Military Sonar and Marine Mammals

[crabbait]

Summarized from todays Oregonian: Six harbor porpoises were found dead, three beached just west of Haro and three in the San Juan Islands to the south, after a U.S. Navy vessel tested mid-range sonar early last week in Haro Strait.

Brian Gorman of the Marine Fisheries Service said Thursday, "The number isn't terrifically unusual. What's unusual is the coincidence with the sonar incident."

Two additional dolphins were found dead and seven others stranded on Whidbey Island. Dolphin strandings are not unusual this time of year.

On May 5, the day of the testing, witnesses observed scores of dolphins leaping from the water apparently trying to escape the sound. When bursts of sound became audible to humans, killer whales in the area bunched near the shore of of the strait. Fred Fellerman, of the Orca Conservancy, said, "as top predators, Orcas don't have a flight response. They are not used to needing a flight response." He said the sound was "clearly a great source of stress".

The carcass of one dolphin and the heads of two others have been preserved for necropsies focusing on possible damage to their ears and soft tissues of the head. Results may take weeks.

What do you think about this?

[ 05-16-2003, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: crabbait ]

[The Fishing Geek]

I think that, for being the most intelligent of the life on Earth, we can be really stupid sometimes.

[Cool Texan]

I gotta agree with the Geek.

[OceanBlue]

It's sad, but interesting. I wonder if they can figure out what happened.

[Miss B Haven]

I think I'm glad I wasn't Scuba diving in the vicinity! :shocked: My brain is pretty scrambled already!

Other than that- it stinks if true! [img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img]

[GutshotApe]

My old Navy ship USS Truxtun, a nuclear-powered cruiser, was new in 1967 and had an SQS-26 sonar system...newest, best and most powerful ever built (then). Our sonar had a range of up to 200 miles...and was so strong that even in "dummy load" when the sonar techs tested it in port, anyone beneath the waterline in the ship heard an intense, piercing tone. It wasn't turned on for real until we were well out at sea and then was adjusted depending on depth, thermoclines, etc.

In Jan. 1968 we prosecuted a submarine contact east of Hawaii...and after a lengthy exercise aided by two P-3 Orions, about midnight the submarine surfaced. It was a Soviet nuke attack boat. One of the P-3s swooped down for a landing light photo and the sub immediately dove. We turned and crossed over the datum point and went right down the submerged sub's track, already 300' deep...and the captain ordered the sonar boys to give the Russkies a full power directed pulse from the sonar dome...as a going away present. The captain said the Russians would be bleeding from their ears. At the time I thought that was BS, or if true, it would earn us a torpedo up the stern :shocked: . We made it into Pearl Harbor without further incident.

I have no doubt that sonar can be very detrimental to marine mammals and fish...especially in shallow inshore areas.

[gimmeumpqua]

Try shooting a .357 magnum next to your ear and then continue that noise at 10 times the level. Our armed services are only valuable if compassion for all living things is considered.I think it's really bad karma to hurt those animals like that.


Kurt

[Hoosier Daddy]

I think we need to know what they find in the necropsy.

[Birdnest]

I understand the Navy has a serious job to do, but I believe they could be a lot more careful with this. Areas like Puget Sound are like a fish bowl. I don't understand why they were running their sonar in the exact area that the J,K,& L pods of Orcas hang out. Are we really worried about a Soviet sub anymore? These three pods are probably some of the most studied and understood as far as their home range. Don't go into their back yard and crank it up. :depressed:

Birdnest

PS Last summer the three pods came together and created a "super pod". They were breaching and spy hopping all around us. There were calves with their mommas. One of the most incredible days of my life.

[ 05-17-2003, 07:42 AM: Message edited by: Birdnest ]

[Bill Monroe]

GSA...
We've just GOT to go fish or duck hunt sometime...(I called in a jake for a friend yesterday down off the Old Lorane Highway).
In 1968, I was still a sonarman aboard the USS George K. McKenzie (DD836) out of Yokosuka...We only had the SQS 23, but were due for a 26 retro when I left the following year to fly in P3s.
I don't know that we ever caused much trouble with whales with the 23, but heard them all the time at sea.
I do know the 26 performed just as you said and that was more than 30 years of technology backwards.
It's incomprehensible to me, even as a vet, that any testing like that would ever take place in that tight a location for any reason whatsoever. Even in the name of research of fiords, inlets, currents or whatever.
I've never been ashamed to be a sailor, but also have never been shy about questioning the Navy's judgment.
All that said, I also know from being at the heart of the news business that perhaps we simply don't know everything that happened.
Nevertheless, the typical Navy MO is to learn from mistakes rather than think too far ahead.

[GutshotApe]

Yeah Bill...I'm concentrating on catching an upriver Willamette springer...so far, nothing but the usual results. Gonna get one next week once the weather and water warms up.

The only time I felt at all ashamed to be a sailor was in 1965 when my first ship, the USS Sperry (a sub tender) made its annual voyage just to prove it could still go to sea. We went to Acapulco and all the way down and all the way back the ship's and admiral's staff officers who were so inclined were allowed to tote whatever weapon they wanted from the ship's armory...and shoot at whatever moved in the ocean. Some of 'em used .45 pistols, some M-1 rifles, a couple liked Thompson submachine guns...and they stood on the bow and shot at flying fish, porpoises, dolphins, and once, a medium-sized whale :shocked: . Part of me, even in those primitive pre-PC, pre-ESA times, recognized that what they were doing was wrong :depressed: . But, another part of me wanted to get a hold of one of those Tommy guns and try my hand at the flying fish!

[Straydog]

This appears to be a topic we can all agree on!
Something about this isn't right and should be stopped.

[sinker]

I think what alot of people are neglecting to realize is how much there is to protect and defend in this area.
There's Bremerton which has the Puget Sound Naval shipyards, Bangor (home of the nukes), Everett Naval Base, Whidbey Island Naval Air Station, Indian Island which is where the munitions are kept. Plus a few other military installations.

Don't think that in the times we live in this was just a training exercise. It's hard telling what was going on. I would imagine if we were to be in a larger war than Iraq the entire north end of Puget Sound would be being pinged like this.

Here's this link of military installations.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...uget-sound.htm

My feelings is that if a few porpoises or whales have to die for the security of our nation well then to bad.
I would imagine if these were seals not one of you would be griping.

[Birdnest]

Sinker,

Do you really think terrorist are sporting nuclear subs? Like I said before, they have a tough job, in a tough time, but there seems to be a lack of common sense here.

Birdnest

[pdxkevin]

You know it's sad but true...

This topic has floated around for a couple years now. I was suprised it hasn't fomented here sooner.


The U.S. Navy wants to flood the world's oceans and coastal waters with sonar technology that deafens -- and kills -- whales and other marine mammals.

Around the globe, nations are testing and beginning to deploy "active sonar" technology, which uses extremely loud sound to detect submarines. The problem? Active sonar can injure and even kill marine mammals. It has been conclusively linked to the deaths of seven whales in the Bahamas in March 2000, and is thought to have caused a 1996 mass stranding of beaked whales on the west coast of Greece... ... the rest of the story.

[sinker]

Birdnest,
Do you really think that terrorists are the only real threat to us??

You guys are jumping the gun so bad, the liberal media tossed their line and you guys bit hard.
They have no clue why these things beached themselves. Some do every year for unexplained reasons.
You guys fishing for oversized sturgeon have killed more oversized sturgeon so you could have some fun than these guys killed porpoises protecting our country.

[ 05-17-2003, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: sinker ]

[Birdnest]

Sinker,

No I do not think terrorist are the only threat to our national security. I would like to hear what country (with a nuclear sub) that you really think is going to swim into Puget Sound and launch an attack. [img]graemlins/eek13.gif[/img]

A far more realistic threat would be a couple of "fisherfolks" in a Trophy full of fertilizer. As luck would have it, the Trophy's are not capable of submersing on purpose. So money would be better spent on fast attack boats with an ability to answer our needs with out roughing up Willy.

Funny, you mentioned the liberal media and the fact that we all had the wool pulled over our eyes. This is not new information, nor is it speculation. There is hard science behind the decible levels involved and the damage it is capable of. I will make you a deal, next time the the Navy is out pinging away making sure Bin Laden hasn't dusted off his snorkle and fins, you can take swim, see for yourself. :shocked:

Birdnest

[sinker]

No where did I say that these sounds aren't possible of damage.
What hasn't been proven his how these ones dies but everyone is jumping the gun.

Never said anything about a nuke sub. There are plenty of diesel subs in the North Korean and Chinese fleets. Not sure if they have nuke subs or not. But the diesel subs run quieter than nukes anyways. And since the fall of the Soviet Union I wouldn't be surprised if there are a few subs floating around the black market either.

As I said before, I realize that this endangers sea life, but if thats what it takes to keep my family and your family safe, so be it.

And once again, if we were talking about some salmon eating seals and sea lions none you guys would even be talking about this on here unless it was to cheer about it.

[Birdnest]

Here you go...

http://www.b-americanboats.com/whiskeysub.html

I hear it comes with a black helicopter. :grin:

[Hoosier Daddy]

Anyone remember the drug runner that had a deal brokered for a Russian nuke sub? It was on TV a few months ago. Sounded like the missiles were optional as well.....