So you wanna buy American, do you???

TheRogue · 07-14-2003, 01:30 PM

And tell me, how do we do that???

American Car.....or not??

TR

hookem · 07-14-2003, 01:39 PM

I have a store at the mall, and I can't stock it with American products, I have maybe 10% to 20% made in USA. Its inpossable!! Everything is from somewhere else!

1pump · 07-14-2003, 01:49 PM

Good question.
For years I refused to buy "imported" cars. It had to be a domestic make for me to buy it, and preferably Ford, although a big percentage of their parts came from Mexico.
I still have 2 Fords, but I've become so disillusioned with domestic cars and their crappy reliability, especially with electronics and automatic transmissions, that I'll take a good look around next time.
My girlfriend has a Camry, but I can't quite figure out where it originated.
Welcome to the global economy.

Cool Texan · 07-14-2003, 02:21 PM

What if I buy a foreign car in America?!? Does that count?? It still helps the American salesman...so I should get partial credit. :smile:

I'll buy the Lexus or BMW without hesitation because they are just better cars, in their class, than most if not all of their American counterparts. Sure, I'd love to support our car makers, but I'm not going to buy a car that can not compete.

I will keep my Dodge Durango...but who knows, it was probably built in Canada.

My money will be spent on Cool or Quality every time. For the sedan for the wife, it will be the quality angle, thus imported. For my Cool car, whenever I get one, it will probably be American....probably. Its 50/50....and will probably not happen any time soon due to recent developments.

GutshotApe · 07-14-2003, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cool Texan:
I'll buy the Lexus or BMW without hesitation because they are just better cars, in their class, than most if not all of their American counterparts. Sure, I'd love to support our car makers, but I'm not going to buy a car that can not compete.

You should test drive a Cadillac STS (Seville 4-door Touring Sedan)...they're HOT! and they're made in the USA.

Tilla · 07-14-2003, 02:31 PM

Many of the autos "made" in the USA are just "assembled" here and a lot of that is done by robots.

Cool Texan · 07-14-2003, 02:32 PM

And they lose their value faster than...well....dang, I cant think of anything that is really fast in order to complete the sarcasm...so think of something, and fill it in for me. :grin:

Seriously though, I dont think they'll hold their value.

Martin85 · 07-14-2003, 03:04 PM

My new dodge 2500 is put together in Mexico City?

BrionLutz · 07-14-2003, 05:01 PM

TheRogue,

It's hard to buy American but folks could make more of an effort. Just looking at the labels.

Neighbors bought an electric/gas Honda. I've got to wait for Ford to come out with the Escape electric/hybrid in 2004.

If I switch to a prop/outboard drive, I have to make sure I get Merc 4 cycles. That gets a little funny in that Merc 225HP 4 cycle is really a Yamaha.

On fishing gear I think I've got all American rods and reels, line and lures. I was looking for American made hooks the other day...that's tough.

Brion

fish_on · 07-14-2003, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hookem:
I have a store at the mall, and I can't stock it with American products, I have maybe 10% to 20% made in USA. Its inpossable!! Everything is from somewhere else!

I have 5000 USA made products I can stock you with. :grin: We are the greatest most accurate precision tool company in the world, and 99% of our products are made is the USA. If you want America to remain great support USA made products and American manufacturing. Reward U.S companies with your business. Some products you cannot avoid having to purchase an import, but there is still lots of great American companies, the one I work for is one of them, 120 years of putting Americans to work.

07-14-2003, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cool Texan:
My money will be spent on Cool or Quality every time.

I like that

My philosophy exactly...especially with fishing tackle.

RvW · 07-14-2003, 05:16 PM

Fish on...Tools sold to the foriegn auto maker to build your car?

[ 07-14-2003, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: cirrhosis-of-the-river ]

BrionLutz · 07-14-2003, 05:24 PM

Stew,

Quote:

"My money will be spent on Cool or Quality every time." I like that

My philosophy exactly...especially with fishing tackle.

I know what you mean. I think Euro and Japanese stuff is leading edge in engineering and design. However, I think if you look you can find US equivalent in "cool" and "quality". I think it's important to make the effort.

Folks in other countries are much more aware of the economic issues involved and are much more focused on buying local and supporting their own economy.

Brion

GutshotApe · 07-14-2003, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cool Texan:
I'll buy the Lexus or BMW without hesitation because they are just better cars, in their class, than most if not all of their American counterparts. Sure, I'd love to support our car makers, but I'm not going to buy a car that can not compete.

The STS competes very well with the equivalent BMW or Lexus...and the Cadillac has superior styling, IMO.

Quote:

And they lose their value faster than...well....dang, I cant think of anything that is really fast in order to complete the sarcasm...so think of something, and fill it in for me.

Seriously though, I dont think they'll hold their value.

You're making the same rationalization that millions of Americans make every day which have collectively wreaked havoc with the US manufacturing sector.

Do you want to buy American or not? :whazzup:

DanS · 07-14-2003, 05:51 PM

In general, I want to buy American. But I won't if it's not a quality product at a competitive price.

The capitalist market wants whoever can build it best, cheapest to build it. If the best, cheapest car came from Japan, then I'd buy Japanese. That gives me the most for my capital and that's the way the free market works.

You know what the net result of the government bailout of Harley-Davidson in the 80's was? A loss of 4,000 jobs across the US in the sales and service of foreign bikes and other related jobs. Harley is doing fine on their own now, but I still think it's wrong for the government to fiddle too much in the free market. Regulations are one thing, bailouts are another. It's a double-edged sword and the results aren't always what you want them to be.

[ 07-15-2003, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: DanS ]

GutshotApe · 07-14-2003, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DanS:
If the best, cheapest car came from Japan, then I'd buy Japanese. That gives me the most for my capital and that's the way the free market works.

So Dan, just for the sake of discussion, what do you think about Weyerhaeuser's export dock in Longview? Whole lotta logs going to Japan...logs that could employ US millworkers if kept here. We already prohibit exports of federal and state (Oregon) logs...should we ban private log exports, too?

I'm not picking on you personally...maybe you agree with me...but I've noticed over the years rampant hypocricy among many on the import/export issue. People will self-righteously defend their right to buy foreign goods...citing better value, etc...but turn around and want to limit me from getting the best price for my logs...if the buyer is Japanese.

DanS · 07-14-2003, 06:46 PM

GSA,

I'll say right now that a timber company should be able to sell their logs to whomever they please. I feel the same way about any other product, with the exception being sales to minors.

Like I said, any time the government has tried to artificially manipulate the market, it has been a failure. Let the market forces sort it out.......feel-good market manipulation costs everybody money in the long run.

Stratocaster · 07-14-2003, 06:52 PM

Im a ford guy but buick made the top 5 in reliability.

BrionLutz · 07-14-2003, 07:24 PM

DanS,

Quote:

A loss of 40,000 jobs across the US in the sales and service of foreign bikes and other related jobs.

But a gain of 40,000 sales and service jobs on Harley's plus precious mfg. and engineering jobs kept in the US plus $3B in American product purchased vs. trade deficit plus $1B in exports and dollars coming into US economy.

Quote:

Like I said, any time the government has tried to artificially manipulate the market, it has been a failure. Let the market forces sort it out.......feel-good market manipulation costs everybody money in the long run.

There's no such thing as a free market. It can be very damaging for US economy to pretend that there is one and then base policy on non-existent trade environment.

Headline today about US losing high tech jobs. What's left? Our losses on mfg jobs are well documented. With these jobs go engineering, machine tool and other jobs that form the foundation for a good economy.

US has to fight to retain jobs in every sector for a solid balanced economy. It is important that folks make an effort to buy American. Citizens of other countries consider it a duty because they know the economic consequences better than most Americans.

Brion

boater · 07-14-2003, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GutshotApe:
You should test drive a Cadillac STS (Seville 4-door Touring Sedan)...they're HOT! and they're made in the USA.

they may be "assembled" in america but i realy doubt that every part on them is "made" in america.

DanS · 07-14-2003, 08:19 PM

Quote:

But a gain of 40,000 sales and service jobs on Harley's plus precious mfg. and engineering jobs kept in the US plus $3B in American product purchased vs. trade deficit plus $1B in exports and dollars coming into US economy.

Could you name a source for these numbers, Brion?

No free market? I guess if you're talking about government regulations and trade barriers and the like, you're right. But that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

I'll debate economics, international trade, and government manipulation of free markets with you all you want. In nearly all cases the consumer winds up worse off. You protect jobs by being the best at them, not through government protection.

fish_on · 07-14-2003, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by boater:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by GutshotApe:
You should test drive a Cadillac STS (Seville 4-door Touring Sedan)...they're HOT! and they're made in the USA.

they may be "assembled" in america but i realy doubt that every part on them is "made" in america. <hr /></blockquote>I know every part is not made in America, but there is much much more American manufacturing that goes into one than many foreign cars. The major metal components are from U.S steel, mined my U.S workers and forged in a U.S plant. The engine alone probably employs 500 workers before it is even installed. Some of the electronics would be what I would question as imported, other than that I can't think of much that would be imported.

Stratocaster · 07-14-2003, 08:26 PM

Yeah GM electronics are Mexican built saw the plant on tv. My superduty was signed off by Juan, no kidding. But my 87 f150 was Canadian assembled. The lines sure are blurry.Is there any pure US cars?

fish_on · 07-14-2003, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DanS:
You protect jobs by being the best at them, not through government protection.

.

.
Yes and a child manufacturing parts in China for $5/week is doing a so much better job than an American worker that they get the business. [img]graemlins/1zhelp.gif[/img] The scrap rates of Chinese manufacturing is huge, they get the contracts because labor costs are a fraction of ours, workers comp is nonexistent, and there is less need for a huge contingency of lawyers to fight frivolous lawsuits. If someone looses an arm in an accident they don't have to worry about millions of dollars in lawsuits, environmental issues are not on the front page of every news paper every morning telling people how bad manufacturing is and how it needs to be done overseas (out of site out of mind).

A German company that is a competitor of mine gets business by being able to beat our price. They can beat our price because of the huge subsidies that their government provides. Their product is of no better quality, they don�t have the field support, but some people insist in only looking at price when making a purchasing decision.

Our government better step up and protect American jobs before we become a retail sales based economy just trading dollars with each other.

BrionLutz · 07-14-2003, 08:39 PM

DanS,

Quote:

Could you name a source for these numbers, Brion?

You bet.

DanS on the number of sales and service jobs gained <grin>. If foreign mfg. lost them in the US due to Harley, the US mfg Harley gained them.

On the dollar numbers of $4B total for Harley Davidson and $1B of that export.

Harley Davidson Main Page Showing Successful US mfg selling overseas.

Harley Davidson Financial Data

Quote:

No free market? I guess if you're talking about government regulations and trade barriers and the like, you're right. But that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

But it means saying you are going to buy foreign good vs. US goods because you are being an economic "purist" is in error.

Quote:

In nearly all cases the consumer winds up worse off.

Not necessarily and remember US consumer also needs to be US mfg or she can't be the consumer. Ford not only provided the product but wages to allow workers to buy the product.

You'd have to provide a specific example. In case of some agricultural subsidies, I would agree, sugar and cotton are big agribusinesses that don't make economic sense and have very bad effect on the environment.

However, on a policy of maintaining self sufficiency and even export ability in agriculture, that is what the aim of US farm policy should be.

Quote:

You protect jobs by being the best at them, not through government protection.

That's a nice general principle and certainly Harley Davidson is a good example of that today. That would seem to make the case for judicious and smart govt' policy to keep US mfg. jobs.

Brion

ampersat · 07-15-2003, 05:34 AM

i buy american. i've never owned a new car and probably never will. when i buy a car, all the money goes to someone who lives right here. my last car was a nissan maxima but the guy who got my money lives in hillsboro.

if you buy an "american car" assembled in mexico, you're keeping the average jose in a job down there and the bulk of the profit ends up in america. if you buy a japanese car, you're probably keeping the average joe here or in canada in a job and the bulk of the profit ends up in japan. the real profit ends up at the corporate HQ, wherever that is. just because a vehicle is assembled in mexico doesn't mean they're getting much of our money. the whole reason cars get assembled in mexico is because it costs the corporation less to do it there.

DanS · 07-15-2003, 07:28 AM

Quote:

But it means saying you are going to buy foreign good vs. US goods because you are being an economic "purist" is in error.

It has nothing to do with being a purist.....it has to do with being a consumer. As a consumer, I want a quality product at a competitive price.

BTW....don't you think using HD's version of the bailout might be a little skewed? My International Economics book "The World Economy: Trade and Finance" by Yarborough and Yarborough tells a little different story. Saving a job at HD is admirable, but if you sell Hondas and lose your job because of the tariffs imposed on imported bikes, I'm sure your opinion might be different.

Of course, you're probably going to tell me that one job is more important than the other and it doesn't matter that consumers are almost always harmed by trade restrictions and tariffs.

Tilla · 07-15-2003, 10:56 AM

I just don't know.
So we have American branded automotive products made both north and south of the border. Then we have Toyota and Honda being made in the U.S. using American workers. Well not many workers, have you seen the production lines, robots and fixtures, someones gotta drive the vehicle off the line at the end, but not much more than that these days.
(have you seen the latest sawmills?)
My guess is that that Cadillac is assembled from parts made in Ireland, France, Mexico, Spain, Japan, S Korea etc. (there was a 60 minutes thing on this a while back) Even if they are buying from a US manufacturer, the products are being supplied are very likely made from facilities overseas. (U.S Steel, probably not, if they are the supplier, and what are they doing with a plant in Kosice, Slovakia?)
As an employee of a very large U.S. supplier who's market coverage has always extended to the automotive manufacturers for OEM and in plant usage, I can tell you that in 20+ years we have added 35+ countries that contribute to manufacturing capabilities. I am not saying that this is where everything comes from. But every year we have had to compete more on an international basis. And the buy American feeling slowly fades away.
I can honestly state that every major Oregon Employer/manufacturer (outside of the forest products industry) has a Japanese specification that I have to meet. They are first, I have to fight to get approved. The forest product industry has accepted many European manufacturers.
Anyway, the lines are fuzzy and things are not what they seem. Well, except that the Cadillac rides real nice!
Just my .02.

BrionLutz · 07-15-2003, 03:35 PM

DanS,

Quote:

It has nothing to do with being a purist.....it has to do with being a consumer.

Well...you had argued that by buying lowest cost/highest quality you were an agent of the market system.

It's a bit more complicated than that particularly when one considers that there is no "free market". You have apply all the factors.

What is the best purchase I can make that provides me with good value and supports my country's economy.

Certainly regarding cars, everyone should buy American at this point in time. Buying foreign at this point is mostly for status reasons, not economic or quality reasons. A few real reasons, buying hybrids from Honda or Toyota for example would be good to show US mfg. there is a market and to make the product.

Quote:

BTW....don't you think using HD's version of the bailout might be a little skewed?

I have no idea what Harley Davidon's version of the bailout is...I was simply relaying the economic numbers showing a healthy $4B company that is keeping $3B in the US, bringing in $1B in export dollars and providing thousands of good mfg and engineering jobs in the the US.

Quote:

...but if you sell Hondas and lose your job because of the tariffs imposed on imported bikes, I'm sure your opinion might be different.

And I'm sure if you lose your mfg or engineering or sales or service job at H-D due to subsidies etc. of Japanese importers you'd have another opinion.

What's best for the US?

I think saving and building US mfg and engineering jobs is key to US survival.

Brion

DanS · 07-15-2003, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Buying foreign at this point is mostly for status reasons, not economic or quality reasons.

Oh, Brion....pick up a Consumer Reports magazine and compare for yourself. US mfr's have a long way to go to reach the reliability, resale value, and level of ergonomics the Japanese and even European mfr's have. Disagree? Then prove me wrong.

What subsidies of Japanese bike makers are you speaking of?

Oh, and the reason a free market doesn't exist is that there are all kinds of people who think they are better able to decide what a consumer should spend his money on than the consumer himself. You are obviously one of them.

And your comment about status being a reason for buying a car cracks me up......especially as you hold HD in such high regard. What, may I ask, does an HD do better than a Japanese bike? Oh, that's right......they look and sound cool.

GutshotApe · 07-15-2003, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BrionLutz:
I think saving and building US mfg and engineering jobs is key to US survival.
Brion

Well folks...I agree with BrionLutz on this one. :shocked:

Of course, I include jobs in sawmills, papermills and specialty wood products mills among the American jobs worth saving & building...and I support proper management of forests (more jobs) to support those mill jobs to meet public demand for wood products. Not every acre needs to be used for commodity production...we have millions of acres setaside from logging already...but the remaining forests should be managed.

Oregon's forest soils are the world's most productive...they give our forest industry a natural economic advantage compared to just about anywhere else...despite the extra-cost environmental (FPA) restrictions imposed here that don't exist elsewhere.

Mr. Carp · 07-15-2003, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GutshotApe:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by BrionLutz:

I think saving and building US mfg and engineering jobs is key to US survival.
Brion

Well folks...I agree with BrionLutz on this one. :shocked: <hr /></blockquote>I am afraid I do to on this debate. I've been out of town and see the old Tillamook thread got shut down. Very sad...... :grin: Just Kidding

Well, at least we have Ford Trucks leading the pack. I want to see a foreign truck compete with the Super Duty.

fisherdan, In the early 90's and even late 80's, a lot of the trucks from ford were made up there. For awhile, all the Crew Cabs were made up there. Now they are made in Kentucky I believe.

TheRogue · 07-15-2003, 06:23 PM

My 2002 F350 CrewCab is "assembled" in Kentucky....wonder how much of it is Made In USA?

Don't see how we can ever compete with Canada in the timber industry, simply because of their subsidized timber. $5-$15 per thousand on the stump? That's INSANE..but that's what the Canadian government been selling it for!! If that's not subsidizing, I don't know what is. On top of that, they don't have to contend with the myriad of environmental laws and the American legal system, as litigation happy as we are today.

And when it comes to manual labor? Pretty tough to compete with that either, considering what the "developing" countries get paid per hour.

TR

1pump · 07-15-2003, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Certainly regarding cars, everyone should buy American at this point in time. Buying foreign at this point is mostly for status reasons, not economic or quality reasons.

Whoooooaaaaaa big fella.....I hate the idea of driving around in my girlfriend's Camry. It has no status (one of the most common cars on the road), it's as distinctive as your average fire hydrant (it looks like every other small 4 door) and it's Japanese.
BUT, she doesn't have a dime into anything other than routine maintenance, and after 80,000 miles it still drives like new. It even has the original Michelins on it, although they're getting a little thin.
It's about as exciting as a loaf of white bread, but you can't beat the quality, at least not in that price range.
Toyota is the most highly regarded car company on the planet(from a business and consumer standpoint), and for good reason. The Big 3 have known this for some time, and they still can't compete. It's not labor- most Toyotas are built in the US.

Mr. Carp · 07-15-2003, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 1pump:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Certainly regarding cars, everyone should buy American at this point in time. Buying foreign at this point is mostly for status reasons, not economic or quality reasons.

Whoooooaaaaaa big fella.....I hate the idea of driving around in my girlfriend's Camry. It has no status (one of the most common cars on the road), it's as distinctive as your average fire hydrant (it looks like every other small 4 door) and it's Japanese.
BUT, she doesn't have a dime into anything other than routine maintenance, and after 80,000 miles it still drives like new. It even has the original Michelins on it, although they're getting a little thin.
It's about as exciting as a loaf of white bread, but you can't beat the quality, at least not in that price range.
Toyota is the most highly regarded car company on the planet(from a business and consumer standpoint), and for good reason. The Big 3 have known this for some time, and they still can't compete. It's not labor- most Toyotas are built in the US. <hr /></blockquote>The key word in the last paragraph is CAR. Toyota doesn't compete with the Big 3 when it comes to trucks IMHO.....

BrionLutz · 07-15-2003, 10:21 PM

DanS,

Quote:

Disagree? Then prove me wrong.

That's too easy. Neighbor bought a new Porche 911 Cabriolet. 100 miles on it and the alternator went, leaving them stuck with a dead battery. Brought them home from the Porche dealer in my Explorer <grin>.

My Blazer had 110,000 miles on when I traded it in on my Saturn which had 89,000 miles on it when I traded it in on my GranPrix which had 74,000 miles on it when I (reluctantly) traded it in on my current Explorer.

Your opinion and anecdotes (or mine) are not something that can be proved wrong or right.

My point is that there is not much, if any difference, even according to Consumer Reports.

What small difference there is, up or down, is the price we pay for living here. I love the Civic Hybrid but I have to wait for the Ford Escape Hybrid.

Quote:

What subsidies of Japanese bike makers are you speaking of?

Japanese business and government are even more intertwined than in the US. They target industries and markets together (cars, motorcycles, computers, electronics, etc.) and it is a national, co-ordinated effort.

Quote:

Oh, and the reason a free market doesn't exist is that there are all kinds of people who think they are better able to decide what a consumer should spend his money on than the consumer himself.

Most of those people are business people who hate competition and naturally strive for a position of monopoly, no competition.

That was often acheived until the government stepped in, that was Teddy Roosevelt in the US.

Quote:

You are obviously one of them.

Certainly TR was one of my personal favorites a conservationist and someone who saw the role of government in ensuring a level playing field.

Quote:

And your comment about status being a reason for buying a car cracks me up.....

Haven't been watching many car ads <grin>. Cars are all about image and status.

Bottomline, with US mfg. jobs being lost, with US trade deficit at dangerous and record levels, folks need to think about what they buy. It has real consequences for them, their kids and the US.

Brion

GutshotApe · 07-16-2003, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheRogue:
Don't see how we can ever compete with Canada in the timber industry, simply because of their subsidized timber. $5-$15 per thousand on the stump? That's INSANE..but that's what the Canadian government been selling it for!! If that's not subsidizing, I don't know what is. On top of that, they don't have to contend with the myriad of environmental laws and the American legal system, as litigation happy as we are today.

You got it Rogue...the Canuck govt. almost gives their timber away...and they also assign huge blocks of timberland to individual companies further eliminating competition. We imposed increased tariffs on Canadian wood...they're still moaning about that...but the tariffs need to be higher yet to level the playing field. With a level field, our timber industry can easily compete, acre-for-acre, just about anyone's due to our natural competitive advantage...our rich forest soils. Canada's forest soils are rock and gravel...takes a long time to regrow a Canadian tree. We can do it much faster.

DanS · 07-16-2003, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Your opinion and anecdotes (or mine) are not something that can be proved wrong or right

Actually, resale value, maintenance costs, fuel economy, and level of customer service are pretty easily measured and if you think the big 3 are on a level field with many imports you are mistaken.

That's a funny story about the Porsche, though.......especially considering my wife had to drive the old 85 Volvo 740 to work because the fuel pump on her 2000 Tahoe went out. <grimace> And she's still making payments on the Tahoe.

US manufacturers CAN compete with any other workforce in the world......even without government protection. When the government prevents monopolies, they are protecting the consumer......when they enact tariffs and trade barriers they are protecting an industry and USUALLY harming the consumer. Don't confuse the two issues. <wink>

Cool Texan · 07-16-2003, 09:00 AM

What if we buy a pre-owned import from an American?!? Does that count for partial credit?

When looking for a car to replace my wifes 318ti, we didnt look at any domestic vehicles. They dont offer anything that we are interested in. I have my Durango, so we dont need another SUV.

Ford? Nothing exciting in terms of sedans.
Chevrolet? Even worse.
Pontiac? Would never buy one.
Saturn? No style/performance to them.
Oldsmobile?

Our "Top 3" list was a Lexus GS400, Lexus GS300, and a BMW 325. The GS400 is a bit too spendy for us, though it is a LOT of fun!! Nothing like seating for 5 and 0-60 in 5.9 seconds. Wheeeeeee!!!! In the end, it looks like we're going to try to get into a GS300. Have found Certified one in Tacoma, and just need to negotiate the price with the dealer guy. We drove my coworkers around town last night....oh what a niiiiiiiice ride!

And yes, in part we're buying it for its style and image. More so though we're buying it for its reliability (cant find anything ranked as high as it), performance and comfort.

Killertraylor · 07-16-2003, 12:23 PM

Brion -
I skipped most of the bantering back and forth, so excuse me if this has already been answered, but how did you find out that the Mercury 225 four stroke is actually a Yamaha? I've been thinking about upgrading to the Yamaha 225 four stroke from my 250 Yamaha Saltwater series and although I'd cringe every time I looked at the motor cover, I'd buy the Mercury if it was really a Yamaha and I could save a few thousand dollars.

Thanks.

Joe

Paddlefish · 07-16-2003, 01:42 PM

Determining the origin of an auto gets pretty tricky.

I work for an American subsidiary of a Japanese electrical connector company. We primarily make automotive connectors, which are used all over the world. One under-the-hood connector comes to mind.

Unlike most of our products, this one was designed in the U.S. We sell it, through our Southern California sales office, to a die cast factory in Liverpool, England, at which point it's matched with the mating connector, which comes from our Japanese parent.

Then, the finished casting assembly goes to an engine plant in Poland.

The completed engine finally goes to an Opel assembly plant in Germany. And Opel is owned by General Motors, right? :whazzup:

Cool Texan · 07-16-2003, 01:47 PM

Brion,

When the US companies make a decent sedan, we'll consider them. I'm not going to take one for the team with a car purchase just to help get the economy rolling. Doesn't add up.

Glad to hear your Pontiac has held up. I've known a lot of people who have had Pontiacs who regretted them.

BrionLutz · 07-16-2003, 02:45 PM

Killertraylor,

Actually...I think I read it on Ifish or when I was getting service on my...eek! Yamaha..so I could be operating on rumor.

A call to Stevens or another Mercury dealer would probably answer the question definitively..or maybe call one of the Yamaha dealers.

Quote:

I'd buy the Mercury if it was really a Yamaha and I could save a few thousand dollars

I'd probably pay the same or a little more for the Merc if it was US made and engineered.

Outboards are a perfect example. It used to be Johnson, Evinrude and Mercury. Now it's Yamaha, Honda, Suzuki and Mercury with Merc hanging on but it's toenails, no match for the big Japanese conglomerates.

Brion

fish_on · 07-16-2003, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cool Texan:
Brion,

When the US companies make a decent sedan, we'll consider them. I'm not going to take one for the team with a car purchase just to help get the economy rolling. Doesn't add up.

Glad to hear your Pontiac has held up. I've known a lot of people who have had Pontiacs who regretted them.

My 2001 Grand Prix had 90K on it when I traded it in January. Never opened the hood, changed the oil every 5k had the original brakes and original tires on it when traded. I even towed my boat with it never had 1 problem with it. My 2003 Venture van that was new in January has 21K on it now, not 1 problem. I worked as an ASE Master Tech for 5 years working on all makes and models. The imports had just as much problems as the domestic they were just harder to diagnose and more expensive to fix.

Help the ecomomy...buy from American manufactures

DanS · 07-16-2003, 03:06 PM

Brion,

I agree with the gist of what you're saying and I don't dispute that supporting domestic producers of durable goods can help our economy. It's just the WAY in which the government (and as you and others have mentioned, foreign governments as well) has chosen to "assist" some corporations that concerns me sometimes.

Mr. Carp · 07-16-2003, 04:54 PM

Me and many others would buy a Merc if they would run like a Yamaha. I am sorry, but I have been around a few from 1995's to brand new Optimaxes and they run like poo IMHO. Always having problems.

Now vehicles are another story. Buy from the big 3 if you want the best.

It is all about getting the best bang for your buck!!!

BrionLutz · 07-16-2003, 10:27 PM

Fish_on,

My GranPrix had 76,000...same deal...never a problem. I thought it was very high quality. Great performance and mileage, 30 mpg highway.

Brion

BrionLutz · 07-16-2003, 10:29 PM

DanS,

Quote:

It's just the WAY in which the government (and as you and others have mentioned, foreign governments as well) has chosen to "assist" some corporations that concerns me sometimes.

I don't think the US government does enough. Take outboards, I'd like to see a business/government policy to restore US to dominance in outboard motor market.

Brion

Mr. Carp · 07-16-2003, 10:35 PM

Brion, you sound like you aren't happy with your Explorer??? Mine has treated me well, but i am a poor college student and have a 1991. I don't know what year yours is. Overall, nice vehicles I believe.

BrionLutz · 07-16-2003, 11:15 PM

DanS,

Quote:

Actually, resale value, maintenance costs, fuel economy, and level of customer service are pretty easily measured and if you think the big 3 are on a level field with many imports you are mistaken.

Recent report on Customer Satifisfaction and Reliability had US mfg right in the hunt, some near the top. Many of the foreign mfg. at the top were the luxury cars, Lexus, Merc, which are pure status purchases.

At this point in time, I don't think you can point to any real justification for buying a foreign car.

With so many US industries gone, computers, consumer electronics, outboard engines, marine electronics, clothing, metal working, etc., I think we have to make a point of supporting US companies when we can.

Automobiles represent a big ticket item where we can have a significant impact. It is also one where we still have enough choices that Buying American is not really a sacrafice.

A 20% shift in market share to US car mfg. can pretty much eliminate the US trade deficit. That has a big stimulative effect on US economy. That can be done just on the status car market, leaving the more benign (but still foreign purchase) of Corolla and Accord "transplants".

Brion

BrionLutz · 07-16-2003, 11:22 PM

Cool Texan,

Quote:

When looking for a car to replace my wifes 318ti, we didnt look at any domestic vehicles.

Faced with a similar choice, I got a Pontiac GranPrix GT. Great performance, you can get the supercharged STP if you really want whiplash.

Performance and reliability were great. (Yes I know you don't like Pontiacs <grin&gt

It had cool stuff (Heads Up Display) that foreign did not.

No Buy American constraints I would have gotten the Audi Quattro turbo wagon.

In terms of status, eyup it's a sacrafice but I don't see how we can get US economy going if we aren't prepared to make even that minimal sacrafice.

At the end of the day, there is no free lunch.

Brion

DanS · 07-17-2003, 07:36 AM

Quote:

I don't think the US government does enough.

And I'm sure the Canadians think their gov't isn't doing enough and I'm sure the Europeans feel the EU isn't doing enough. And after a while we moan about subsidies of Canadian timber and Airbus aircraft while consumers around the world pay more due to the folly of market manipulation by governments around the world.

You'll have to excuse me if I don't get up and cheer...........

BrionLutz · 07-17-2003, 07:57 AM

DanS,

Never was, never will be a "free market".

Start with contract law. You can't really have an open, competitive market without contract law which is "government regulation".

US founders spent a lot of time on how government was going to promote commerce.

There are good reasons for regs and bad reasons.

Regarding government programs to help businesses from the US to Europe to Japan and China, you see the successful economies being the ones that had intelligent, aggressive industrial development policies.

Looking specifically at outboard engines, I'd love to see US gov't get involved in putting together US consortium to purchase Johnson/Evinrude and bring those mfg. jobs back to US and promote new 4 cycle line of products.

At the same time, help Mercury build a solid 4 cycle line.

Maybe use an R&D consortium (include motorcycle, ATV, automobile) to do the engine and mfg. technology.

We can't just sit back and let mfg jobs leave the US. We have to be proactive on building on what we have and bringing mfg jobs back to the US.

Brion

BrionLutz · 07-17-2003, 05:24 PM

Cool Texan,

Quote:

I've known a lot of people who have had Pontiacs who regretted them.

Funny how we all "know" folks who seem to confirm our beliefs <grin>.

Pontiac rates good on reliability and customer satisfaction.

Brion

Tilla · 07-17-2003, 06:40 PM

I've been staring at this part on my Mercury for a few days that says "Made in Mexico". I dunno. Maybe you better shop for what is best for you.

Cool Texan · 07-17-2003, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BrionLutz:
Cool Texan,

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I've known a lot of people who have had Pontiacs who regretted them.

Funny how we all "know" folks who seem to confirm our beliefs <grin>.

Pontiac rates good on reliability and customer satisfaction.

Brion <hr /></blockquote>You want names and addresses from my references, or do you just want to essentially call me a liar?

And yeah, Pontiacs are great cars...if you're renting them from Hertz. Otherwise, in my not so humble opinion the styling is garbage and the quality is as good as it can get for plastic. If you're happy with it, good for you.

fish_on · 07-17-2003, 08:37 PM

I would love to have a Lexus..I could trade it in on a good American made car. :grin:

Mr. Carp · 07-17-2003, 09:04 PM

I know some people too CT, Brion will probably call me a liar here in a few as well. <grin>

Pontiacs have never been that great from the articles I have read. Take the ever famous Pontiac Firechicken. :grin:

Steelheader69 · 07-17-2003, 10:02 PM

LOL I love these posts. I'm a proud American. But to say that you won't buy another countries goods is funny. Why would you do so? If they produce a better product, you'd buy an inferior product just to buy US? Ok, let's just say it this way. We are ONE WORLD! Almost NONE of us on this board can claim they aren't decended from some sort of competition overseas. And, some of us still have some sort of relative (be it a close or distant relative). I know I have relatives in Germany. Some could even be making some products that I buy. Also, should this mean I should NEVER go on vacation overseas? This means I'm pumping hard earned US dollars into their economies instead of ours.

Just get this into everyone's heads. If you supply a better product at a better price you'll get the business. I'd like to see who says they only buy US tackle. The majority of the reels are made overseas (unless you're a fly guy buying reels here). Also, alot of the points made go back and forth. There are foreign cars made here, and US made cars made OVERSEAS!!!! I spent time in the UK/Europe as a student and saw tons of fords I've never seen here. Should all of us drop Fords since they produce models with UK employees to make Ford products??? It's a buy and sell world. The only way to win if you're more expensive is to PROVIDE A BETTER PRODUCT AND SERVICE!!!!!! PERIOD!!!! Don't say it never happens. It does. It's arrogance that has lead to responses from others on this post. Heck, the US is the one's who originally got alot of the Asian plants in operation after WWII. We're the one's who got them on their feet. So, if anyone is to blame, blame us!!! The problem is, we sat on our laurels as being #1 while they dug in, worked hard (and yes, their workers do work hard) and make a top notch product. They key is for the US workers to fall in line. But too many look at a time clock instead of working on their product. I work with too many, and see alot in my job, that could care less about the product they produce. They care more for the paycheck and could care less what happens after their shift ends. To say this is uncommon, is far from true. I see more companies then most through my job. And a GOOD chunk are this way, especially in the trenches where it matters the most. So, before anyone complains, kick that worker in gear who's slouching or doing a shoddy job. That's how we're going to get more US made products bought here. I'm sure anyone who says they truly are buying all American should look around the room at their electronics. Chances are none are truly MADE in the USA. All are "assembled" from parts made overseas. Then the rest are all imported from.....

My spiel is over, I could go on and on and on. Until I was injured falling through a porch, I MORE then busted my but to get packages delivered on time, and help out other drivers who could care less about finishing their job. I pulled their slack so customers would be satisfied. Problem is, too many slackers who don't care. Get enough of those, and guess what??? You'll get more products being bought overseas.

BrionLutz · 07-17-2003, 10:44 PM

Steelheader69,

Quote:

I'd like to see who says they only buy US tackle.

I think I do pretty good in that regard, all Penn reels and US made rods from Loomis and Lamiglass. Luhr-Jensen lures and stuff.

I'd guess 80-90% of my gear dollars are in US made stuff.

Quote:

It's arrogance that has lead to responses from others on this post.

Economics actually. US is running huge structural trade deficits that will catch up to us eventually and hurt US economy now.

US mfg jobs and industry are being decimated and this has had and will have severe consequences.

It used to be that good mfg job paid a good wage so that a family could afford a single wage earner.

Now folks need to have both parents working and then get nailed for child care which cuts heavily into the 2nd income. Many of the jobs have no health care or pension benefits.

Many of the mfg jobs have been lost due to government policies and subsidized industries of other countries.

This is all bad for the US and we can do something about it by supporting US industry wiht our purchasing power.

Brion