Driver's Retesting IT HAPPENED AGAIN!!!!!

TheRogue · 07-11-2003, 05:17 AM

This was a horrible accident...we went through there about 1/2 hour before it happened last night:

Pedestrians hit by car

And, as it turns out, the driver was a 91 year old man. I have nothing but respect for the octogenarian+ crowd... but, at what point have reflexes, eyesight, etc., deteriorated past being safe to drive? It's something that comes up every now and then, and generally the AARP and other groups squash even any constructive debate. As the overall population continues to age, this issue will not go away...it will just continue to grow.

TR

EDIT: SEE POST ON THE BOTTOM OF THIS TOPIC!!

[ 07-16-2003, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: TheRogue ]

The Fishing Geek · 07-11-2003, 05:34 AM

Why wait that long? I say from 50 on, every five years, or after a major medical event like heart attack or stroke.

The problem is that you'd have to raise licensing fees to pay for additional testing, and people are traditionally against such ideas.

greenbuttskunk · 07-11-2003, 07:19 AM

I totally agree, when a driver reaches a certain age, say 70, testing should occure. I know this spot when this happened and it seems to me the 91 year old driver was obviously confused. Hell, I'm only 40 and I get confused when I drive. I feel for the victims and family, as well as the driver.
The guilt he carries with him.
At some point an aged drive takes on some of the
driving disabilities of someone DUI. It's just plain crazy to think that anyone can continue to drive amongst the general public with decreased
eye sight, decreased reactionary skills, the the clear thinking capacity to make split-second decisions. I'll pay extra for license fees if I have to, to know the driver next to me is safe to operate a potentially deadly weapon.

OceanBlue · 07-11-2003, 07:28 AM

YES! I have always believed that after a certain age, a driver should take a drive test to renew their license.

A very elderly gentleman pulled out of a driveway right in front of me. Instead of hitting him, I managed to swerve in time and instead, clipped an oncoming car. Had I hit him, I'm sure it would have killed him. (he drove on without stopping to check on us, by the way).

I also stopped to assist with a 95 year old man who had fallen asleep at the wheel and hit a telephone pole at 45 mph. He lived to tell his story. I'll never forget what he said to me while we were waiting for the ambulance. He said, "It was bound to happen sooner or later." When I asked him what he meant, he said, "I fell asleep. I knew it would happen sooner or later."

Now this is not to say that all seniors are a hazard. I think possibly a doctor could waive the driving test. But yeah, that's one I could support.

Cool Texan · 07-11-2003, 07:36 AM

I've 16 year olds do the same things though. So we should restrict them from driving till their 21. Also, I've seen a lot of bad women drivers. We should put them under more intense testing as well. And dont get me started on the Vancouver drivers....(yes, this was sarcasm)

Point is, all age groups, all genders, all areas have bad drivers who make mistakes. To single out elderly is age discrimination. Argue all you want, that is what it is.

That said...I wouldnt be opposed to 100% to frequent testing of the elderly. However, it would have to be applied to all citizens.

Okie · 07-11-2003, 07:39 AM

Cool Texan; I agree with you, Your a smart Texan. From a Okie

TheRogue · 07-11-2003, 07:52 AM

Sorry, there are definite PHYSICAL and BIOLOGICAL reasons for testing the elderly that do not apply to other age groups.

Unfortunately, ignorance, stupidity, and hormones apply to all age groups, but there's no way to legislate out that.

Yes, I understand that the PRIVILEGE of driving is one of a person's last links to a "normal" life as they age, but the simple fact is that as eyesight, hearing, coordination, reflexes, and the brain's ability to process all of it slows down, the risk to the public goes up.

I feel it is an OBLIGATION of the family to closely monitor our aging family members, and to step up and make sure the driving is halted when it is time...we did so with my grandmother after several of us decided she was too scary to ride with.

However, lot's of those who are nearing that place in time where the ability to drive is becoming impaired either don't have the local family, or they won't do their family duty; hence the need for testing.

TR

Cool Texan · 07-11-2003, 08:58 AM

TR, I understand your argument, and there is part of me that agrees with you on that logic. However, its still called ageism, no matter how you want to dress it up. Age is causing bad driving, and the same is true for teenagers.

That aside...physical and biological...ok, here's a few for you:

Should we also test people who have a family history of strokes? I have heard of many stories where an individual has a stroke while driving, with bad results.

What about diabetics? I have also heard of seizures during driving, so should we more rigidly test diabetics too?

I have glaucoma, which means that at some point my vision may be imparied. Does that mean I should be more rigidly tested so as to ensure that my blind-spots have not worsened, thus making me a hazard on road.

If you are going to change the rules, it must be consistently applied.

2LEYS · 07-11-2003, 09:23 AM

I have always been for retesting the elderly. And maybe every 5 years isn't enough. We have all seen how quickly an elderly person can slip.

Maybe it can be up to a doctor to mandate when a person needs to have a driving test. Even for someone with glaucoma. All they have to do is call the DMV and you will have to go in or they revoke your liscense.

I think theat keeping the roads as safe as possible is more important than being fair.

Now when you first get your liscense there are restrictions. I am not positive but they go something like this....You can not drive at night. You can't drive with more than one other teenager or something like that.

There are already restrictions for teens so why not for elderly?

I think that every one should be retested the way most people drive. I mean how hard is it to use your blinker? The driving test is a joke. I took my driving test in a town with 1200 people in it. That gave me the liscense to drive in rush hour on a Los Angeles freeway.

I drove around town for 10 minutes got on the freeway and then off the freeway. Congradulations you can drive!!

lost_sailor · 07-11-2003, 09:33 AM

I say yes. Good point though that it means more bureaucracy, and lots of folks hate that - - so it should just be a free-for-all?

Perhaps a re-test at 60, 70, 80 ... if you think you can still drive after 80, take a test for every renewal.

Birdnest · 07-11-2003, 12:59 PM

I always worry when I seen a 50' motorhome with grandpa at the helm.

Cool Texan · 07-11-2003, 01:21 PM

I get more concerned when I see a Mustang GT with a 17 year old behind the wheel.

The Fishing Geek · 07-11-2003, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by crabbait:
TFG - 50??? Come over here where I can reach you, boy! I'll show you a thing 'er two about 50! Dang know it all children we gotta put up with!(Rant, rant, etc, etc) 50!!
:tongue: :grin:

Sometimes it takes a couple hours of trolling before you catch one. :grin: Looks like I caught me a feisty one!

fish_on · 07-11-2003, 02:15 PM

Seems like every week you see a story of some older person running through a building and saying �I don't know how it happened I had my foot hard on the brake� [img]graemlins/stupid.gif[/img] I also think you should have to have a CDL to pilot one of those motorhomes towing a car, or any motorhome over 25'.

GutshotApe · 07-11-2003, 02:51 PM

My mother, who is 81, started driving again after my dad died last year. She drove when I was a kid but probably had less than 1000 miles behind the wheel in the last 25 years. Her car (my dad's) is a semi-hot '99 Chevy Monte Carlo with 4 exhaust pipes.

I told her to sell the car and call a taxi when she needed to go somewhere...but my sister encourages her to keep driving so as to maintain a sense of "independence". I know her ability to drive is much decreased now due to age, and independence or not, I don't like to think of her out driving around. She drives only in town, to familiar places, and only during daylight. But, its not a good thing. :depressed:

Tilla · 07-11-2003, 06:46 PM

I almost had a heart attack just now! I actually agree with CT, maybe, just maybe, there is something actually cool from Texas! :shocked:

1pump · 07-11-2003, 07:26 PM

Both my parents are in their mid-80's, and still drive. But they're very much aware of their limitations. They don't drive at night if they can avoid it, and if somebody else is available (like me or my sisters) they let somebody else drive.
A few years ago 4 friends of theirs were involved in a vicious head-on collision on the Parks Highway near Nenana, AK, while on vacation. 5 people were killed instantly, including 2 German tourists in the other car. One female friend of my parents survived, but due to the trauma she couldn't recall what caused the accident. The AK state troopers suspected the driver of the car she was in either fell asleep or had a heart attack and crossed the center line.
When my parents came to AK to visit me I took them to the accident scene (it was about a month later).
My mom surprised me by saying it was "ridiculous for people our age to be driving on bad roads like that. There's no way in hell we'd do it." She went on to posthumously berate their friends for driving all the way up there from Portland when there was plenty of tour opportunities geared towards older people.
Too bad she was a little late. :depressed:

crabbait · 07-11-2003, 11:17 PM

TFG - 50??? Come over here where I can reach you, boy! I'll show you a thing 'er two about 50! Dang know it all children we gotta put up with!(Rant, rant, etc, etc) 50!!
:tongue: :grin:

Seriously, some people are impaired with age. I don't know if we want the expense (not to mention the DMV lines!) of testing all elderly citizens.

I have been involved in a couple of "interventions", one when we took Grandpa's keys away and another when I called in a license plate and described the driving I had witnessed. It took two phone calls but action was taken.

It is a fine line. A lot of elderly have nothing left but their independence and do not know how they will survive if they are denied mobility to get the things they need from the store. This is a mobile society and, for much of it, public transportation is sorely lacking.

I understand the predicament of the old. Running over people, however, is not an option.

[ 07-11-2003, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: crabbait ]

DanS · 07-15-2003, 08:37 AM

Quote:

What about diabetics? I have also heard of seizures during driving, so should we more rigidly test diabetics too?

Uh, every time I renew my license I have to bring a not from my doctor saying my diabetes is in good control. I don't think it's too much to ask.

Driving is a priveledge, not a right. Your vision, depth perception, and reaction time all degrade with age. Calling it age discrimination is a cop-out.

Woody · 07-15-2003, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Driving is a priveledge, not a right. Your vision, depth perception, and reaction time all degrade with age. Calling it age discrimination is a cop-out.

BINGO, What we need to be looking at here is the degree of impairment. We have laws in this country restricting people from driving while intoxicated, why, because drugs and alchohol affect your judgment, reaction time, vision, etc, which makes you a danger on the road. I don't care about grandmas independence, if she can be proven to be a danger on the road, she shouldn't be driving.

Killertraylor · 07-15-2003, 12:42 PM

Well said, Woody. I'm not sure exactly what happenned with the 91 year old, but my heart sure aches when a mother and baby die - that was a terribly sad story. My grandma is 96 and still drives to the store and back once a week in Kansas. She has a 1976 Buick that has less than 12,000 miles on it. We've tried to get her to sell it and get her groceries delivered, but she could probably drive the 1 mile blindfolded having lived in the same house for 50 years. It still scares me though that some folks have licenses when their mental and physical faculties have deteriorated to the point they are a danger.

Okie · 07-15-2003, 03:39 PM

Accidents and death on the highway is going on every week. At least two or three people are killed every week in Oregon. Less than two percent are caused by older persons. Safe driveing should always be the top priorty any time you get behind the wheel of a car. But I believe no matter what is said the deaths will continue and that is sad. People will always think it will not happen to them, it's always the other screwball behind the wheel who is at fault.

Okie · 07-15-2003, 03:46 PM

Ac.

[ 07-15-2003, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: Okie ]

DanS · 07-15-2003, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Less than two percent are caused by older persons

Which is meaningless unless you know the percentage of drivers which are elderly.

Okie · 07-15-2003, 04:00 PM

The information is on the accident reports filled in Salem, Oregon.

Mr. Carp · 07-15-2003, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cool Texan:

And dont get me started on the Vancouver drivers....(yes, this was sarcasm)

You think people in Washington drive bad because you were taught in Oregon and you just really don't know any better. You guys didn't even have drivers training.....

(This is just sarcasm as well :grin: )

Woody · 07-15-2003, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Accidents and death on the highway is going on every week. At least two or three people are killed every week in Oregon. Less than two percent are caused by older persons.

What percentage of the population do you suppose drive drunk and kill people? I have no idea. The point is, the percentage is irrelevant. Too many people are killed by drunks and too many people are killed by the someone whos capacity to drive has been diminished by age.

[ 07-15-2003, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: Woody ]

Cool Texan · 07-15-2003, 09:19 PM

I was taught in Oregon?!?

Cool TEXAN....Oregon... uhhh.....

:grin:

Mr. Carp · 07-15-2003, 09:31 PM

Cool Texan: I realized that, but decided to go for it anyway.

They have cars in Texas????????

As far as restricting older drivers, 50 is too young in my opinion, but I would say starting at 70 do testing to see if the driver is fit to operate the vehicle. IF they have certain limitations, but shouldn't have the privledge completely revoked, they should put it like a CDL endorsement on the license. Like no night driving or no freeway driving or something like that.

My Grandpa was a farmer and was driving himself to the feed store and drove the hay truck for his farm righ up until the day he died at 85 years of age. He was a better driver than a heck of a lot of the people out there today. When someone drives tractors and trucks for 70+ years, they get pretty good at it. He also knew his limitations and would ask us to drive him if he wanted to go to Portland or something. He was a smart man and granted not a lot of people have that kind of ability or common sense.

If I was an old man and someone took my license away, I'd just buy a tractor and do what I needed to do with it. I know several of a couple of old people who do just that. They drive the tractor to the store to get groceries and things because they govt. took away their license. You can move right along with a good tractor.....

STGRule · 07-15-2003, 09:41 PM

I think it really ought to start at age 16. Every 10 years you have to take both the written and the practical. Laws change, prove you know them. Ability changes, prove you can do it. Sixteen, 26, 36, 46, etc.

Mr. Carp · 07-15-2003, 09:55 PM

That is not a bad idea at all STGRule, but I doubt that a law like that would ever get passed.

Cool Texan · 07-16-2003, 10:12 AM

Carp, it would probably have an easier time than to just start it in the 60's due to ageism. I know I know I know, its different blah blah blah. However, its in the same notion as a level playing field. A teenager is just as likely to mow down pedestrians as an old person is...or a diabetic having a seizure, or someone having a heart-attack.

Mr. Carp · 07-16-2003, 10:38 AM

Cool Texan, you bring up a good point about the age discrimination.

We might be on to something here, now it is just the matter of making it stick...

The Fishing Geek · 07-16-2003, 02:17 PM

In Santa Monica, California today a driver reported to be in his 80's plowed through a farmer's market, injuring dozens and killing eight.

Cool Texan · 07-16-2003, 02:56 PM

In Lillington, NC today (or yesterday) a teenager was killed following a single car accident.
http://www.sanfordherald.com/article...ews/news04.txt

Last Saturday a truck driver suffered a seizure while driving, causing a 6 car accident.
http://atlanticville.gmnews.com/News...Board/017.html

And in April, one person died and 3 were injured when a driver had a heart attack, lost consciousness, and ran over a woman and her daughter.
http://www.komotv.com/news/printstory.asp?id=24066

What's your point Geek? That we should test EVERYONE more stringently, right?

lost_sailor · 07-16-2003, 03:15 PM

Cars should be illegal.

Stratocaster · 07-16-2003, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Cars should be illegal

Yeah, or a background check and a 14 day waiting period.

Problem solved.

TheRogue · 07-16-2003, 06:25 PM

Oh lord, it's happened again!!!!

88 year old kills many, injures more.....

The Fishing Geek · 07-16-2003, 06:50 PM

Really?

Mr. Carp · 07-16-2003, 09:18 PM

Like CT said before, it is not only old people that have these accidents. Let's not make it sound like that even though they have been the majority as of late.

Okie · 07-16-2003, 10:08 PM

I am sorry to hear about any automobile accident. So I try to think safety all of the time but being human we all make mistakes. to blame one group over another will not solve this problem of automobile accidents. There really isn't any age group that is safe from having a accident.
There is one vehicle that hasn't been discussed and it is the bicycle. I see them on highway 10l where the shoulder is not wide enough to accomadate them and they are in real danger of being hit by a car. Often there is a double line and it is technically illegal to pass them when there is a double line. There fore you should slow down to their speed. (Which no one does.)

So when in danger or doubt run in circles and scream and shout.

2LEYS · 07-17-2003, 12:52 AM

Peoplw keep bringing up age discrimination. Well that is B.S.

When is the last time the police found a sober teenager wondering 200 miles away from home, lost, and unaware of who they are or where they are. You here stories of elderly people driving up a freeway offramp the wrong way and never realizing it till the last minute or just yesturday an elderly person crashing through a crowd of people.

GutshotApe · 07-17-2003, 05:32 AM

From today's Eugene R-G:

Head-on crash on I-5 injures two

A California couple were injured when their van collided Wednesday morning with a truck hauling a trailer of hot asphalt on I-5 near Goshen.

Louise L. Laxton, 72, and her husband Clarence, 75, of Sanger, Calif., were both in serious condition at Sacred Heart medical center in Eugene later Wednesday.

State police said it appeared that Louise Laxton was driving the wrong way in the southbound fast lane of the freeway about 4:10 AM. Her Ford van crashed head-on into the truck...........

The truck driver was uninjured and the Laxton's injuries were considered non-life-threatening. No citations had been issued as of press time although the accident remains under investigation.

Cool Texan · 07-17-2003, 06:15 AM

YOu guys are right. I have changed my position. I know also believe that ONLY old people cause car accidents. THank you for helping me see the light!

I hope you're picking up the sarcasm, cuz I'm laying it on kinda thick. :smile:

2LEYS · 07-17-2003, 06:49 AM

CT,

How many 70+ drivers are on the road? Not very many. And of those, how many drive on the freeway? Even fewer. Then look at your 2% of accidents caused by elderly. Then maybe you can see the difference.

And what about the way Oregon has restrictions on first year drivers? Is that right? Why should they have more restrictions? That is age descrimination. Right?

You can't deny the fact that the elderly (in gerneral) have slower reflexes, poor hearing, poor eyesight, poor split second judgement ect. ect.

A person with epilepsy can not get a drivers liscense. Why? Because they could have a seizure.

There are plenty of elderly that are fully capable of driving till they die, but there are also a lot of them that can't see over the steering wheel let alone dodge a piece of freeway debri at 65 mph in thick traffic.

Woody · 07-17-2003, 07:26 AM

I'm going to back off of the age thing a bit. I don't want to be perceived as discriminating against the elderly. I've heard many examples of elderly drivers who have been driving for 50 or 60 years and haven't so much as a speeding ticket. My point is, if someone, anyone, has a proven, measurable condition that impairs their abilty to safely drive a car, they should be restricted from doing so. In the case of the elderly, it is proven that their faculties begin to diminish at some point. Doesn't it make sense to track that and establish some bottom line at which they would be restricted?

[ 07-17-2003, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: Woody ]

GutshotApe · 07-17-2003, 09:02 AM

I once flew in a Bell 47 helicopter with an 81-year-old pilot in the coast range mtns in foggy, rainy weather. And I flew in similar conditions in the Cascade foothills in a Jet Ranger helicopter piloted by a 75-yr-old. So, I don't automatically consider older people automatically incapable of flying...or incapable of driving a car, either. But I think pilots are tested frequently (annually?), regardless of their age. Drivers should be frequently tested, too...all of 'em 16 to 96.

Cool Texan · 07-17-2003, 09:28 AM

2Leys,

Diabetics can drive...and they can have seizures.

Its age discrimination...call it what you want, but that is what you are calling for.

ampersat · 07-17-2003, 12:30 PM

hey lost sailor:
"cars don't kill people, people kill people" (couldn't resist the NRA party line there)

it's sad but true that people die from car accidents all the time. we, as a society, do what we can to mitigate that risk. DUI is illegal and we revoke people's licenses all the time for impairments. i think what those in favor of a change in the laws in this thread are looking for is a framework that provides guidelines for doing so.

i'd recommend that we make it part of the medical community's sphere of influence. when i go to the DMV, there's always a hoard of people there. do i really want to see more folks there because we're testing healthy people to see if they're fit to drive? when the elderly visit their doctors, the doctor should be able to make the decision whether a person is fit to drive. this also goes for people of all ages. there are many illnesses, syndromes and diseases that impair mental and physical ability. most of them have their good days and their bad days and i would venture to say that a person afflicted with a chronic illness will pick their "best day" to go to the DMV to renew their license.

boater · 07-17-2003, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 2LEYS:
A person with epilepsy can not get a drivers liscense. Why? Because they could have a seizure.

who told you that epileptics cant get a drivers license ? that is not true

TheRogue · 07-18-2003, 05:35 AM

CT...

Then, by your wording, you're saying that being 21 to drink, 18 to vote, 16 to get your license, is all age discrimination??

Mandatory age limits for new recruits in the military (varies by branch, 29-33 years)....must be age discrimination??

I know, you'll say, but the minimum age limits are because of youth, mental capacity, and physical limitations....but aren't the last two what we're talking about here??

TR

Lepper · 07-18-2003, 08:33 AM

Everyone is a little different and some people might not actually need any testing until they are well above 50, (for those of you that are sensetive about your age) But some people in there 50's shouldn't be on the road and the only way to check that is to have a mandatory exam of some sort for everyone over a certain age. They can call it the old fart test.. :smile: (j/k)

and on a more serious note, Since guns kill people and cars also kill people.. let's ban them all....

Cool Texan · 07-18-2003, 09:14 AM

Heard on the news today that they claimed that older drivers (50-75 I think) have a better track record than teenagers. They did admit that it changes after age 75 though. Just thought it was intersting to hear that.

[ 07-18-2003, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: Cool Texan ]

Mr. Carp · 07-18-2003, 09:37 PM

I think that everyone should have to pass a test when they re-new their license each time. It is obvious to me every time I head to Portland that people still haven't mastered or figured out how to actually drive a car or comprehend the rules of the road.

I completely understand sometimes why people get road rage. [img]graemlins/stupid.gif[/img]

[ 07-18-2003, 10:40 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Carp ]

07-18-2003, 11:28 PM

Had a very close call yesterday while returning from the Cowlitz. An elderley driver swerved into my lane and if I had not reacted and avoided him then you might be reading about me

Mr. Carp · 07-20-2003, 05:31 PM

I seen this while browsing and thought I'd post it even though I don't think you should single out old drivers

http://www.koin.com/webnews/20033/20030718_crash.shtml

Thumper · 07-20-2003, 06:45 PM

OK, I am getting older too at 62. The elderly (over 65) should be tested after any accident or ticket. That would keep the costs down yet test those who need it most.

fish_on · 07-26-2003, 08:39 AM

My dad was just involved in a minor accident when a 80+ year old driver just pulled out on the road and hit im in the side. He saw what was going to happen, slowed down, and even tried to get over far enough that she wouldn't hit him. After the accident the driver didn't even acknolage here had been an accident, just went on telling him about how he lived in the same town she was born in. The husband in the car acknolaged the accident and said he had bad eyes and couldn't drive and that she SHOULDN'T still be driving. No one was hurt but now the truck has to be fixed. Retest each year after 70.

snowball · 07-26-2003, 09:13 AM

I had an older gent(50+) pull out in front of me 2 days ago, causing me to lock up my breaks, spill coffee and drop my cell phone, not to mention the cigarett that fell from my other hand burned a hole in my driver seat. Dang elderly drivers. Not to mention, I'm now driving a Bus just to feel a bit safer with all the soccer moms and dads driving SUVs. Whatever happened to fuel economy? Do these folks with SUV really go off road? questions questions questions

Mr. Carp · 07-26-2003, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by snowball:
Do these folks with SUV really go off road?

I would almost bet money that 90% of them have never been in 4x4 let alone offroad. When snow and ice comes around, it is kinda silly to me to see these folks who have never had 4x4's before upside down because they think they can go 90 mph on ice and snow.

[img]graemlins/stupid.gif[/img]

A 4x4 only gets you going a little better and give a little better traction for engine braking.