Maybe we could take up a collection and send 'em on a great charter or guided trip. They've certainly earned it.

Overall and through and through - Ifish is the finest spot on the entire internet! [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

Skein

[2LEYS]

I enjoy the debating, not fighting. I have learned a lot here on ifish both about hunting/fishing and other topics that are more political.

So I propose that you make another thread that is used for debating political issues. That way Life in Gerneral could be a more cheerful non political forum.

Just call it politics and maybe loosen the rules slightly, keep the personal attacks illegal but maybe open the topics up a bit.

[LIMIT LANDER]

Limit lander <-----he is looking in his Funk and Wagnel to see what a 'LOOKILOO" is
:grin:

[BuckisMunz]

This is Hilarious. Actually I personnally think it's a great poll. I have 1 message board that I'm currently running, and it has no where near the class that this message board has (granted it's for computer gamers). I really enjoy the fact that we can have an opinion about something without fear of being slammed. Your doing a wonderful job!!!

[1pump]

Yeah, there's troublemakers, but I think some people can't make the distinction between "spirited discussion" and "fight".
Somebody here said that some people on this board take themselves far too seriously. I'd be inclined to agree.
I've never sent anyone hate mail (I've received some, though) or blown the whistle on a post. Using the 10/90 rule, I'd bet it's 10% of the people doing 90% of the whining, and thus causing the mods grief.

[Hoosier Daddy]

It's good to see from the polls that there are absolutely no trouble makers on Ifish (as of this post). Glad I didn't click it and become the only one.

[OceanBlue]

Ohmigosh! Straydog has a good idea! [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] Hmmm...

Jennie? What about it? I'd give you pics and my consent to publish them.

What a wonderful win-win suggestion!

I really enjoy LIG for a place to share ideas, gather input, etc. I do like to read other's opinions (even when they differ from mine). What I don't like is when people feel like they have to bash others for having a different opinion. It's kind of like when elections are coming up... when I see one candidate running a dirty campaign, bashing the other candidate(s), I'm so much less likely to vote for the one doing the bashing. Tell me what is good about your opinion, not what's wrong with everyone else's. [img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img]

And if I read "conservative", "righty", "lefty", or "liberal" (or any of the other political leanings euphemisms) one more time I'll probably go into orbit. :shocked:

[Straydog]

Originally posted by OceanBlue:
Ohmigosh! Straydog has a good idea! [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] Hmmm...

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">As my dear, late daddy used to say........"a blind hog (dog?) will find an acorn once in awhile"

"Ahey,ahey,ahey........ thankya. Thankya very much...." :grin: :grin:

[Killertraylor]

Straydog - I think hogs find truffles, but maybe they find acorns too? I'm pretty sure dogs don't find acorns. I've heard "Even a blind squirrel sometimes finds an acorn"

I had a grandpa who used to screw up all the metaphors too. He used to say "Colder than Hades" and "Out of the frying pan and into the Kettle" It was actually pretty cute when he got older. Your post reminded me of that.

[Killertraylor]

Jennie - since you brought it up :grin: ...As you know, one of the problems is that sometimes the moderators, no matter how good their intentions, are also "troublemakers" from time to time. I presume you police them, but I also know from experience that you do not allow anyone to openly criticize them. When I've done this in the past, my post was deleted. (I'm starting to feel like a troublemaker as I write this :shocked: ) - but that isn't my intention. I thought this might be an appropriate place to mention this as I've spoken with several others on ifish who have the same concern.

I feel for you though - I'm sure it's very difficult to find people who will donate the amount of time that the moderators do and not make mistakes or start fights from time to time. However, I don't believe that this entitles them to preferential treatment when it comes to sharing their ideas or deleting the ideas of others who criticize them.

I've said in the past that I'd be willing to pay a nominal membership fee ($3-5 a month) to post on ifish. That would actually get rid of a lot of the troublemakers. I also think you might have some more objective and less troublesome moderators if they were actually getting some form of payment for the time they spend.

I'd be willing to bet that 1/3 of the current membership would stay on at $3 a month. I haven't checked the latest tally, but that's about $4,000 a month that could be used to pay moderators, upgrade your equipment when necessary, etc. I'm sure you've considered this idea before and maybe it's just a logistical nightmare for you! Just thought I'd let you know that I'd support it.

Joe

[crabbait]

Killertraylor (and everyone else who has mod concerns) - It's one of those troublesome mods:

Moderators are entitled to an opinion and to express our opinions, just like everybody else. We are also pretty good at expressing our opinions while staying on topic without attacking people with opposing opinions. Some people have a hard time telling the difference.

Sometimes people will post to inflame, name call or disrespect someone on a thread that mods, as posters with opinions, have posted to. When that happens we have to put on our mod hat and address the out-of-bounds poster. If you see us referring to the AUP, we are acting as moderators.

It may appear to the person who's opinion is opposite the mods opinion that he has been "moderated" based on the opposing opinion instead of according to the AUP. In every case that I have seen where this accusation was made there was a very clear violation of the AUP that needed to be addressed. Often, a moderator not involved in the discussion will handle the moderation, however, this is not always possible.

Another misconception I would like to address: Mods don't work alone. We constantly confer on actions to be taken and share actions that have been taken. You will see one moderator's moniker on action taken but you can be assured, we are in agreement. We also mantain a record of actions taken and the reasons for those actions. Rarely do we take an action without the concurrence of another mod. Exceptions include racist/sexist comments, posts clearly made to inflame and profanity or obviously offcolor remarks.

Another often heard compaint is "inconsistency". We do our best to be consistent and reserve the right to be inconsistent when factors that the membership may not be aware of warrant it. Ifish is not a democracy. We never promised you would always know everything we know. This is Jennie's house. We play by Jennie's rules. The first rule is Jennie gets to change or break the rules depending on the circumstances and she does not have to justify her decisions.

Moderating ain't easy. If you have a question as to why a post was edited, please contact the moderator privately via email for an explanation. Be civil in your enquiry and you can expect a civil response.

[Straydog]

Originally posted by OceanBlue:
SD - I didn't actually mean it that way. :blush:

Let me try that again - Omigosh, what a great idea Straydog!

(then again, it was kinda funny the other way, no?)

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Hey, no problem! I got a chuckle out of it, really!

I'm glad you liked the idea and think the suggestion someone made about a calender makes sense too!

Gonna go root out acorns now........ :grin:

Dog

[Jennie@ifish]

Crabbait, just one thing here...

Remember, I have been edited too, and I didn't like it one bit!

But, it stayed edited, and I have been outvoted and overtaken on occasion, also... So, not even that rule is a for sure thang! :smile:

I try very hard to stay within my own rules. I also don't think they are all my own rules. Most often, we bring up the problem and discuss it until we come up with what seems like a reasonable rule.

My rule, though, that I will not budge on, is profanity and potty talk. That just plain turns me off on the bulletin board. That is my rule, and I will stand by that, and take all fallout and responsibility for that one. Yip! :smile:

Jen

[drhall99]

I'm not sure where this topic is going to end up but as one who has stirred the pot a time or two, I would hate to see true debate eliminated on ifish. I think people should be able to stand for what they believe in and voice their opinions. I'm not talking about gang bashing or anything like that. I mean real, topic driven, debate.

JMO,
D.

[Thumper]

Jennie --- You refer to some discussions on LIG as "fighting" and those that "fight" are termed "troublemakers". I think you miss the whole point.

When we have on LIG an exchange of views by those that disagree strongly it is not fighting. It is disagreeing. Nothing more. Nothing less. It is "life in general". I have never understood why you feel that intellectual disagreement is fighting.

LIG is a great place to exchange views. Sadly, it is way, way, way overmoderated, often to the point of silliness. The fact that the moderators are nearly all flaming liberals tweaks us conservatives (rednecked rightwingers) sometimes, but that is, after all, just "life in general" too. :tongue:

And I would vote for charging any amount you feel is needed. I'd gladly pay for the privelige of participating on Ifish.

[ 07-29-2003, 07:41 AM: Message edited by: Thumper ]

[Straydog]

This is when that tongue biting icon would come in handy!! :grin:

"Flaming liberals..........."
:grin:

[crabbait]

Thumper - I agree that LIG needs to be a place for people to express their strongly felt opinions. Nothing wrong with that. That is how we learn what other people think and why they have strongly held opinions.

The problem comes when people start labeling other people, saying things that are intended to disrespect or anger the person they disagree with, like calling people "flaming liberals" just because they don't hold the same opinion that you do. Why can't people just express themselves and leave the other person's opinion alone?

Strongly express your views, please, but don't throw rocks at mine or disrespect me by calling me names. Let people decide where they stand on an issue without the personal attacks.

Debate is one thing, but this ain't Rush Limbotomy. Name calling is not allowed by the flaming liberals, the lambasting libertarians or the redneck rightwingers!

[ 07-28-2003, 10:34 PM: Message edited by: crabbait ]

[Point-of-Sale Clerk]

Straydog... here you go

[happybrew]

I noticed that the Angler's Chapel didn't have a moderator until after one of my postings on January 28th, an anniversary for a topic that many find controversial. Does this make me a troublemaker? There is a particular topic that has been labeled off limits. Does the desire to express an opinion on that topic make one a troublemaker? What is trouble and what is peace? I started a topic based on the violation of the law by a prominent group in our society, but instead of addressing that violation of the law, replies, particularly by the moderators, were addressed toward that off-limits topic. Was I being a troublemaker? Were the mods being troublemakers by referring to that off limits topic?

There are many on this board whom I disagree with on numerous issues. Yet I would enjoy having a beer with them. Does this make me a peacemaker or a troublemaker?

Jesus was the ultimate peacemaker, yet he was considered a troublemaker by many of his contemporaries.
There is no one standard for being a peacemaker or a troublemaker. Specific behaviors should be banned, like namecalling, racial comments, etc. But mere controversy by itself is an opportunity to discuss issues. Hard feelings from an open and frank discussion are the result of immaturity or a hardened and intolerant dogmatism.

happybrew

[Ray S.]

Good poll, good topic.
About the funding deal, I kinda liked the photo book idea. Gave me an idea.... how about calenders. Just a few format starting of course with Girls of Ifish, family themes or for the ladies, Guys of Ifish... What do you folks think???
Ray

[OceanBlue]

SD - I didn't actually mean it that way. :blush:

Let me try that again - Omigosh, what a great idea Straydog!

(then again, it was kinda funny the other way, no?)

[Capin' Dan]

Jennie, Some day somebody is going to sit down and write about all the accomplishments that Ifish has had here in the pacific northwest. I bet even you would be shocked. All this doesn't get accomplished without people being passionate about certain things. Where I work we even have classes that deal with this very topic. We have to have these kinds of discussions sometimes they turn into fights and goes places that none of them want to go sometimes as far as inviting some one out behind the wood shed. When you see this and are getting ready to hit that big red button that shuts down ifish please sit back and have one more cup of coffee think about the rivers that are cleaner, the fish that are clipped, the additional protien in the water so that the smolt will survive, think about the newbe tieing into a 50 lb king or 70lb halibut because some ifisher was nice enough to invite them along. Jeannie you made this happen. You will never know the true impact that you have had with this little board BUt for myself and about 5000 others here in the northwest I thank you. I have been with ifish since the beginning and do not know what I would do without it.

Capn' Dan!

[OceanBlue]

Gee thanks Thumper! My trip into orbit was fun.... NOT!

What I really hate about "labels" is that I don't believe anyone is 100% what the label implies. I'm usually very "conservative", but not all of my views are typical "republican" or "right wing". I'm pretty middle of the road and passionate about a few things that would make some call me a "flaming liberal."

I think this could (or the opposite) be applied to most folks.

Can't we drop the name-calling and labelling?
Can't we all just get along?

[Killertraylor]

Thanks, Crabbait for the explanation - that actually helped a lot. I've always thought moderator responsibility was a "grey area" and you explained it well. Thumper - I tend to agree with you, although I wouldn't use the term "flaming liberals" (at least I wouldn't use that term publicly to describe the mods ). I do respect the job they do which is why I said I'd be willing to pay a fee so they could get some sort of reward for the time they donate. Maybe eventually a conservative like you or I will invade their midst?

Thanks again, Crabbait.

[Mr. Carp]

Thumper:

*** Clerk: That is a cool one. We need to adopt that one.

[Thumper]

Originally posted by OceanBlue:
Gee thanks Thumper! My trip into orbit was fun.... NOT!

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I must have missed something :whazzup:

[reeldick]

There have been great discussions on ifish but there have also been some nasty arguements. I tend to not read any further when the going gets nasty.

I look for the new information that I can use in the future and the fishing stories and pics that people like 5-Cents and Fear No Fish post. Things like "Carrot Milk." What a hoot! Tends to make fun reading.

[crabbait]

Thumper - I believe she was referring to the "flaming liberal" comment. She found it offensive.

[ 07-29-2003, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: crabbait ]

[Thumper]

Hmmmm. I find it interesting that conservatives don't really object to name-calling or labels. Feel free to call me an ultra-conservative, Reagonesque, redneck, or any other label that you like. No problem. That's me.

But call a liberal a "flaming liberal" and they "go into orbit", as OceanBlue herself states. Why are liberals so sensitive to being labelled as "flaming"? Liberals seem to have lost their sense of equanimity.

It is as though conservatives accept the fact that they are on one side of the issue, but most liberals want us to believe that they are really "conservative" on most issues, and are only liberal on selected subjects. Again, OceanBlue emphasizes that in her own words.

The good news is that there are fewer and fewer liberals in America every year. Conservatives have clearly won the day. Recent polls indicate that more than 70% of Americans consider themselves as conservatives.

We conservatives really don't mind being labelled. But them is fightin' words to the liberals.

Interesting ....

[Point-of-Sale Clerk]

The definition of "SAINT":
"A dead liberal who is worshipped by living conservatives."

[STGRule]

Now Thumper, that isn't entirely true. I have referred to myself as a flaming liberal a number of times (a tree hugger sometimes too). It doesn't bother me. But, maybe you and I have a higher tolerance or thicker skin. I would not presume to assign my feelings to others. If people don't want to be called names, then we shouldn't do it. It's the liberal, feel-good thingy in my brain that makes me think of others feelings too. In order to keep people focused on our beliefs instead of focusing on our foibles, perhaps we should state the beliefs without the drama.

I've even accused STG of being my "Favorite Flaming Liberal" and she takes it well.
:smile: Thank you Ruth :smile:

[STGRule]

Keta, [img]graemlins/hearton.gif[/img]

[Uglygreen]

It may appear to the person who's opinion is opposite the mods opinion that he has been "moderated" based on the opposing opinion instead of according to the AUP. In every case that I have seen where this accusation was made there was a very clear violation of the AUP that needed to be addressed. Often, a moderator not involved in the discussion will handle the moderation, however, this is not always possible.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Bull... and I can proove it... and nothing was done.

UG

[Jennie@ifish]

Yes, UG, there probably are not one, but several times this may have happened. So?

Take us to court? Sue us?

This is a fun discussion forum, or was supposed to be. It mostly still is, as far as I can tell.
I don't know what to do about trying to please everyone. I try, and so do the mods, but I guess there will be some things we can't do, although we try to be fair to all.

Ifish never claimed to be consistent in any way, shape or form. We try our best, and our best, you will get.
We simply try our hardest to do the best job possible on limited funds, and limited time.

We do it for you. We do it for ourselves. We do it for the love of fishing.

We have families, jobs, and lives of our own, too.

There are some times, when it is late at night, or we are so tired from a day's modding, that we simply shake our heads, turn off the computer, and go to bed. We are not super heroes, nor are we tireless!

If you are not having fun anymore, I simply can't tell you what to do. You'll have to decide that yourself... cuz... I'm still havin fun. :smile:

Sometimes I feel like people walk into my home, (the board) and start re arranging furniture, or telling me that the coffee cups should be here, and the silverware over there, and how dare I put them in the wrong cupboard? It feels invasive and wrong. I just don't understand it!

I do the best job I can in arranging the furniture around ifish, and running the household. You may, however, find dust in some corners. :grin:

Frankly, it is distressing to try the very hardest that you can, only to be openly faulted on the board for your efforts. It ruins my day, and I'm sure offends the moderators, who do so much work, for so little gratification.
Jen

[ 07-30-2003, 06:10 AM: Message edited by: Jennie@ifish ]

[Jennie@ifish]

I went out fly fishing this morning on the Wilson. As I fished, it was really quiet all around me and foggy, and forced me to think. Now, that's not easy for me! :smile:

So, I was thinking that this held a close similarity to those of you who think as moderators, that we are inconsistent.

When I was a child, sometimes I would do something that I knew would bring consequence. I never knew, however, to what degree I would have to make amends for my pushing of limits.

Sometimes, when I felt like I would REALLY get into trouble, I didn't, and other times, the slightest thing provoked my Mother.

Why?

Here's what I think. Sometimes, my Mother had a hard, long day. Perhaps, sometimes I did something really wrong, and she pretty much let it go, because perhaps my sisters and brothers had been challenging her all day, or she got a large electricity bill, and was worried, or in general, she was simply tired of dealing with things, and needed to let it go.

Or-- sometimes I did something slightly wrong, and she had all the time in the world to deal with me, and wanted to make sure I didn't forget what I did was dead wrong! So, she dealt with me with a heavy hand. OUCH!

Point being, on the mod board, some days we run into challenge after challenge, 10 hours long, trying to make decisions on what to do about this, and that, and this, and that... Long letters of explanation and finger pointing come in... We answer them, one after another, trying to make peace. Then, along comes another infraction, just as we thought we were going to be able to eat dinner and be with our families. Then the phone rings and Andrew needs to be picked up, or David calls from school and says he forgot his homework, the dog is barking, the chickens are loose, and the toilet is flooding! ARGH!

What to do? Turn off the computer and walk away! Or-- Disable the poster until we have time and a better frame of mind to deal with it!

Usually a poster knows when he is posting outside of the AUP, and usually, the person, when written to, admits it, and mends the way. Some days everything goes right! Others? Well....

Just like we have good days and bad days, stressful, and not so stressful days, so do you, the poster. It almost takes magic, and a perfect balance of patience between us all, to make a perfect board. That's not often going to happen, but in history, I HAVE had days like these!

Thus, I think you can better understand the intricacies and inconsistencies of a live discussion between 4000 people, and a handful of moderators. We all have different temperaments, moods, and situations, at any given moment.

Add those together, and at any one time, not everyone is going to jive right!

So, if this makes any sense, take this into consideration when you post something that might get edited. You may not get a consistent reaction, until we all make this a consistent world. You just never know. Did you push us too far on this particular day? UH OH!

Some people think it is because we pick on them, personally, but that is just not true. You may have been the one to break the camel's back, but we value each and every one of you, as contributors to ifish.

Shall we all take prozac? Perhaps that would even the playing field. :smile:

Jen

[ 07-30-2003, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: Jennie@ifish ]

[AuntyM]

Me? A trouble maker? :grin:

I only respond to about 1/20 of the posts I read on Ifish. I don't set out to make trouble. Many times, I see the "bait" and ignore it. I know there are a group of folks here, whose purpose it seems, is to use the board to "elevate" their egos. Generally they do it by putting down others, but it takes several forms. Usually subtle, sometimes not so subtle.

Once a pattern has been established, like continuing arguments from the same people, that pick at ANYONE who doesn't agree, then it's no longer having an "intelligent debate" It's a witch hunt with an agenda that turns ugly. When it gets to that point, then I become a trouble maker for sure.

I resent the way some of you use Ifish. These forums are Jennie's and they were created to further sport fishing and bring folks together. She didn't create it so that a few clever people can get a quick "ego" fix, or spout propaganda to further a political agenda that doesn't enhance sport fishing.

Lots of positive things have happened in Oregon because of her efforts, and those she calls friend. Don't mess that up! I am so very tired of what a select few try to get away with around here. It's a daily thing!

When it gets to the point that folks get mad and leave, then something should be done. Is it because they are "weak" and can't take it? Or are they being singled out by the bullies?

With that in mind, I would like to make a suggestion. Not even sure it's possible but it would be interesting. How about a limit to how many times you can post on a particular thread? Say, no more than 3 times? Even better would be a limit to how many times a day you can post. Maybe certain members would be more careful in what they post if they knew they couldn't keep tossing fuel on the fire?

One very important thing to leave you with. When I walk away from my computer, what is the impression I take with me? If I meet someone in a store while shopping, and Ifish is brought up, do I gripe about this forum, or do I tell that person the positive things that have been accomplished here? You can bet I tell them the positive stuff.

[Killertraylor]

For what it's worth, I didn't agree with Crabbait's statement that UG pointed out above, but in the end, who cares? Like Jennie said, there were never any promises that the mods would do their job perfectly. I had a few posts edited a few weeks ago that I thought were unnecessary or done for improper motives but with a little communication between the moderators and Jennie I was satisfied with the result. Do I still think they were wrong? Yes. Do I forgive them? Entirely! In the grand scheme of things does it really matter? No! Now if they were being paid $40,000 a year as professional moderators, then I'd still be upset. However, when you consider how much time they spend, with no other motive than to keep this great website running, I believe they are entitled to some inconsistency in carrying out their responsibilities. In all, I think they do a very good job, and one that I certainly couldn't take the time to do.

[Pete]

... and then we come up with ideas like adding a rule to the Acceptable Use Policy such as "you must be gracious when you visit Ifish". Lots of flexibility to interpret what "gracious" means, but it's easy to see when someone isn't. It comes up with tongue in cheek, cuz it could easily be abused, but the truth is, we do have an expectation that people will be respectful and tolerant and positive. Maybe it could an "interpretive statement", sort of an advisory thing.

Hey then I want a complete refund of my monthly ifish membership fee!!!
Oh yeah...that's right :shocked:

IT COST US NOTHING TO BE HERE!!!

Jennie take that gun away from my head that forces me to come here against my will :grin:

[BrionLutz]

AuntyM,

Interestingly, I would say that you fit your description of "evil online doers" as I'm sure I fit it from your perspective. I get moderated as much as the next person.

It's a judgement call by the moderators. All the threats to leave unless they get their way or the complaints that " the moderator loves Billy more than me". Sheesh...it's just an online discussion board.

If it means anything, I would guess the moderators probably feel more of a need to edit replies from folks they likely agree with on the issues...bending over backwards to be fair.

It's so easy to avoid an online conversation if one is not interested in it or it bugs them in some way. To pariticipate in them, then complain about them seems a bit contradictory. My favorite is the person who posts 20 messages in a conversation commenting on how silly that particular conversation is...Hello!!??

How is Ifish supposed to grow if new folks come in and old folks threaten to leave because it's not the same old neighborhood. It's a combo of the "Glory Days" syndrome with a dollop of the "Kids Today" lament with a touch of "Peter Pan". Is Ifish going to have to remain a "little kid"?

Has anything really been lost? Is there something preventing the "good old days" conversations?

On the pro-growth side, some folks complain about the political conversations yet that is has contributed to Ifish's success and done some good. Take Jennie and Jerry Dove on the recent lobbying for the license fee. Jerry and I butt heads like crazy on logging issues but we were both in Salem on the same side on that issue. UG is whipping on me as an "agitator" in the salmon thread yet when you were whipping on him about his views on how to work with the commmerical fishermen, he thought I was the only one who "got it".

Keep it civil, keep the emotional tone down, keep it on facts and figures, participate in what you like, ignore what you don't....and go fishing.

Brion

Wow UG taking this stuff a little serious aren't you? :shocked: I'll bet you back before a month too
I used to subscribe to the notion that I just HAD to make sure I got my point across and get in the last word [img]graemlins/icon_argue.gif[/img] I finally came to the realization that it's not going to change anyones opinion about anything and it's pointless.
You may not like the Go somewhere else if you don't agree arguement but it's valid!
I like to debate with good guys like Thumper, BOE, C&E and Captain J and I have major differences of opinion with these guys but like them all...even Bernie :tongue:

[ 07-30-2003, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: Stew ]

[BrionLutz]

UG,

But what you intentionally did to Dan was just plain mean.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Hmmm...your comment above seems to be what you are complaining about in the moderators. I think one of your complaints about the moderating was that your messages were getting edited with no explanation as to what the AUP violation was.

I have the same issue with your comment above...I don't have the foggiest what you think I said to DPD that was "mean" (maybe send me an email). In a way it's a no nevermind. The online medium doesn't allow for bodylanguage. Because there is no bodylanguage, what folks say online can be misinterpreted, no matter how much we edit and massage it before we post it. You have to blow past it. Assume the person had a bad day or didn't quite mean it the way you thought.

Having said that, it is a somewhat valid point about what rule was violated and how. It would be helpful for the moderators to be specific. I know I've asked for that when I got "Knock it off" messages...but the moderators here are volunteers.

In the real world I'm a contractor for AOL, moderating forums and live chat (you think this is wild...try AOL Teen Chat &lt;grin&gt. There are lots of guidelines which are the result of many years (14 in my case) and a lot of past history.

In live chat, which is the online version of shootout at the OK Corral for moderators, one of things we have to do when we warn or lock folks out is to tell them what rule they violated.

Unless it's something obvious like profanity, the person inevitably comes back with a "WhaddidIdo" or "Billy did it too" or accusations that the moderator is biased in some way. Not to tweak you but it is the absolute truth that one of the biggest comments is "The moderator is mean". The moderators just ignore it and move on or you get bogged down in an online version of "Judge Judy" and every case goes to the Supreme Court.

To me, it's the reactions and overreactions that become the real problem.

Folks just need to roll with it. Understand that this isn't the same as a regular conversation, it has different dynamics and that the moderators are volunteers.

Brion
PS Love all your fishing posts. I've learned a lot from them.

[OceanBlue]

Crabbait had it right.

Thanks again Thumper. If I didn't think you enjoyed it so much, I would tell you that you really know how to make a person's blood boil.

If a person has a different view than yours, they get to wear a label that is opposite yours.

If you want to call me "a conservative", I'm going to take it as name-calling.

If you call me "a liberal," I'm going to take it as name-calling.

The use of the word "flaming" has become a synonym for another "F" word. It is offensive.

I don't know anyone who likes to be labeled. It is offensive.

If my "favorite grammar teacher and litigator" takes my words and twists them, I'm going to take it as a personal attack.

My views are my views. My convictions and my beliefs are mine. If I honor you by opening up and sharing them, I would expect that you honor me by respecting my opinion.

Now, is that a "conservative" or a "liberal" view? IMHO it is a "human" view. I expect you to respect me much the same way as you expect me to respect you.

OB OUT

P.S. UG - #2. Definitely #2.

[happybrew]

I take issue with anyone who wants to go at the moderators. In my experience, they have been polite, and quite willing to let the discussion go where it will, even though it might make them squirm. I even had one apoligize to me once when he had a bad day and was a little bit gruff. I think our moderators rock.

Look at the results: This is a huge resource with thousands of people visiting daily. It gets results outside of the internet. It didn't get that way through poor moderation. It got that way because of good moderation. Results talk. It also got where it is because of the members as well. Rather than making it an "us vs. them" issue, I think we ought to take time to celebrate all that has gone right. I see our moderators as continually giving a superb effort to make this site continually better. Nobody is going to agree all the time, and nobody is going to behave the way they should all the time. The moderators don't march to your door Gestapo style and cart you off to Stalag 13. They simply step in when needed. People aren't going to like it when they step in, guarranteed. If someone doesn't like it, shoot them a polite e-mail in appeal of the decision. They'll look at it, and evaluate their actions. But don't get all wound up about it. It's just not worth it, and getting wound up detracts from what this is supposed to be for the person getting wound up: Fun

happybrew

happybrew

[OceanBlue]

Happybrew: [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

I'm thinking that if you're constantly having to be moderated, you need to look at what you're doing.

In my experience, most folks are more interested in "defending" themselves than introspection. The former is easier than the latter.

[Cool Texan]

Originally posted by OceanBlue:
Crabbait had it right.

Thanks again Thumper. If I didn't think you enjoyed it so much, I would tell you that you really know how to make a person's blood boil.

If a person has a different view than yours, they get to wear a label that is opposite yours.

If you want to call me "a conservative", I'm going to take it as name-calling.

If you call me "a liberal," I'm going to take it as name-calling.

The use of the word "flaming" has become a synonym for another "F" word. It is offensive.

I don't know anyone who likes to be labeled. It is offensive.

If my "favorite grammar teacher and litigator" takes my words and twists them, I'm going to take it as a personal attack.

My views are my views. My convictions and my beliefs are mine. If I honor you by opening up and sharing them, I would expect that you honor me by respecting my opinion.

Now, is that a "conservative" or a "liberal" view? IMHO it is a "human" view. I expect you to respect me much the same way as you expect me to respect you.

OB OUT

P.S. UG - #2. Definitely #2.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">[img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

OB, no wonder you are one of my favorite members. There are several members who lose sight of what you posted. Its probably how we were all raised, but somehow in this type of setting people lose sight of those values, and the attacks, jabs and comments start in.

I hereby nominate OB as our new Geek Moderator. :tongue:



By the way, totally off topic, but I like to talk about this....my child is now the size of a lentil. :grin:

[OceanBlue]

CT - :blush: Thanks, but I sure don't think I could handle it. I'm no match for the "grammar teacher"... certainly not interested in having to chase folks who like to stir the pot, just to stir the pot. I've got tremendous respect and appreciation for our mods who do pick up that sword. And for those who come here seeking to share and enlighten - [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

Congrats on your "lentil"... until you find out if it is a boy lentil or a girl lentil, maybe you should call him/her "lentil". My brother dubbed my first embryo "alf" because the ultrasound pic looked like an "alien life form". We called my son "alf" until the day he was born. :grin: It was better than calling him "it".

[Thumper]

Believe me, I really have no interest in making anyone's blood boil. Really. If I did, I apologize.

(To OceanBlue, who is neither conservative nor liberal, and is certainly not a flaming anything)

[ 07-30-2003, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: Thumper ]

[CATCH AND EAT]

Stew, I did'nt realize we ever disagreed on anything. Regan was great was'nt he. :shocked: :shocked: :grin:

[Cool Texan]

OB, we started calling it Peanut, then we found out it was the size of a blade of rice...so I started calling "him" Uncle Ben. Wife didnt like it. So now we're calling him/her "Pinto". :grin:

And I agree, I have a great deal of respect for the mods. Your post should be a "rules of engagement" for the mods as well as each of us. Any personal attacks should be edited to read something really frilly and loving. :smile:

[OceanBlue]

Thumper - Oh, I'm a flaming "something," but you'd have to know me before you could lovingly refer to me that way! :grin:

CT - [img]graemlins/hearton.gif[/img] You mean like saying, "wow, that's a really interesting point." When what you really want to say is, "What are you a *(&$! *&^$#@!" I'm so happy for you, the wife and the little bean that has been so loved and wanted for so long!

[Jennie@ifish]

Dear UG,

I went through and did a search on your name on the mod board.
There wasn't one out of the many that I couldn't site an AUP infraction for.
In keeping with consistency, I could post them all here, but out of respect, I won't do that. When I have a complaint about someone or something, I always think it best to go to the source, first.

Please answer your e mails from the ifish administrators, and perhaps we can come to some kind of an agreement.

Thank you,
Jen

Originally posted by CATCH AND EAT:
Stew, I did'nt realize we ever disagreed on anything. Regan was great was'nt he. :shocked: :shocked: :grin:

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">You mean Donald Regan? Yeah he wasn't a bad guy but Ronald Reagan is a different story :tongue:

[happybrew]

Originally posted by Cool Texan:
Any personal attacks should be edited to read something really frilly and loving. :smile:

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica"> [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

That has potential!

happybrew

[Uglygreen]

OK - thats fine. At least you and Pilar can be honest about it. I appriciate that a bunch more than what Crabbait said that I quoted.

And yeah, I have been hard on some of the moderators around here lately. I will lay off. I know you guys work hard at making Ifish a great service and spend many hours doing it for little reward.

On the other hand, put your feet in a users shoe for a moment. I have spent a few hours around here as well. Im approaching something like 1500 posts. I've tried to be a little 'looser' than most with the what, where, when, and how on those fish catching related things that I know a little about. I feel I have contributed to Ifish in the past and would like to continue to participate in the future. I feel I deserve a little respect from you all from time to time.

Maybe I dont understand what ist like to be in a moderators shoes, but for whatever its worth here are the things that bug me.

1) Indifference: no response at all.

2) Some version of: If you dont like it go someplace else.

3) Moderators are always right, no matter the objective circumstances.

4) Having a post edited / erased cause a moderator feels it is "unnecessary". (No AUP violation)

5) Having a thread closed/locked because of a difference of opinion with a moderator. (No AUP violation)

6) Being threatened w/banishment for being publicly critical of a public comment (not action) made by a moderator.

Like i said, I probably don't understand what challanges being a moderator or running this place entails, but I think that sometimes you folks don't understand or admit how frusterating it can be for some users to participate around here at times.

The above post is a good example.

I think Crabbaits comment above was wrong. I think it was very arrogant and mildly disrespectful. He didnt say "we do the best we can". Or "we are human and make mistakes too". He went back to the moderaters are perfect and never make mistakes, and its all in your imagnation stuff. Well its not all in my imagination. But I guess i'm supposed to just ignore it cause he is a moderator?

This is a fun discussion forum, or was supposed to be.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I thought this was a discussion too. I didnt start the thread, and I was respoinding to what someone else said. I thought discussions sometimes involved opposing points of view? I thought you wanted our opinions? I am sorry mine is wrong.

Take us to court? Sue us?

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Im guessing that if I made the same comment there is a pretty good chance that I would be edited, moderated, or otherwise chastized for attacking the person and not the idea. The Geek would probably send me a little message telling me that my AUP 'violations' were being logged and continued violations would result in banishment.

Which is exactly the way to drive me nuts.

I have no idea if this post is a AUP violation, I hope its not. Am I a troublemaker? I have no idea. You tell me? I certainly hope no one gets too upset over what I have written. Its just an opinion, and probably all wrong. But please at least give it a little consideration.

UG

PS - I'm banishing myself from LIG in general for at least a month...for my own sanity.

[Uglygreen]

After one last post that is....

UG is whipping on me as an "agitator" in the salmon thread

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Because, Brian I think you take it way too far.

Driving and riding someone as nice, helpful, open, and honest as Deope Bay Dan is away just to get kicks and make yourself feel important, takes it way too far. As far as I was concerned, you and I were just having fun argueing on the Bush/Clinton thing... I took none of it personal. But what you intentionally did to Dan was just plain mean.

UG