Cougar population out of control

[2LEYS]

http://espn.go.com/outdoors/conserva...4/1563298.html

Cougar enters kitchen with a feline meal

Associated Press

BEND, Ore. — When Linda Bertolani left her front door ajar for her Himilayan cat, she got another feline visitor — a full-grown cougar.

The cougar sneaked into her kitchen Sunday night and let out a high-pitched scream, Bertolani said. He had her 16-year-old cat, Sebastian, in his mouth.

"You should have seen Sebastian's fur flying," Bertolani said.

The cougar dropped Sebastian, ran from the house and vanished over a fence before the police and the Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife got there. Sebastian is recovering at home.

Corey Heath, a Deschutes Wildlife District biologist, said no other cougars have been spotted since Bertolani's call. The last time a cougar showed up near Bend was three weeks ago in the Deschutes River Woods.

Cougar sightings are fairly common in Central Oregon, but reports of attacks on humans are not, Heath said.

Homeowners who feel imminently threatened can legally destroy the animals during hunting season — Jan. 1 through May 31, and Aug. 1 through Dec. 31 — if they have a hunting permit with a cougar tag, he said. A cougar may also be shot if it kills livestock.

Heath said people should not run if they encounter a cougar, but instead try to scare the animal away by making noise, throwing rocks or waving a coat in the air.

Wildlife specialists say cougars, bears and other wildlife increasingly come into inhabited areas as human encroach on areas where the animals have always lived.

[BrionLutz]

2Leys,

To be entirely accurate, your title should have been Human Population Out of Control.

Brion

[24 on/ 48 off]

That would definately give me a "code brown".

--spud-- :smile:

[greenbuttskunk]

Brion,
well said my man!

[OceanBlue]

This was a topic a few weeks back and I'm still curious as to how the woman got the cougar to drop her cat. It's also really strange that the cougar effectively returned the kitty to his very own home. I'm also curious about whether Sebastian was injured and what his injuries were.

The whole thing is freaky.

[Cool Texan]

Originally posted by 24 on/ 48 off:
That would definately give me a "code brown".

--spud-- :smile:

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">

[2LEYS]

BrionLutz and greenbuttskunk

Have you guys been "fixed" yet in order to stop overpopulation? If not quit complaining.

[MasterCaster]

Homeowners who feel imminently threatened can legally destroy the animals during hunting season — Jan. 1 through May 31, and Aug. 1 through Dec. 31 — if they have a hunting permit with a cougar tag, he said. A cougar may also be shot if it kills livestock.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I find this kind of funny, I guess if we feel "imminently threatened" when they are out of season we are screwed. What a joke ANY wild cougar that so much as steps foot in a house, camper, tent, ect. should be killed. If I ever saw one do it I wouldnt hesitate at all. It would be one dead cat. I dont care if it is just acting like an animal. Once they are not afraid of a human its only a matter of time before they hurt or kill someone.

Flame away if you must but thats my .02

Jon :smile: :grin: :smile:

[greenbuttskunk]

2leys,
Apparently I stepped on your toes!
I'm making a simple reference to the last 2 lines in your post:
Wildlife specialists say cougars, bears and other wildlife increasingly come into inhabited areas as human encroach on areas where the animals have always lived.
And no, I have'nt been "fixed". I have a little boy due next month. I'll raise him to respect wildlife like I do, like my dad taught me, and his dad taught him. In simpliest terms, I don't believe a wild animal should be terminated because man has decided to plant himself in the animals original domain.

Just MY 4 bucks!
God, you gotta love this kind of forum! :grin:

[ 06-13-2003, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: greenbuttskunk ]

[2LEYS]

buttskunk,

I see what you are saying, but we has humans, with supperior minds have a duty to keep populations in check. And the fact is, that the cougar populations are at dangerous levels right now. Check page 25 of 82 on the link below.

http://www.dfw.state.or.us/ODFWhtml/...%20Summary.PDF

In 1992 there were 151 cougar complaints and only 3 that posed a threat to humans or pets. 2002 those numbers jumped to 846 and 23.

Cougars can not effectively be hunted without dogs or bait. Even before the ban the success rate on cougars was 36%. Post ba the success rate is 0.7%. I know all of those hunters are not targeting cougars but with that many tags you think the success rate would be higher.

[Thumper]

I think that the cougar was simply returning the kitty to its rightful owner. I'll bet Sebastian sleeps rather fitfully these days.

[BrionLutz]

2leys,

Have you guys been "fixed" yet in order to stop overpopulation? If not quit complaining.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I wasn't complaining about the cougar population increase. I think it's great stuff.

I was just pointing out that you misnamed the thread title since the problem is too many people wanting to live in cougar country not too many cougars.

Brion

[Tempered Steel]

Even before the ban the success rate on cougars was 36%. Post ba the success rate is 0.7%. I know all of those hunters are not targeting cougars but with that many tags you think the success rate would be higher.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Part of the reason the success rate has dropped so dramatically is that after the ban the prices of the cougar tags dropped and a lot more people started buying them just in case they happened to see a cougar while hunting for deer or elk.

Having said that, there are definately more cougars in this area than I would like to see. My line of work puts me in contact with ODFW employees on a regular basis, and I have been told that since the ban the population of elk in the Wenaha unit has gone from over 4000 to just over 1100. The population of cougars has gone up by about the same ratio. This makes sense to me because I fish regularly in this area in the winter months, and don't see nearly the number of elk I used to.

There have also been a lot more sightings near populated areas on the east side. Most of the towns over here have not grown much in the last 30 or 40 years, so the "people taking over cougar territory" arument doesn't really hold water.

A cougar was killed in the oldest part of Baker City a couple of years ago. I'm talking downtown out of a window of one of the oldest hotels in town.

My dog chased a big tom cougar out of a brush patch in 2000 while we were hunting pheasants in a alfalfa field just outside of town. This same area was a great deer hunting area 5 years ago, but now it is barren.

A lot of people create their own problems with wild animals, but the ban should be lifted in MHO.

[Lovestafish]

MasterCaster, I'm with you. In this case I think it'd be better to beg for forgivness than ask for permission. There is no season on safety. Here's a visual for you; a cougar has your kid cornered, you have your rifle at the ready and wouldn't ya know it, the season doesn't start until tomorrow! Darn, and I liked that child of mine, too! I don't think so...

[2LEYS]

The entire North West is "cougar country" so if you live in the North West then according to your logic you are the problem. You really honestly believe the cougar population is not out of control?

These problems are happening in areas that have been inhabited for years. The cougars are coming to the people.

[ 06-13-2003, 11:05 PM: Message edited by: 2LEYS ]

[Stratocaster]

I can honestly state that in SW Washington it is not a problem. Aside from one cougar contact on the Kalama. I do believe its more of a problem east of the mountains in Washington. Last fall quite a few were taken by deer and elk hunters that stumbled upon them.

[drhall99]

The cougars are going to get us?
How many of you have actually seen a cougar in the wild? Probably less than 5% (just a guess). If one comes into your kitchen, then it is definitely "rug" material. Otherwise, the odds of ever having a significant encounter are probably higher than being struck by lightning.
There is a huge number of bears in Alaska but people learn to deal with them (without shooting every one that comes into range). I'm sure that we can learn to deal with the cougars without eliminating them.

JMO,
D.

[2LEYS]

How do you guys feel about killing deer and elk? Good right, because we eat them. What about sea lions? A lot of the people on this board want to "control" the sea lion population because they prey on salmon. Well the cougar prey on deer and elk and there populations have been dwindling since the ban on dogs. How do you guys feel about killing prairie dogs and sage rats? We don't eat them but if they wern't hunted then the populations would explode.

So unless all of us dreaded humans go away and live on the moon we need to keep widlife populations in check. For years and wiped out or nearly wiped out species. Now they have to be managed in order for humans and animals to live in peace.

And the chances of running into a cougar in the wild are increasing. And so are the "signifigant" encounters. The deer and elk populations are dropping so the cougars are getting hungrier. Watch...someone will lose a kid to a cat.

For god's sake bring back the dogs.

[ 06-13-2003, 11:37 PM: Message edited by: 2LEYS ]

[MasterCaster]

We had never had an encounter with a cougar until the ban on dogs and bait. Now almost every season some one in my family sees at least one during their buck hunt above Prineville and we have had them right in camp at night during our elk hunts.

I have personally only seen one and it was right on the outskirts of the main part of Prinville itself going through a pasture. There were kids playing in the front yard across the street less than 100 yrds away.

They need to lift the ban and soon.

Jon :smile: :grin: :smile:

[Straydog]

"Lions, tigers and bears, oh my!!"

We are so good at working ourselves and others into scared frenzies. I just don't get it.

Some wring there hands at the limitied likihood of a couger attack yet probably think nothing of putting their kids in a car and hitting the freeway or letting there kid walk around downtown or sending them to the toy department while they shop.

So many want to make the wild animals the culprit and take for granted the dangers we place our kids in daily and the most cunning, mean spirited, kill or harm for fun predator there is, our fellow man.

2ley, tell the Grizzly Bears and Timber Wolves how benevolent and what a good care taker of the natural world man is when it comes to predator managment.

[ 06-14-2003, 07:01 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[willametteriveroutlaw]

There is a definate increase in the cat population. I have seen atleast one every year I have hunted in eastern or (last 4 years). That from people reporting never seeing them previously. I killed one within 10 miles of battleground WA a few years back as well. The problem is that the masses, which have no real idea predators or predator management, make unedcuated decisions based on a misleading ad campagn put on by wackos (peta, humane society etc). The bigger problem is that the we still allow the unedcuated masses a say in wildlife management at all. Oregon is rapidly turning into a colony of California.

[sliverslinger]

cougar makes great jerky! Bring back the hounds and we can take care of the population explosion!
When we had ours we treed approx 4 a year and about 6-8 bears per year. We did not kill everyone of them. some of them we took photos of then left them. It is a great sport. If you disagree, then you haven't tried it.

[Mr. Carp]

Fisherdan, I was just wondering if you live in the city or a rural area of SW. WA. It does make a difference in everyones perspectives.

This was a big debate earlier if you search the threads. Someone's goat was killed and we argued back and forth until we were blue on this issue. Go back and look for yourself.

IMHO, I am with MAsterCaster. There will always be animal rights activists/people of the strong enviromental persuasion who will disagree and that is fine. They will talk about how it is wrong to kill an animal as such, but I bet like Lovestafish said, most would react different when they have to wear another man's shoes. Everyone has a right to their opinion. It just doesn't mean it is the right opinion. :grin:

[Silver Hilton]

I think a piece that has been missed in this debate is this: Cougars feed on deer. Deer thrive in edge habitat, such as the edges of fields and civilization. Since the deer aren't hunted as much around the edges of town, there are more of them, and they are fatter and tamer. If you are a cougar, where are you going to try to live? Obviously, where the easy pickings are. So it's a bit simplistic to say that we have moved into the cougars' habitat. We have, in fact, created prime feed pickings for them, and it shouldn't be surprizing that the population moves to take advantage of this habitat.

I live in some of this edge habitat. I saw a cougar run across the road recently near here. They're around. In general, I'm fine with that. However, if I see a cougar in my back yard, and it doesn't display the proper fearful attitude, population adjustment will take place. This is another of those situations where the general case of the hunting laws being good does not take into account the specific circumstances of the children in my neighborhood. I'll pay the ticket if necessary.

There I go, showing my casual regard for the law again. (private joke for a couple of the conservatives) :smile:

[Kruechief]

"lions, and tigers, and bears, oh my..."

KC, foung this critter a little bothersome, but now the critter has been "managed."



Krue :grin:

[Stratocaster]

Fisherdan, I was just wondering if you live in the city or a rural area of SW. WA. It does make a difference in everyones perspectives.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I live in Longview, have lived in both rural areas and in the city. Ive also hunted all over Cowlitz, Lewis and Skamania counties and have only seen one, back in 1988. If you look up WDFW data youll notice that a super majority of encounters have been east of the mountains here in WA.

[Mr. Carp]

Nice Cat Krue!! [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

[BrionLutz]

The entire North West is "cougar country" so if you live in the North West then according to your logic you are the problem.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I don't see any problem. Go cougars! You were the one complaining about a "cougar population" problem.

I simply pointed out the facts.

1. Cougar population is way down from original numbers and range.

2. You misnamed the thread, the real issue is "human population out of control".

Brion

[Straydog]

Originally posted by Silver Hilton:
Since the deer aren't hunted as much around the edges of town, there are more of them, and they are fatter and tamer. If you are a cougar, where are you going to try to live? Obviously, where the easy pickings are. So it's a bit simplistic to say that we have moved into the cougars' habitat. We have, in fact, created prime feed pickings for them, and it shouldn't be surprizing that the population moves to take advantage of this habitat.

I live in some of this edge habitat. I saw a cougar run across the road recently near here. They're around. In general, I'm fine with that. However, if I see a cougar in my back yard, and it doesn't display the proper fearful attitude, population adjustment will take place.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">This is what was missing from this discussion, the fact that we are, if you will, enabling the cougars to become more of a problem and more importantly, a sensible approach to dealing with that.

There is a big gap between "the only good cougar is a dead cougar" and "if one dosen't display the proper fearful attitude........".

I just came in from watching my daughter play down at the creek with her new dog. Knowing there are couager in the area I scanned the woods and perimeter often and paid attention to what was going on around her. She knows how to respond if she were to encounter a couger and that there is a possibility of that happening. However, we do not pack everywhere we go nor have the attitude that we need to hunt and kill the cats we know range through our property.

When we saw them last they hauled tail outta here as soon as they saw us. They displayed they were more fearful of us than we of them and I don't consider them as much a threat as driving through town.

[ 06-15-2003, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[2LEYS]

Fact:

1.) Cougar population is way down from original numbers and range.

Correct. So are the populations of salmon, trout, deer, elk, buffalo, prarie dogs, grizzly bears, wolves, black bear, and every other animal there is.

People came and messed things up. So we now have regulations and laws to manage animal populations.

Should we have to manage the populations? In a perfect world no. But this world is far from perfect so we need to.

Fact #2)Cougar populations have become out of control since the ban on dogs. You can not logically deny that fact.

I am not talking about someone living in the boonies running into a cougar or even losing a pet. I am talking about cougars being seen near towns and cities, around schools and play grounds.

With the populations of deer and elk and other cougar prey in decline the cougar are getting hungry. And what better food than a tasty young child?

[BrionLutz]

2leys,

Should we have to manage the populations?

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Absolutely! Human population control is very important but that will get us into sex education, birth control, etc. and makes cougar topics look tame &lt;grin&gt;.

Hysteria over a decimated cougar population is silly. There are very few attacks. Health and safety concerns would be better spent worrying about West Nile Virus or MonkeyPox.

Good to see cougar population making very small gains. So much of it's habitat has been destroyed.

Brion

[lost_sailor]

I've been fishing, hiking, and camping all over Oregon for 44 years and have never seen a cougar. They're completely out of control !!!

[ 06-16-2003, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: lost_sailor ]

[lost_sailor]

Granted, I don't do much camping in West Salem.

[willametteriveroutlaw]

Its real great to see the cougar population growing. In fact its even greater to see our mule deer and elk herds decling due to increased predation. If you have no real expirience with cougars and just sit in pdx thinking how nice it is to have cats around, theres a lot of us who have news for you. Seeing them in the woods is not cool, I know of atleast 2 ifish members who have shot them in self defense. The wenaha herd of elk have lost 75% of there population due to cat predation, in the last 4 or 5 years. Go ahead and play armchair biologist.

[hntngirl]

The cougars are going to get us?
How many of you have actually seen a cougar in the wild? Probably less than 5% (just a guess). If one comes into your kitchen, then it is definitely "rug" material. Otherwise, the odds of ever having a significant encounter are probably higher than being struck by lightning.
There is a huge number of bears in Alaska but people learn to deal with them (without shooting every one that comes into range). I'm sure that we can learn to deal with the cougars without eliminating them.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I have hunted the same area of the Cascades for years and had never seen a cougar until the ban went into effect. Now I see at LEAST one every year. I personally know a guy who shot a large female from less than 10 feet away. She was coming towards him and even after he turned, she had no intention of stopping. No one is suggesting that we "eliminate" them, but their numbers do need to be effectively managed.

In simpliest terms, I don't believe a wild animal should be terminated because man has decided to plant himself in the animals original domain.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I know several people who are having problems with cougar on their land. Unless there are some 50-year-old cougar out there, I can guarantee these people were there first.

Bring back the hounds and we can take care of the population explosion!
When we had ours we treed approx 4 a year and about 6-8 bears per year. We did not kill everyone of them. some of them we took photos of then left them. It is a great sport. If you disagree, then you haven't tried it.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Agree! And another benefit was that even those cats not killed developed a fear of man. Man was seen as something to avoid. Not anymore. Increasingly, man is seen as just another large game animal.

By passing the ban on dogs, the only effective way of hunting cougars was removed. Their only real predator was made vastly less effective. Cougar numbers will increase. It follows that all creatures below them will be effected. Deer and elk numbers are dropping and will continue to do so. As that happens, cougar will expand their territory in search of food to support their growing numbers. This doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out.

Don't get me wrong. I love seeing cougar in the wild. But they need to remain in the wild. And their numbers need to be controlled.

I'm new here, so I'd like to take take this opportunity to say "Hi!" :smile:

[Lured In]

From ODFW...http://www.dfw.state.or.us/south_wil...rinfo_alt.html

Living With Wildlife
in Cougar Country

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Cougars live the most of the in most of the forested parts of Oregon. These large predators have lived here for thousands of years, preying mostly on deer and elk and playing an important role in the ecosystem.
Follow the link below to find more information pertaining to the Lane County area, which is similiar to the state's current status. Lane County Cougar


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You probably live and/or recreate in areas where cougars live. Incidents of cougar predation on livestock, pets and even attacks on people have been well publicized. With an understanding of cougar behavior and by taking some basic precautions, we can minimize conflicts with these magnificent animals. You can help educate others about cougars. Share this information with friends and neighbors.

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Cougar Status
The legal status of the cougar, also sometimes called mountain lion or puma, has evolved through several stages since Oregon was first settled by immigrants.
Early pioneers saw these animals as a threat, and rewards or bounties were paid for cougars beginning in 1843. By the 1960's, cougars were eliminated from much of the state, and it is estimated that only about 200 cougars remained in all of Oregon.

The Oregon legislature repealed the State bounty system in 1961, and in 1967 changed the status of cougars to a "game mammal" regulated by ODFW. Through protection from excessive persecution, cougar populations began to increase to the present population estimated at roughly 3800 animals.

Cougar hunting has been used to manage populations to minimize depredation on domestic animals and to minimize human safety problems. From 1967 until 1994 all hunting was by controlled hunt permits with very conservative permit numbers. In 1994 the use of hounds to hunt cougar was prohibited. Since 1994 a general season was established for cougar with a quota set as a maximum allowable harvest. Without the use of hounds, hunters have not come near to harvesting the allowable quota. Damage problems and safety concerns have increased dramatically in recent years.


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Physical Appearance

The cougar's scientific name, Felis concolor, means "cat of one color." They usually appear uniform in color and vary from tawny to cinnamon or dark brown. Adult males are generally about seven feet long from nose to end of tail, and average about 130 pounds. Adult females are approximately six feet long and average about 90 pounds.
They have a long, black tipped tail which measures approximately one-third of their total length. This long tail makes it easy to distinguish a young cougar from a bobcat. The bobact, Oregon's only other native wild cat, is smaller than an adult cougar, and has a tail that is only a few inches long.


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Tracks and Signs
In an unhurried walk, cougars usually place the hind paw in the imprint made by the front paw. They have four toes with three distinct lobes present at the base of the heel pad. An average sized cougar makes a track about 3-1/2 inches wide and 3 inches long. Generally, claw marks are not visible because their claws are retractable.
The cougar is a solitary animal. Adult males almost always travel alone. If tracks indicate two or more cougars traveling together, it is probably a female with kittens.

Cougar feces is often covered by soil, leaves and other debris that is scraped from an area of about three feet in diameter. Cougars also create smaller scrapes, often with urine on them, to mark their territories. They also leave claw marks on trees. All these marks signal to other cougars that this area is occupied.

Cougars are usually silent, but have calls similar to an ordinary tomcat, but much magnified. They have a shrill, piercing whistle, scream ( a blood-curdling mating call), hiss and growl.


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Habitat

Cougars occupy nearly all of Oregon. Highest densities occur in forested areas and/or forested rimrock, but they also exist in lower densities in open sagebrush habitat. Generally they concentrate where prey species are most abundant. In recent years, as cougar populations have grown, young cougars have been establishing territories in agricultural areas and in close proximity to residential areas.
Cougars wander far and wide. An adult male's home range often exceeds 100 square miles. Females range over smaller areas, up to 65 square miles. Size of the home range depends on the terrain and how much food is available.


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Hunting and Feeding Habits
Cougars are most active from dusk to dawn, although they sometimes also travel and hunt in daylight. Cougars prefer to eat deer; however, they also may hunt and eat elk, porcupines, small mammals, and occasionally livestock or pets.
Cougars take their prey by ambush rather than by long pursuit. They stalk, using available cover, then attack with a rush, often from behind. The kill is usually made by a bite to the neck or back of the skull. The carcass is generally dragged to the cover of nearby trees or brush before feeding. After feeding, cougars usually cover up any remains with soil, leaves and sticks. With larger prey, cougars often remain in the vicinity and continue to feed on the carcass for a few days. Generally, the carcass is moved and re-covered after each feeding.


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Mating and Breeding
Female cougars become sexually mature when they are about 2-1/2 years old. A female in heat makes frequent sounds and leaves scent that attracts males. After a male is attracted, the pair are together for up to three days and will breed several times.
Breeding can take place throughout the year, but most females give birth between April and July, following a 3-month gestation period.


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Birth to Maturity
The female gives birth to an average of 2 to 3 young, called kittens. She usually chooses a secluded spot beneath an uprooted tree or a rocky depression. Care of the kittens rests solely with the female. She defends them aggressively against male cougars, which may kill them.
Newborn kittens are about 1 foot long and weigh about 1 pound. They are covered with blackish-brown spots and have dark rings around their short tails. The young stir only to nurse until they are about 2 weeks old, when their eyes open and they become alert and playful. Weaning occurs at about 2 months.

Kittens learn hunting skills through play and exploration, and by watching their mother. When the young are about 6 weeks old, she begins taking them to her kills to feed.

As the kittens mature, their spots fade. At 6 months, they weigh over 30 pounds and are becoming capable hunters. Kittens remain with their mother for another year, improving hunting skills.


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Living with Cougars
The number of cougar encounters is increasing in Oregon, because both the cougar population and human population are increasing in number and distribution. More people are using hiking and running trails in cougar habitat, and there is a greater awareness of the presence of cougars. Cougars have proven to be very adaptable and, in many areas, are living in close proximity to people.
Cougars are generally quiet and elusive. They usually do very well in avoiding people. They are curious and may occasionally, as house cats often do, observe people and activity from nearby hiding cover, or even follow people. As cougars become more accustomed to people, some cougars are becoming bolder and allowing themselves to be seen more often.

If you live where there are cougars, the following simple precautions can help you avoid problems:


Avoid feeding wildlife, especially deer, which can attract cougars when concentrated.
Keep your pets under control. Roaming pets are easy prey. Bring pets in at night. If you leave your pets outside, keep them in a kennel with a secure top.
Keep livestock in enclosed sheds or barns at night when possible, especially when a cougar is known to be in the area. Close doors to all outbuildings, since inquisitive cougars may go inside for a look.
Make lots of noise if you come and go during the times cougars are most active--dusk to dawn.
Install outside lighting, especially in areas where you walk, so you can see a cougar if one is present.
Remove dense brush that would provide hiding places for cougars near your house, especially around play areas or livestock pens. Make it difficult for cougars to approach unseen.
Build a woven wire or chain link type fence around play areas. Cougars can jump most fences, but fencing can interfere with cougar's ambush style of hunting.
Supervise children when they play outdoors. Make sure children are inside before dusk and not outside before dawn. Talk with children about cougars and teach them what to do if they meet one.
Remember, cougars have huge home ranges. One reason for this is that prey animals that know a cougar is in the area become very wary and difficult to catch. Cougars are always on the move so that they can hunt unsuspecting prey. If you become aware of a cougar in your area, chance are that within a few days it will move on and be miles away.


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Close Encounters
People rarely get more than a brief glimpse of a cougar in the wild. Cougar attacks on people are rare. Since every attack situation is different with respect to the cougar, terrain, the people and their activity; patterns of attack behavior and response are difficult to identify. With this in mind, the following suggestions may be helpful:
When you walk or hike in cougar country, go in groups and make plenty of noise so that you don't accidentally surprise a cougar. A sturdy walking stick is probably a good idea--it can be used to ward off a cougar. Make sure children are close to you and within your sight at all times. Talk with children about cougars and teach them what to do if they meet one.
Do not approach a cougar, especially one that is feeding or with kittens. Most cougars will try to avoid a confrontation. Give them a way to escape.
Do not run from a cougar, since running away may stimulate the instinct to chase. If you have small children with you, protect them by picking them up so they won't panic and run. Back slowly away until you can leave the area.
Maintain eye contact with the cougar. Do all you can to appear larger. Flair your jacket, stand up straight, wave your arms. Do not crouch down or bend over, since this may appear to simulate prey. Speak firmly in a loud voice. You want to convince the cougar that you are not prey and that you may in fact be a danger to it.
If the cougar behaves aggressively, throw binoculars, your lunch, or anything else you have available, at the cat. Pepper mace spray is also a possibility for discouragement.
In the unlikely event that the cougar attacks, fight back. Use your walking stick, rocks, or fists to strike the cougar. Many attack victims have successfully fought of the attacking cougar.
Keep in mind that although cougars can be dangerous to people, more people are killed by deer, bees, dogs and spiders than by cougars. Statistically you are much more at risk of getting hurt in a car accident by driving to the mountains (or grocery store) than by being attacked by a cougar in the mountains.


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Depredation Problems
Provisions in the law allow landowners to kill cougars that have killed, or are in the act of attacking, pets or livestock. Landowners are limited to their own property for damage control actions. Preventative control where there is not an immediate threat, is not allowed. Help is available ( in most counties) to control livestock depredation through the U.S. Department of Agricultural (USDA) Wildlife Services (WS) program. Although WS does not do preventative control, they can help to minimize losses through efficient removal of animals that become livestock killers. Remains of kills should be left undisturbed in order to provide WS the best chance of taking the depredating cougar. Call ODFW for more information about the WS program or about the laws regulating take of cougars.

Follow the link below to find more information pertaining to the Lane County area, which is similiar to the state's status.
Lane County Cougar


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Report All Problems
It is important that problems and encounters with cougars are reported to your nearest ODFW office. This information is needed to determine how much of a risk individual cougars pose to people, pets and livestock, and what the most appropriate response should be. For urgent problems outside of business hours (i.e. Monday through Friday 8 am - 12 pm/1 pm - 5 pm), contact the Oregon State Police or Sheriff's Department.

[willametteriveroutlaw]

Welcome Hntngrl,
Got a story?

[STGRule]

Lured In: Now THOSE are some facts. Thanks.

[ 06-16-2003, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: STGRule ]

[2LEYS]

Welcome Hntgrl, you made it huh? Glad to see ya.

I have read the dfw stuff too. That says that the population is growing, and the encounters are growing. So what does the dfw page tell you? That the numbers are at the right level?

I have a theory. The forests are extremely thick with underbrush do to the reduced logging and putting out forest fires immediately. That plays right into the cougars abilities. Abush. The deer and elk do not stand a chance. They get stuck in the underbrush and do not have as much explosiveness to get away from a explosive cougar in thick brush. The cougar just sits and waits. You have seen pictures of BIG healthy cougars being killed. They are wiping out the deer and elk.

We need to increase selective logging and burning out the underbrush. Thank god we have Bush as president who listens to the people who know about forest management instead of liberal city dwellers who havn't seen a tree outside of central park.

[ 06-16-2003, 09:31 PM: Message edited by: 2LEYS ]

[Straydog]

2leys,

Have you considered that past logging has encouraged the growth of underbrush by leaving open space due to clear cutting rather than lack of logging encouraging the underbrush?

Have you considered that the reduction of logging and clearcuts are also at least part of the reason the deer and elk numbers are on the decline?

Might it be that clearcuts and other false habitat introduction due to logging actually created a false population base of both deer and elk?

[BrionLutz]

hntngirl,

Unless there are some 50-year-old cougar out there, I can guarantee these people were there first.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Hmmm...according to ODFW:

These large predators have lived here for thousands of years, preying mostly on deer and elk and playing an important role in the ecosystem.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Guess the cougars were here first. So what does your guarantee pay?

Brion

[2LEYS]

Yes I do think that the populations are on the decline because of the reduction of all logging not just clearcuts.

I like small clearcuts off of main roads. I think they do wonders for animal habitat.

If you think about it there are not many natural clearings left. All of the natural clearing are full of planted trees cities and houses. Clearcuts represent some of the only clearings left. So we are creating clearings by clearcutting. The elk were historically plains dwellers and we pushed them into the mountains when we arrived.

The undergrowth occurs reguardless if the land has been clearcutted before. It just naturally gets burned out every now and then. But since we rush and put out every fire as soon as it starts we are again disrupting nature. Now as we can see from last year, the underbrush is so thick we have no choice but to put it out asap because it turns into an inferno so quickly.

And Bush said he would open up the national forests to selective logging and controlled burns. Go Bush!

And Brion, where do you live? If you live on earth then you are taking an animals home.

[ 06-16-2003, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: 2LEYS ]

[STGRule]

This is my favorite fact:

Keep in mind that although cougars can be dangerous to people, more people are killed by deer, bees, dogs and spiders than by cougars. Statistically you are much more at risk of getting hurt in a car accident by driving to the mountains (or grocery store) than by being attacked by a cougar in the mountains.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">And my gosh, eating deer and elk? How dare they do that.
If you want a nice, safe, sanitized nature, go to the zoo. But be careful of the drive there. Don't get stung by a bee and don't get bit by a spider. On second thought, you better just stay home. (Although they do say most accidents happen in the home...)

[2LEYS]

STG and Brion

What are your veiws on seals and seal lions? Do they need to be controlled?

[STGRule]

2LEYS: You didn't read much before you started posting did you?

I'll let Brion answer for himself.
I am what you would call a "flaming liberal", tree-hugging, fish eating, deer eating, elk eating, keep-our-noses-out-of-nature-as-much-as-possible, sturgeon biologist.
We did a poor job of animal management up until now and I vote we mitigate the damage WE did first. All predators (cougars, sea lions, and man included) kill and eat things. Animals have been doing it for a few thousand years longer than humans. Sorry if I don't cry tears over all of "your" animals that they eat.

[2LEYS]

OK let me clarify. I think that the state of the forests (overgrown underbrush) are detrimental to the deer and elk herds. I think it aids the cougar's hunting style. I think cougars are great amazing incredible animals and I WANT them around. Just in lower numbers.

I lived at the edge of town in southern OR for 3 years. My backyard was the edge of city limits. There was a cougar spotted in the area. It was hunted down and killed.

I now have a two year old and a new born. If I was away at work and my wife was on the back patio holding my newborn and my two year old was playing in the yard. There was a 7 foot retaining wall between the forest and my backyard. If a hungry cougar targeted my son it would be over. We can not have them near our cities and towns.

And also on a lesser note because it is nature. They are hurting the deer and elk populations. If you care about the health of the herds then we should manage predators a little better. The deer/elk habitat is not what ti once was and never will be again so they need a little help.

[BrionLutz]

2LEYS,

As the ODFW quote notes, you would do better to worry about the more lethal deer, spiders and bees than cougars.

Brion

[Lured In]

Okay, I can't stay out of this any longer.

The life cycle of predator and prey goes up and down inversely in relation to one another. As the prey population increases, it provides a boon the the predator and after a period of time the predator population will increase to meet the supply of prey. Once the prey species has been reduced to a point below the carrying capacity of the predator species, the predator species will become less effective at breeding and generally less successful surviving. The result? The predator population crashes. Then it starts all over again.

Is this really new to anyone? [img]graemlins/1zhelp.gif[/img]

Cougars, bears, wolves, etc. Have their place. AS DO HUMANS! We are a PREDATOR and therefore COMPETE with cougars (and sea lions). At the most naturalistic level this is what is taking place. Compound that with the fact that not only do we compete, we displace our fellow predators.

The good news is that we have the ability to manipulate (for good and bad) our relationship to our environment and our competition. (Something they don't have the ability to do.) We can effectively say how many cougars are good for the amount of habitat available. We can also say how many deer and elk are good, even if that number is falsley inflated.

If we are to manipulate (read manage) the quality, quantity and location of "wildlife habitat", we must also manage both predator and prey species. If we do not make an effort to balance all of these aspects, you end up with conflict and ultimately a 'broken' system. (kind of like expecting a roof to hold with only two walls supporting it.) We make and effort to manage the harvest of deer and elk. We make and effort to provide good habitat for salmon. We make little or no effort to manage the predators that depend on these prey species (or their habitat). We CANNOT effectively manage cougars under the current regulations. (even in areas where residential human conflict is minimal.) ODFW is raising the quota on cougars to just over 500 this year. Last year was a record harvest of 230 cats with a quota of over 400. By ODFW's own admission, the cat population is growing faster than they would like. Both for the preservation of deer and elk populations, as well as minimize conflict with residential areas.

One personal opinion as a hunter, if you go into the woods, you are not in Kansas anymore! You have reverted back to the predator prey/survival model. You are directly competing with the cougars. While I have yet to see a cat while hunting (I try not to look for them. [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img] _I have crossed many tracks. Two years ago, I changed my path while deer hunting as I was certain there was a cougar kill just up the ridge from me. Buzzards were flying and crows were sqwaking. I didn't want to know what was up there. If you go into the woods and don't expect to cross a cougar, you are not only ignorant, you are likely setting yourself up as bait. :tongue: Hunt hard and hunt smart.

I agree with STG that logging helped the deer elk populations. The reason was that large scale fires were no longer allowed to do the same work. You have to pick one or the other, but you can't stop both and expect the habitat to support the wildlife. The deer, elk, cougars and salmon have survived fires, earthquakes, volcanoes, landslides, etc. (so have we for that matter.)

Let's be smart about how we "manage" both the wildlife (predator and prey) and the environment. Like love and marriage, you can't have one without the other.

[Lured In]

Brion, you have contributed some useful and thoughtful insights in other threads. But I have to say your last two posts are nothing more than standing in the corner with your tongue out and being spiteful for your own entertainment. :tongue:

Try contributing useful information instead of antagonizing.

'Nuff said.

[Mr. Carp]

Lured In: I agree completely with your views on the predator management.

[BrionLutz]

LuredIn,

It's been about 10,000 years since we were stealing dinner from the sea lions and cougars...agriculuture, domestication of animals, fire...a few other knick knacks along the way...best to stick to the here and now.

I thought it was funny...all the hysteria about very rare cougar sightings and the ODFW's note that spiders, bees and deer (figure that one out) kill more people than cougars.

I thought that was very useful information to provide to folks hyperventilating over rare big cats.

Brion


***EDITED - Let's keep the baiting out on the waters, mmmmkay?***

[ 06-17-2003, 07:30 AM: Message edited by: The Fishing Geek ]

[MasterCaster]

lost_sailor, I dont know where you do all that stuff but you dont have to go far to find cougars. I know of a big tom, and a mother and 3 babies in the West Salem area around Zena. That is at least 4 big cats in only a few square miles seen multiple times. We also never used to see the cats but now it is getting to be a common occurrence to see then UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL for my family members during our hunting seasons.

When a mother cat will bring her kittens into an OCCUPIED camp and wander around for a lengthy period of time something needs to be done. &lt;Yes that happened to us&gt; What if a someone was to wake up from sleeping in a tent and step out in between the cats? I bet it would not be a pretty sight.

Bring back the dogs and bait. I will have a tag from now on and will not hesitate to take one out if I get the chance.

Jon :smile: :grin: :smile:

[2LEYS]

Lured In. That was right on the money. We can on the scene and messed things up with our intelligence. We are now forced to manage things.

***Edited for content. Cougar baiting, and user baiting, are both illegal in these parts. -TFG***

[ 06-17-2003, 06:58 AM: Message edited by: The Fishing Geek ]

[Straydog]

Originally posted by Lured In:
Cougars, bears, wolves, etc. Have their place. AS DO HUMANS!

One personal opinion as a hunter, if you go into the woods, you are not in Kansas anymore! You have reverted back to the predator prey/survival model. You are directly competing with the cougars.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">So, if humans choose (not by necessity but CHOOSE) to move into the woods, urban interface or "edge of town" abutting the woods, do you think it is ok to hunt down and kill a Cougar because it was sighted in the area as someone said they did?

As you said, we all have our place but it seems to me that the arrogance of man generally dictates that once he moves to the predators "place", it automaticly becomes mans "place".

This reminds me of when as a kid in the '60's, my dad would come home from work so mad because he and his co-workers at the mill had been talking about racism. Those that leaned farther right than my dad always said a certain group of Americans "had their place and as long as they stayed in their place all would be peaceful." When my dad would press them for an answer to just where that "place" is, it seemed it boiled down only to those places the white man didn't want to be...................

We are making some progress of growing beyond our racial prejudices, hopefully we will soon make more progress in growing beyond our predator prejudices.

By the way, I find it interesting the "kill them on sight" side of this argument has not even flinched at the fact that there are far more greater threats in deer, bees, etc. than Cougars. Guess facts like that don't belong in this "place".

[ 06-17-2003, 06:50 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[STGRule]

Thank you Lured In. I too agree that we have to manage both predators and prey. My point is the hysteria about a "but it might happen" problem. I strongly disagree that something should be killed because of what "might happen" and any inconvenience (sea lions) to people.

Brion: You really need to back off a bunch. You're sounding more and more fanatical and it's making it harder and harder to put any credence in your thoughts. Being a bully has never worked before, I don't know why you think it will now. You're quite capable of making your point without being nasty and sarcastic.

[ 06-17-2003, 07:29 AM: Message edited by: STGRule ]

[Lured In]

Straydog...as far as human's choice in where we live, anyone ingnorant enough to believe they can live in "fringe" areas and not see a cougar is deceiving themselves. How should the cats be handled in the situation? Personally, you should rarely ever see a cougar. Especially during the day and near populous areas. If they are in this area, they are attempting to make that territory their own.

From what I have read about cougars, is that they need on the order of 100 square miles or more per cat. When the young ones are old enough to be on their own, they (especially the males) have to find their own territory. If we have not managed them in woods, they are going to expand out into residential areas. A cougar living in a residential area is no longer wild if it is feeding on cats, dogs and children. (Bear transplants in urban areas have shown once they are familiar with the easy picking of trash dumps, etc, they will come back to those areas rather than reverting back to getting food on their own.)

Personally, I believe that if we were more aggressive about managing cougars in the woods, we would see fewer instances of conflict with people. So instead of killing them in the woods they are being killed in neighborhoods. (not exactly 'fair chase' when the cougar is hiding on the roof. )

If people really cared about cougars, they would support providing them with a decent living. In order to do that we have to keep their population in check. That means being proactive and giving them the space they need to maintain their population, prey base, and minimize human conflict.

While I am not trying to be absurd, often times our logic is not linear when it comes to similar situations. For instance, if you believe cougars have the same right to live in your backyard because its natural, why do you do everything you can to prevent wildfires (also natural) from burning your house flat? (not accusational, just an example.)

My point is that lots of things in this world are naturally occuring. But, that does not mean it is in the best interest of people or wildlife to let it go unchecked.

[lost_sailor]

Originally posted by 2LEYS:
Thank god we have Bush as president who listens to the people who know about forest management instead of liberal city dwellers who havn't seen a tree outside of central park.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica"> [img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img]

Right, trees are at the heart of every forest fire. Let's make 'em into money! I've seen trees from Central Park to Alaska, and I'm afraid Bush is a very very evil thing.

[2LEYS]

Why not use proper forest management to make someone a little money? What is wrong with that? You can't possibly that they will be allowed to go in and start leveling our national forests. That just wont happen. He said that there will be selective thinning of dangerous areas.

What would happen if we decided to stop all hunting all together? What would happen to the deer and elk populations? They would explode. You couldn't grow a garden or even drive your car with out hitting a deer. Agriculture would be decimated.

Why are we allowed to control prey populations but anytime anyone talks about controlling predators people get all up in arms?

[The Fishing Geek]

The food chain must have been WAY outta control before Man came along.

[2LEYS]

Actually Geek, can I call you Geek? Thanks. :smile: The food chain was perfect before the ultimate predator came along. Now since we inhabited all of the plains and valleys of western Oregon we are now forced, obligated if you will to manage the other species. We could have wiped them all out long ago. We did and almost did in many cases.

So unless we all want to go live on boats in the ocean or the moon then we are stuck with what our ancestors have done.

[ 06-17-2003, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: 2LEYS ]