I think I seized my kicker

[mkwerx]

After all the problems my big motor has given me, I decided to make sure my kicker motor works by barrel testing it.

I got the motor a little over a month ago from a fellow ifisher - it's a '74 6hp Johnson.

Took a while to get it to fire - not sure why exactly, because it fired right up when I got it from the other member. I helped him install a new impeller before testing it when I got it from him - water was spitting out of the exhaust just fine.

The last time I went to tank-test this motor, I noticed the quick connect end on the fuel line was worn out and leaking. Installed a new connector on my fuel line earlier, put the motor in the barrel. Once I got it fired up, it smoked a rich smelling blue smoke, I adjusted the carbs down to the leaner side, and things were working a-OK. Water was still spitting from the exhaust just fine. The motor ran for all of about three minutes before it sputtered and died.

When it died, I went to start it again - this is a recoil start motor - and the fly wheel WILL NOT turn at all. I touched the back of the motor - it was super hot. When I spit on it, it boiled away immediately. First logical guess - water pump went bad. The rear of the motor was very hot, the engine pan was hot, and the shaft was hot. All too hot to touch. When things cooled off, I noticed a LOT of oil floating on top of the water in the barrel, nasty black oil.

So I'm guessing that I completely seized it up. Now the question is - do I dump more money into fixing it, or do I look for another kicker? My luck with outboards this year seems to be spreading like a virus to any outboard I touch. I'm 2 for 2 for dead motors now. I'm starting to think I should stick to paddles and oars

[sucker]

Setting the mixture too lean will melt the pistons.

[budnate]

lay it face down, load the cyls with wd-40..abunch, let it soak, grab the flywheel and see about rocking it, seen more than one get loose and actaully run fine, if it gets loose fire it up and see what it does for water. good luck

[mkwerx]

Originally Posted by sucker

Setting the mixture too lean will melt the pistons.

how much is too lean and for how long? Engine ran for 3 mins tops, with the mixture nob around half-way maybe a little more to the lean-side.

Melted pistons surely would suck.



Bud - thanks for that idea - I think I'll try that. What have I got to loose?

[fishin"G"man]

So you were idling in a barrel and after 3 minutes (even with it peeing good) it was hot enough to seize up? If you did seize it up the leaned out condition in a barrel would be a doubtful cause. Your timing would have to be WAY out if that were so. The lack of oil in the fuel may be the real reason for seize up given all you say is straight up truth.

If you get it freed up, do a compression check. Not sure if this old motor has an inspection plate on the exhaust side but if so, take it off and have a look. Sometimes you get lucky and it just seized. Muriatic acid will get aluminum off the cyl. walls but if the ring lands are scored and piston rings are stuck you may be DIW. If the rings work in the lands you may have gotten a lucky break.

Good luck!!!

[mkwerx]

Wasn't a lack of oil in the fuel, I guarantee that. If anything I added a tad too much oil when I mixed it because I only mixed two gallons for testing the big motor and this kicker a couple wks ago. I've got no reason to not be truthful about anything I say now do I?

I just went out a little while ago and removed the kicker from the barrel and put it back on the mounting bracket on the boat - gave the flywheel another try. It will turn now, but requires a LOT of force to do so. I can get it to turn by pulling the starter rope (I pulled the plug wires off before trying this, and the fuel line was not hooked up for this either) but it something is most definitely wrong. When you turn the fly wheel either by hand or by pulling hte cord, I can hear the pistons moving in the cylinders, and there's a distinct thump both audibly and by feel when turning the flywheel - at about the 3/4 mark through a complete revolution of the flywheel. If I get some free time tomorrow it looks like I'll be pulling the power head on the kicker apart to see what is going on.

I'm keeping my fingers, toes, and left eye crossed that I can get out of this outboard mess easily. The outboard gods are not smiling on me so bright with the big motor, maybe they'll take pity on me with the kicker.

[baitsauce]

A lean mixture will melt the top of the piston(s). But very doubtfully in "3 minutes" unless the gasoline had something mixed in it like MEK.

To answer your question it is probably not a good idea to put a lot of money into a 35 year old motor.

Keep us posted on what you find.

[mkwerx]

Okay, lil' update.

This morning I went out and pulled the plugs, then pulled the cylinder head and thermostat housing apart.

This is what I found:

Plugs - a-OK. Not much in the way of fouling or carbon build up. Surprising, actually, given all the nasty blue smoke that it was puking when it fired up yesterday.

Cylinder head - LOTS of cruddy black carbon built up on the inside of both cylinder caps. It melted right off with a liberal application of brake cleaner.

Piston heads - same nasty black carbon built up on the pistons - it also melted off with brake cleaner. Ran out of brake cleaner. Had a can of carb cleaner. It doesn't work as well as brake cleaner, but I got most of the nastiness off.

The cylinder bores were smooth, unscratched, and appeared to be fine.

After blasting the pistons and cylinder bores with the afore mentioned brake cleaner, the pistons move freely as they should. No more "thump" feeling or sound.

Thermostat - VERY carbon fouled. So nasty the spring barely budged. I SHOULD have checked this when I got the engine. No donut for me for this one. Hosed it down with carb cleaner, but I don't think I'm going to trust this one. Hopefully Harvey will have one in stock for this model. Given the condition of the t-stat, and the fact that the motor was still peeing water from the exhaust, I believe that my water pump is most likely OK - and it was just a stuck t-stat that let the motor get so hot.

The last person to have the cylinder head off used a gasket sealer - since I don't have the shop manual for this motor yet - I don't know for sure if the maker approves of this or not. The manual for my big motor explicitly states NOT to use sealer on the head gaskets. Both are OMC motors, so I'm guessing that sealer is not supposed to be used on the little ones either.

So now my shopping list for this motor includes:

New t-stat
New head gasket
More brake cleaner to finish the decarbonization job

And maybe a water pump if they're not horribly expensive, and are available.

I had my brother in law come over w/ his compression guage, and putting the head back together with the original gasket sans sealer, we tested the cylinders to compare the compression

Top cylinder max compression read: 79 lbs
Bottom cylinder max compression read: 76 lbs

Since the cylinders are within 3lbs of each other using the old gasket, it's probably safe to assume that both pistons/bores are in similar condition, and either both need work or both are fine.

I'm going to wait to fire it up again until I've got the new gasket and thermostat installed.

I'm knocking on wood, but I think I just might've gotten lucky this time, and it wasn't nearly as bad as it appeared to be initially.

[baitsauce]

Originally Posted by mkwerx

So now my shopping list for this motor includes:

New t-stat
New head gasket
More brake cleaner to finish the decarbonization job

And maybe a water pump if they're not horribly expensive, and are available.

That's good that it wasn't "terminal" with this little motor.

Recommend getting a tap the same size, thread and pitch as the head bolts then "chase the threads" in the block getting them good and clean. Use a wire wheel on the head bolts to clean those threads really good.

Add to the list above some gorilla snot to seal and lubricate the head bolts as you torque them. You DO NOT want to torque them dry. I don't like to but I have used regular 30wt motor oil on the head bolts.

Here's what I'm referring to when I mention "gorilla snot":

Keep us posted on the progress.

[Gundog]

A note of caution on using sealent or oil on head bolts if the threads in the block are blind holes too much oil or sealant can cause the bolts to hydraulic and not torque the head properly. What hapepens is the fluid prevents the bolt from fully seating and leaves the head loose even though the proper torque was reached with the bolt. If the holes are not blind it won't mater if they are blind go very sparingly.

Mike

[mkwerx]

Originally Posted by Gundog

A note of caution on using sealent or oil on head bolts if the threads in the block are blind holes too much oil or sealant can cause the bolts to hydraulic and not torque the head properly. What hapepens is the fluid prevents the bolt from fully seating and leaves the head loose even though the proper torque was reached with the bolt. If the holes are not blind it won't mater if they are blind go very sparingly.

Mike

How does one tell?

[baitsauce]

Originally Posted by mkwerx

How does one tell?

Take a piece of wire or a long thin screwdriver and simply run it into your bolt hole. If it bottoms out it's a "blind hole". If it doesn't then it's not.

When you chase your threads with your tap be sure to use some compressed air to blow out your holes. Especially the blind ones.

[mkwerx]

Originally Posted by baitsauce

Take a piece of wire or a long thin screwdriver and simply run it into your bolt hole. If it bottoms out it's a "blind hole". If it doesn't then it's not.

When you chase your threads with your tap be sure to use some compressed air to blow out your holes. Especially the blind ones.

Coolbeans

[mkwerx]

Well fooey. My bad luck continues. Tried firing up the motor today after installing the new t-stat and gaskets. Now I seem to have no spark. Ghetto tested this by having my dad put an insulated-grip screw driver into the plug, and holding it close to the plug end while I yanked the starter rope. Nada. I had him do this after an hour and a half of unsuccessfully trying to get it started.

Anyone know if this motor requires a special tool to hold the flywheel in place while removing the bolt on top?

[baitsauce]

Thats to bad. But it sounds like your making progress.

One thing you might want to try is cranking on it when its dark. As your'e cranking on it look for any stray sparking. If you see any then your'e that much ahead and it should give you an idea of what to do next.

Originally Posted by mkwerx

Anyone know if this motor requires a special tool to hold the flywheel in place while removing the bolt on top?

Take a look at this. It may be an answer to your problem of getting the flywheel off. http://www.ifish.net/board/showthread.php?t=262608

[mkwerx]

Well, got the fly wheel off. Regapped the points, everything looked ok. Reinstalled flywheel. Gave it a shot. Nada, still no spark it seems. Guess tomorrow I'm paying Harvey's a visit again. It'll only be the fourth time in a week I've been there between the big motor and the little motor...at least they still make all the parts for the little motor! The t-stat, head gasket, and t-stat gasket set me back less than $40 for OEM parts.

I'll try that in-the-dark spark test just to double check, but it looks like I'm going to wind up buying a pair of condensers tomorrow. At least they're only $5 a piece... the points looked fine. I guess when the motor got hot it cooked the condensers. At least I'm hoping that will be the end of it.

[fishin"G"man]

Originally Posted by mkwerx

Wasn't a lack of oil in the fuel, I guarantee that. If anything I added a tad too much oil when I mixed it because I only mixed two gallons for testing the big motor and this kicker a couple wks ago. I've got no reason to not be truthful about anything I say now do I?

I just went out a little while ago and removed the kicker from the barrel and put it back on the mounting bracket on the boat - gave the flywheel another try. It will turn now, but requires a LOT of force to do so. I can get it to turn by pulling the starter rope (I pulled the plug wires off before trying this, and the fuel line was not hooked up for this either) but it something is most definitely wrong. When you turn the fly wheel either by hand or by pulling hte cord, I can hear the pistons moving in the cylinders, and there's a distinct thump both audibly and by feel when turning the flywheel - at about the 3/4 mark through a complete revolution of the flywheel. If I get some free time tomorrow it looks like I'll be pulling the power head on the kicker apart to see what is going on.

I'm keeping my fingers, toes, and left eye crossed that I can get out of this outboard mess easily. The outboard gods are not smiling on me so bright with the big motor, maybe they'll take pity on me with the kicker.

Meant no offense with the "truth" comment of course you have nothing to gain otherwise. "Given all you say is truth" is just that... you have no cause for it not to be.

Glad to hear that all you had was a carbon seize. You squeaked by as the carbon was soft (per se') and it didn't score the walls. Now reasoning for that much carbon should be discovered. Blocked water passages could be part reason for the overheat but it doesn't give credence to the large build up of carbon. Remember to check the rings (that they are free in the ring lands). Carbon removal from brake cleaner is great but be careful when you get everything freed up. A little oil will help to lubricate your cylinders when you start up.

$40 bucks for parts didn't sound terrible but you might try Sierra for cheaper parts, they had the old parts you need last I recall.

I can only recall one other "carboned up" motor and that was on a log bronc motor. The problem then was they were using a 2 cycle oil that was not ashless. The engine idled a good portion of the day and because it just sat there idling it built up the carbon until it was solid in the exhaust tube then it gathered up in the cylinders until it quit.

Remember with carbon, if the timing is off and the carbon gets so hot it turns red (burns) it will cause pre-ignition and then you have burned pistons.

I'd say the outboard Gods were nice to you. Your motor is still in decent shape and will run again as you describe it. Look at your points again, the rubbing block may be burned/melted especially if they were plastic.

Good luck with your motor!

[Okie]

It's amazing how much these small engines will take and keep running. Seldom if ever is a small engine actally worn out from to much use'

Good Luck

[fishin"G"man]

Originally Posted by mkwerx

Well fooey. My bad luck continues. Tried firing up the motor today after installing the new t-stat and gaskets. Now I seem to have no spark. Ghetto tested this by having my dad put an insulated-grip screw driver into the plug, and holding it close to the plug end while I yanked the starter rope. Nada. I had him do this after an hour and a half of unsuccessfully trying to get it started.

Anyone know if this motor requires a special tool to hold the flywheel in place while removing the bolt on top?

Yes; there is a tool for that and yes, the method below was tested against it. I just found this method easier to use.
You probably have the head off (and it wouldn't work if so) but I use a piece of 5/16 rope to stuff in the spark plug hole then turn the piston on top of it. The soft rope does no harm to the piston nor head and you can get a reliable torque off that as well. Regardless of taking the flywheel off or putting it back on; it works well both ways.

[mkwerx]

The cylinder head was reinstalled before I discovered I had no spark.

Replaced the condensers yesterday, and still no spark. My hope for a 'cheap' fix went out the window - now it looks like I'll be into this fix at least another $60 - the coils are $30 a piece. The points didn't appear to be damaged at all, so it has to be the coils.

[baitsauce]

Originally Posted by mkwerx

The cylinder head was reinstalled before I discovered I had no spark.

Replaced the condensers yesterday, and still no spark. My hope for a 'cheap' fix went out the window - now it looks like I'll be into this fix at least another $60 - the coils are $30 a piece. The points didn't appear to be damaged at all, so it has to be the coils.

Thats to bad. Looks like the flywheel is coming back off. At least you'll have a new ignition system when your'e done.

//

[mkwerx]

New coils installed now along with new condensers. Haven't had a chance to tank test it, because the plumbers are installing a new water tank & well pump at the moment. This is becoming quite the project...