"Wind Knots" (on a non windy day)

Ingraham · 07-17-2009, 08:23 PM

I tried to search this thread and, may have missed it, couldn�t find a great answer to the following question: How do �wind knots� end up in my leader? Besides the obvious answer of �Wind� I would like to know why the wind makes a knot in the line. My assumption is that it has to do with bad casting due to overcompensating for the wind but even so, why the knot?
Also, I�m a new fly caster and can manage to put knots in my leader even without the wind so I�m wondering what is happening and how to avoid it. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

dubl_t · 07-17-2009, 08:35 PM

I think, for some reason, that your hook is dropping below your loop. Either your loop is too tight or your starts/stops are in the wrong position. What's the standard, '11 and 1'? try opening it up to '9:30 and 1'.

kigercreek · 07-17-2009, 08:42 PM

You're probably starting your forward cast a bit soon, or just casting with too tight of a loop. Open it up a little. I find that when I go from fast to moderate speed rods, I start having tailing loops...even after 30 years of flycasting...and need to consciously think about or watch the backcast when changing rods. Realize that the weight of the fly/wind resistance causes the leader to do different things, too. Also, look at your leader taper. Is the tippet too fine for the taper (assuming you are adding tippet to the leader)? This is just a starter, but some things to consider.

Ingraham · 07-17-2009, 09:00 PM

Let's say my loop is to tight, which I think it is; would coming down to 9:30 open that loop up more? And, why does a tight loop tend to put knots in the leader? My back cast and timing is good so I don't think that is the problem.

FYI - I was using 6wt line and a practice fly which I made by cutting the hook part of one of those steelhead yarn hook things so it was just the eye and the yarn ball. The tippit is new and goes down to 4x.

kigercreek · 07-17-2009, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingraham

Let's say my loop is to tight, which I think it is; would coming down to 9:30 open that loop up more? And, why does a tight loop tend to put knots in the leader? My back cast and timing is good so I don't think that is the problem.

FYI - I was using 6wt line and a practice fly which I made by cutting the hook part of one of those steelhead yarn hook things so it was just the eye and the yarn ball. The tippit is new and goes down to 4x.

Watch the loop on your cast/backcast as you go through your normal routine, then start using more (or less) wrist, and watch how the loop changes. You want that tight loop when casting into the wind, among other times, but the more open loop will allow for a more gentle presentation. There is a time for all kinds of loops...

kigercreek · 07-17-2009, 09:13 PM

By the way, while the 10 and 1 positions are the norm, I often find that people, especially when starting out, tend to drop their rod to nearly 3 when they think they are at 1. I'll have them bring the rod up at normal speed to 12 o'clock, and they invariably will be at near 1. So, I preach 10 and 12, which seems to get in the proper position.

Ingraham · 07-17-2009, 09:54 PM

That's really great help, thank you. (More comments welcome as well) I'll get out in the morning and try those things out and report back. BTW, what is actually happening to the line to create the overhand knot? If the fly drops below the bottom line in the loop will that cause it to form an overhand knot when the direction is reversed? If that is the case, is that why they call it a Wind Knot because guys are casting tighter loops in the wind and it happens more?

kigercreek · 07-17-2009, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingraham

That's really great help, thank you. (More comments welcome as well) I'll get out in the morning and try those things out and report back. BTW, what is actually happening to the line to create the overhand knot? If the fly drops below the bottom line in the loop will that cause it to form an overhand knot when the direction is reversed? If that is the case, is that why they call it a Wind Knot because guys are casting tighter loops in the wind and it happens more?

Heck, I've had figure-8 wind knots. Explain that!!

Dry Fly · 07-18-2009, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kigercreek

Heck, I've had figure-8 wind knots. Explain that!!

Me too!

This is a great thread, and some good suggestions kigercreek. I hope more folks chime in.

I'm a retread newbie (took a very long break from fly fishing), so I'm working on polishing my timing again. I've got the 10 and 1 arc down pat, but still perfecting how much to use my wrist. The variables of balancing the leader/tippet/fly relationship AND the fact I bounce around between fly rods, really keeps me on my toes! It's all fun though, and I don't let wind knots rile me up like they used to--------just take in a breath of clean mountain air and start untangling.

Slow and Low · 07-18-2009, 04:57 AM

i think it is most commonly dropping the tip. this creates a small tangle. a solid stop is the solution.

PacificCoastSteel · 07-18-2009, 05:29 AM

getting the stopping points down is one step... another important piece of controlling "wind" knots (casting knots

) is the plane that the rod tip is traveling in...

imagine that the rod tip is drawing a line in the air as you false cast or cast the line. if the rod tip isn't drawing a straight line every time you're gonna have wind knot issues... so watch the rod tip to make sure it isn't arcing in a semi-circle or more commonly a small figure 8 pattern...
you can cast a fly rod on a perfectly vertical plane, on a sidearm plane, and to get into the wind a perfectly horizontal plane works awesome - you just gotta watch the rod tip and that it isn't leaving the level plane... when the rod tip starts whipping around on crazy arcs the line has to follow, and so do wind knots

i like to teach stopping points of 11:00 to 1:00, because as stated above beginners will almost always open it up a little too much

dubl_t · 07-18-2009, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PacificCoastSteel

the plane that the rod tip is traveling... so watch the rod tip to make sure it isn't arcing in a semi-circle or more commonly a small figure 8 pattern...

yep another very valid point. I watched a really good casting/presentation 'video' (yrs&yrs ago) by this English guy, and, if I can get my drawing into words, he said you don't want that 'arc' as mentioned by PCS; and to avoid it you can lift the shoulder or elbow on the back-cast. More of a straight plane, where the tip on the back stop is higher than the front stop.

Another thing I remembered (after it was mentioned here

) is stopping your arm at 12 (or a little earlier), which will put your rod at 1, typically.

PacificCoastSteel · 07-18-2009, 08:08 AM

forgot to mention - i've noticed that most of the time when the rod tip is traveling outside of the level plane it's because the caster is "breaking" their wrist. usually fixed by paying attention to casting from the elbow instead of the wrist... try to concentrate on keeping the wrist more or less locked - the front cast should feel more like pushing the grip forward than snapping the rod tip....

when casting starts to break down/becomes more difficult it always helps me and my clients to start watching the rod tip thru the whole cast - especially the backcast... if you watch the rod tip you'll also see the flyline as it stretches out in the backcast

these knots will also happen if you back cast like a little limpwristed six-year-old girl... you almost can't put too much power into the backcast when you're doing the overhead dryfly cast...IMHO

Ingraham · 07-18-2009, 09:43 AM

This is great, thank you guys! I went out this morning for an hour to practice and no knots. My main problem was that, although my wrist was locked and back cast was stopping at 1, my forward cast was stopping way too early. I also think my back cast stop still does not have enough gusto.

Can you explain more of the raising of the elbow. When you raise your elbow a bit for the back cast and bring it back down for the front, doesn't that shoot the line more at a cross body angle a bit because the rod tip would be going more away and back to you during the cast? Does that make sense?

Again, thanks for the free casting lessons online!

anschutz1913 · 07-18-2009, 10:05 AM

The 3 components of both a forward and a back cast are:

1. Load- load the rod up
2. Power snap- the power snap is what accelerates the line
3. Stop- the stop is what allows the loop to unroll

Wind knots can be caused from an insufficient load on the start of the forward cast, which is then compensated for with too hard of a power snap. If the rod is loaded right, the power snap is a short movement. At the stop, the loop unrolls, and voila!

I am glad that everyone here is mentioning that a cast has movement at the shoulder, and the elbow. You know the Atlanta Braves tomahawk chopping motion. Combine that with moving your elbow up and down. That is the complete cast. I see most people just waving their rod with no vertical elbow movement. I did it and you can cast alright. But, it is tiring, poor accuracy, and the distance isn't even close to getting the shoulder and elbow motion down.

Also, for loop control, play with the timing and force of the power snap. When I throw big stone flies, I try to use huge loops. I do this by slowing things down a bit, but also moving my rod in an oval shaped sweep, instead of in one plane.

ANZ

skaha · 07-18-2009, 10:18 AM

"every backcast should travel at some upward angle" quote from Lefty Kreh.

--advanced fly casting book and video by lefty.. might be able to rent it from a fishing store is well worth a look.
--many faults... can be used to your advantage when fishing is some situations... snap of wrist to allow casting around a rock etc. which is demonstrated in the video

--Get someone to video your cast, it will surprise you.

--can open loop by consiously exagerating stop of rod on backcast when line is still in upward motion.

--common problem (excluding leader lenght, fly weight, etc. ) is dropping rod to quick on forward cast.

--try casting 10 ft of wool on a stick or with your rod tip... there are commercial models for purchase.. ie joan wolfe's. you will easily see your arching loop and direction you are stopping your cast.

--short casting, side to side motion... you will see the loop and get an idea of feel then move rod to more upright normal position. It is the position of the rod tip at the stop position that determines where the line will shoot.

--Moving wrist, adjusting stance etc. all affect the rod tip position at point of release. you may see varying style, do not be fooled by where the rod ends up it is where the tip is pointed when the line is launched.
--Lefty uses the analogy of a paper airplane... try an arching arm motion, the plane takes off in direction pionted at time or release on the arch.

--I could claim these for my own but would be unfair to Lefty and his video that I used many years ago.

kodiakfisher · 07-18-2009, 10:52 AM

One thing I sometimes notice is that my wind notes increase with wind from the side.

I will often backcast with my rod tip to the down wind side. If the wind is at my back I also will open my stance up just a bit so I can easily turn my wrist over on the backcast and create a forward cast in the backwards direction (also very useful for steeple casting due to high banks behind you). This allows me to watch the effect the wind is having on my line. I have fly fished in wind so bad at Pyramid lake in CA that you couldn't get your line to straighten out behind you. It took a huge double haul to pull the line in to get it straight behind you to start your foward cast.

With some of my heavier weighted fly mostly for fishing Alaska, with side and wind at my back I will have to really open up my backcast. Once my back cast motion has been completed and I feel the rod unload I will allow my wrist to break over slightly to open up the loop behind me so that heavily weighted fly doesn't drop below my line. Keep in mind that when you open up your loop behind you be allowing your wrist to break slightly it changes the timming of your forward casts and can really mess up double hauling. This in turn can create wind knotes on your forward cast, can't tell you how many wind Knotes I created on a forward cast by trying to fix backcasts. Fly fishing on the Island of Kodiak, AK, fishing in the wind is just a fact of fishing.

Kodiakfisher

MarlinMark · 07-18-2009, 11:28 AM

Tailing loops can be caused by the "plane" that the back cast and fore cast or made in. Make your casts in slightly different planes and the the line/loops won't have a chance to "tail" into each other. Savy??

Mark

skaha · 07-18-2009, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarlinMark

Tailing loops can be caused by the "plane" that the back cast and fore cast or made in. Make your casts in slightly different planes and the the line/loops won't have a chance to "tail" into each other. Savy??

Mark

--good advise and a lot less wordy than my attempted explanation

Dry Fly · 07-18-2009, 12:44 PM

Wow, this thread came alive this morning---------and with lots of excellent advice. Thank you.

I just ordered Joan Wulff's Dynamics of Fly Casting DVD. I'm sure that I've got some bad habits, so I'll start back "at the beginning" and confirm I'm not screwing up some serious foundational stuff. The DVD is reported to cover from basic to advanced techniques, so I'm also looking forward to learning to double haul.

It's all about finesse, and if the lovely and petite Joan Wulff can throw line at long distances with precision, then there's no reason a knuckle-dragger like me shouldn't be able to also---------given a few years of practice.

dubl_t · 07-18-2009, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dry Fly

It's all about finesse, and if the lovely and petite Joan Wulff can throw line at long distances with precision, then there's no reason a knuckle-dragger like me shouldn't be able to also---------given a few years of practice.

Testimony. Very seldom is it about 'power', more so technique. I watched a guy cast fly line from his hand (no rod) about 30'.

One practice I used to do (and still should), is tie a 10' piece of yarn to my tip section and just wave it around; watching how the yarn reacted to different swings, tempo, etc.

Another point though, is matching the line to the rod, not just what the mfgr. says what weight it is.

nunyet · 07-21-2009, 07:00 AM

The power in the stroke must be applied smoothly , you can make a tailing loop on demand by banging the power all at once. You need to load the rod by moving smoothly and have the power loaded in the rod for the final push at the end of the stroke.

nunyet

Ingraham · 07-22-2009, 08:16 PM

Hello everyone. Thank you so much for all the information and great tips. The bottom line to my problem was that I have a tendency to have a slight oval sweep between my back and front cast which was causing the line to knot or the fly to hit the rod or line. Anyway, great advice for better all around casts. When you're new to fly fishing, as I am, information like this is so valuable (and it's at the right price!). First switch rod is coming so so I'm sure there will be more questions!