Minimum funding levels, or use what you got?

TheRogue · 07-11-2003, 05:38 AM

The Oregon Legislature, as expected, is completely deadlocked with no end in sight on the main budget bills...healthcare, education, and public safety.

One group feels that a minimum service and funding level must be established, and then do whatever it takes to come up with the $$.

The other group feels that it's better to look at the available money projections, and figure out what to pay for from there.

What's your opinion?

TheRogue · 07-11-2003, 05:44 AM

I personally believe this state is long due for an in-depth look at it's priorities. Not quite sure how we'll handle it considering the insane metro-rural divide we have here...it's become quite obvious that what's most important to a Portlander is often not on the top 20 for someone from, say, Burns. And, it's getting worse rapidly, no thanks to the radicals of both parties that are getting elected.

My personal priorities?

1. Education
2. Public Safety
3. Transportation
4. Environmental (F&W, DEQ, etc.)
5. Health Care (seniors, minors, disabled ONLY)

If you accomplish #1, then #2 becomes much less of a drain...an educated public is a much safer public.

TR

Cool Texan · 07-11-2003, 12:00 PM

My $0.02 is that Minimum Funding is a terrible idea in the presence of a budget deficit. It will lead only to new taxes at some point.

Live within the means, and prioritize spending. If that means that our governor must drive a slightly older SUV, so be it.

BrionLutz · 07-11-2003, 12:18 PM

CT,

An example of what I'm mean...the governor is not driving a new SUV...a new "waste, fraud and abuse" urban legend is born.

If you read the news article the State Police are driving a new SUV vs. a new CrownVic or whatever.

But this bit of irrelevancy is taken so seriously by folks that they'll defund their kid's education over it...or more correctly use it as an excuse to defund education (put your priority here).

To put things in perspective, the additioinal tax "bill" to fund the budget was about $100 for someone making $75K, less going down, more going up.

Just pay the bill.

If anyone thinks they know where to save money, then get involved in that area and make it happen but spare us the "principles" and the wacky "hostage" taking.

The current problems is that no-tax, anti-gubmint ideologues are in a box. They know there are no real savings, no "waste, fraud and abuse" but they can't just pay the bill so we play out this embarrassing and costly charade.

Brion

TheRogue · 07-11-2003, 01:16 PM

Brion, you're exactly right. For me, education $$ means fully funding public schools and their infrastructure. For others, it means funding voucher programs, or complete tax deductions for home schooling. For many, public safety means more prisons, for others, it means more rehab programs. Transportation spending means more roads to many, but means mass transit and vehicle pollution tax credits to others. Etc., etc.

Yes, we've been backed into that "box" you're talking about. Note my reference to the "radicals" of the parties. Not that they're actually that way, but they had to make concessions to the radical components (ultra conservative more so than ultra liberal) to get elected. Look at Ron Saxton. He was the Rep front runner, doing well in the polls...but wouldn't kowtow to the ultra-conservative right...so he lost the primary to someone who had no real shot at winning the Governorship, Kevin Mannix (even though it's amazing he did as well as he did, Kulongoski should've actually paid attention to the race, instead of bowling!!). I would've voted for Saxton, even as a registered Dem....

I voted for the tax increase, and I'd vote for another one. I agree, again...you want it, pay for it, otherwise, quit whining....go live elsewhere, there's lots of other states with budget problems as bad or worse than ours, they just put their education system higher on the priority list, and haven't made it into Doonesbury.

TR

BrionLutz · 07-11-2003, 04:52 PM

TheRogue,

Quote:

Note my reference to the "radicals" of the parties.

I don't buy the "nobody's really responsible" argument.

Blame for the mess sits squarely with the Republican segment of the Legislature that promotes the anti-government, anti-tax, waste-fraud-abuse line.

You see the same deal at the national level, you've go straight shooters like McCain who says to belly up to the bar and then you've got the ideologues who refuse to pay to play.

Anyone who had to sit in Salem during the fishing and hunting license fee hearings and listen to Donna Nelson knows it.

It was the perfect example. This person went on and on about all the "waste" at ODFW. Of course, she could not cite a single example but she wasn't going to support a "tax increase" to fund ODFW, hatcheries etc. Go on to each issue and it's the same thing. There are no real "savings" from "waste" they can point to but they just can't accept the reality that it costs money.

Brion

[ 07-12-2003, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: STGRule ]

Cool Texan · 07-11-2003, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BrionLutz:
TheRogue,

Blame for the mess sits squarely with the Republican segment of the Legislature that promotes the anti-government, anti-tax, waste-fraud-abuse line.

Brion

That's amusing. You're kidding, right?

As for the SUV, the article referenced in the other thread clearly says he is getting a new $31k Tahoe. Its irresponsible.

Prioritize and spend...cut what you cant afford. Its simple math.

[ 07-12-2003, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: Cool Texan ]

BrionLutz · 07-11-2003, 07:24 PM

CT,

Quote:

As for the SUV, the article referenced in the other thread clearly says he is getting a new $31k Tahoe. Its irresponsible.

Typical, no one reads the details they just react ideologically and then go into defense mode when they have to face the facts.

Quote:

So instead of purchasing that car they traded it in on a new Lincoln Towncar, which is being leased through Ford.

Gov is in a Lincoln. Lease was up, reup with a new...that's how leases work no cost diff.

Quote:

The state police protection unit, the bodyguards for the governor, requested the SUV backup vehicle for traveling with the governor and they picked out a Chevrolet Tahoe.

State cops in a Tahoe. A CrownVic or a Tahoe...Tahoe makes more sense.

To confuse the above with a real issue is an example of the problem with "waste, fraud and abuse".

Quote:

Prioritize and spend...cut what you cant afford. Its simple math.

Eyup and all done. Now it's time to pay and that is why the ideologues are stuck and holding everybody hostage.

Their ideology doesn't fit even their fantasy much less the budget reality.

Brion

[ 07-11-2003, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: STGRule ]

STGRule · 07-11-2003, 07:49 PM

I have edited a couple of posts in this thread and I am going to tell you why. In previous threads some have skirted the edges of the AUP. As the discussion progressed the skirting came closer and closer until finally somebody steps over the line and gets edited. Then the chorus rises about why previous items that were close didn't get edited. I am going to draw the line very firmly here. No name-calling, no labeling, you will refute the idea and not the person. You will not post anything that you wouldn't mind your grandmother, child, priest, and fifth-grade teacher to read. We are going to start off this way so nobody can "complain" about the moderating.

If there is a problem please limit the complaining to e-mail. Thank you.

BrionLutz · 07-11-2003, 11:47 PM

TheRogue,

Are those "personal priorities" representative of the "metro" or "rural" divide that you say is the problem?

My guess is that most Oregonians would have very similar list of priorities for what they want the government to do.

The old cliche about the devil is in the detail applies.

In general everyone is against "waste, fraud and abuse" but when they actually get into the details, it disappears; translating the high level "in depth review" into low level hard details.

A good example on Ifish would be the ODFW budget. As fishing folks, we look at it and see it cut to the bone. Others look at it and think the whole ODFW could be cut. Spending millions for hunters and fishermen to go play...puleeze.

I think folks have put themselves into a ideological box. The "guvmint" is "waste, fraud and abuse" (except for what I like) and I won't pay for it until they "reform".

The thread about the governor's new car is a perfect example. Lease is up, anyone who's had a lease knows that you roll into a new one. No cost change. The Tahoe vs. a CrownVic for the State Police security guys? No real price difference and the Tahoe is obviously better suited for the job. Thinking it's a real issue is silly but totally typical about current mental "box" folks have put themselves into vis a vis gov't.

Education topped your list and probably tops everyone's list. Anyone involved in the nasty details knows there is no real "waste, fraud and abuse" and that we probably need to spend a lot more on infrastructure, teacher salaries, number of teachers to get class size down, pre and after school programs, etc. but voters in all but a few districts turned down funding primary education.

No business is going to move to a state where education for employees kids is underfunded.

I'd be willing to bet that everyone on Ifish will spend 10 times more on going fishing than they would have spent on the ballot initiative income tax increase...heck they probably spend more on internet access to get on Ifish.

Get involved in the actual spending decisions. Do your best to make it as efficient as possible. Pay the bill and get over it.

Brion

skein · 07-12-2003, 06:49 AM

Brion, Rogue, I agree with you 100%, but the real answer is GET OREGONIANS BACK TO WORK!

We can't continue to accept the "Made in China" label on every product we buy. We can't tolerate any more manufacturing moving off-shore just so some CEO can show a better bottom line to his board of directors.

When was the last time Nike made a shoe in Oregon? Have you bought a Kershaw knife lately? Check out where it was actually made. Leupold is pushing its Wind River line which is "imported." I could go on and on.

At least the state police didn't buy a Toyota Land Cruiser.

Our legislators need to worry about getting people back to work - then the other problems will be a LOT easier to work through.

Skein

GutshotApe · 07-12-2003, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by skein:
At least the state police didn't buy a Toyota Land Cruiser.

Not this time, maybe...but both state and federal agencies have been known to buy foreign-made rigs.

You're absolutely right...the USA needs to recover some of our lost manufacturing base and lost jobs. If we are going to have a tourist-based economy in Oregon, people (potential tourists) in the other states need those jobs!

Anecdote: About 20 years ago, during the height of the Cold War, the Oregon Dept of Forestry equipped all it's Forest Practices Foresters with an evidence kit...including a 35mm camera...for use on suspicious fires, FPA violations, etc. The genuises at state DAS purchasing bought the foresters Russian cameras..."they were low bid"

. Not only were the Soviets our enemy, but their cameras were bona fide ***. Lens quality was poor, workmanship was poor, and most of 'em had broken and were unusable within a year. Meanwhile there were, at the time anyhow, several good US-made cameras available...but now, most of those jobs have moved to China...along with so many others. :depressed:

BrionLutz · 07-12-2003, 09:14 AM

Skein,

Quote:

We can't continue to accept the "Made in China" label on every product we buy.

Stay out of Walmart <grin>.

I've been on a Buy American kick since I started traveling overseas for biz...the 1980's. Looking for clothing not made overseas is tough. Electronics you are stuck though you can buy US labeled like Dell or HP or IBM. I bought Raymarine vs. Furono for the boat but made in UK. Only the kicker is foreign made, Honda. Would have gotten the Merc but they couldn't deliver.

I always look at the labels.

Unless gov't policy changes, I don't think what I do makes a difference but I feel better doing it.

Quote:

Our legislators need to worry about getting people back to work - then the other problems will be a LOT easier to work through.

I agree but State government is a bit limited in what it can do. Recession is not really due to anything Oregon government did.

I like the idea of doing the tourism advertising, good use of tax dollars.

Offering breaks to that Danish windpower company to setup shop in Portland (1,200 mfg jobs) is a good use of tax dollars.

Best thing Oregon government can do is make state look fiscally responsible and to have well financed schools.

When I was getting recruited to come to Oregon the big pitch was the environment and outdoor stuff. Nobody was concerned about tax rate.

Brion

fish_on · 07-12-2003, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by skein:

We can't continue to accept the "Made in China" label on every product we buy. We can't tolerate any more manufacturing moving off-shore just so some CEO can show a better bottom line to his board of directors.
Skein

This is the problem facing funding in American right now. Look back a few years ago when "times were good" them manufacturing sector was booming. Manufacturing is the only way to bring new dollars into our economy, if we import too much is just becomes a money exchange. To manufacture a part out of say 303 s.s just to get that part cut on the bandsaw at the machine shop, at least 100 people have made been involved in the production and sale of the steel, the badsaw blades, and the measuring equipment. If you import that same piece of 303 even if it is not machined overseas it takes no less than 100 persons wages out of the tax structure and therefor lessens the funds avaiable to the states and people. Bring manufacturing back to the U.S repeal NAFTA and you will see all the states money problems go away.