One perspective on 26-48 and the school board

[fisheromen]

The compulsory education social experiment in America has only been around for 150 years or so, with the last 100 in earnest. Literacy rates before compulsory education in the NE US were in the high 90's, and judging by the books that were popular then, literacy meant literacy. Nowadays we are lucky to manage 60+ percent literacy for high school grads at a 6th grade reading level.

Not only is the efficacy of public schooling as an effective means of schooling suspect, but there isn't a demonstrative correlation between spending and quality of education. I'm not sure what the answer is for schools which are doing a deplorable job of teaching. But I don't think that throwing more money at the existing entrenched and intransigent system is the answer. As for me, I'm voting for the reformists for the school board (like Liljegren in zone 1 and Lekas in zone 3) and marking a firm no down for 26-48.

For anyone interested, John Taylor Gatto, former NY Teacher of the Year, provides an excellent critique of public schooling in his books "Dumbing us Down" and "The Underground History of American Education", both available through the Multnomah County Library.

Teachers aren't the problem, the system is.

[Cool Texan]

I voted No for 28, and will vote No for this one.

[Lepper]

I voted YES because I don't think you pay enough taxes.. :grin:

[McDuck85]

It makes you wonder what Oregon will be like when the best and brightest move to Washington to give their children a complete education without the worry of having programs chopped.

Maybe we can fund the schools with all the Out-of-State Fishing Licenses we'll be able to sell.

Sad state of affairs.

[Straydog]

Yea, that is why all of the poverty stricken inner city schools perform so well........ money has nothing to do with it.

Further, comparing most anything to 150 years ago is rather bogus. This isn't 1853 in many, many ways. Did the education achieved 150 years ago bring us cancer treatment, small pox vaccines, a man on the moon and the internet?

The use of big words as a facade of intelect are an embarassment to thinking people.

[ 05-07-2003, 06:59 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[GutshotApe]

Originally posted by McDuck85:
Maybe we can fund the schools with all the Out-of-State Fishing Licenses we'll be able to sell.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Unfortunately, that is apparently the solution offered by the "Stop the Loggers" crowd. Get rid of industry, increase tourism...

Ever been to Jackson Hole, Wyoming, in the summer?...get ready, Oregon, because that's what we're headed for. A tourist-based economy.

The bad news: Unfortunately, there won't be many decent paying jobs in a tourist economy so most of you who are trying to raise families will have to leave. :depressed: Texas? California?

The good news: Many of those advocating for the change are insulated from the negative effects...so after all you riff raff clear out, Oregon will be ALL OURS!

[fisheromen]

Did you mean "intellect"? I won't resort to slamming you as not being a thinking person Straydog because at least you read the post and critically analyzed it - albeit probably without having ever actually researched the facts. Nonetheless, good job - just focus your critical thinking a little on the prevailing public education dogma as well.

The tax dollars are spread throughout the district meaning that there is no such thing as a "poverty stricken inner city school". Schools in Washington DC are better funded than anywhere else in the country but have some of the worst performance. Granted a lot of the poor performance both here and there is due to factors outside the classroom.

Regardless, the point is that as school funding has increased dramatically over the last 100 years and the compulsory nature of schooling has become more rigid and far reaching, literacy rates have plummetted.

And I would submit that the advances in science and technology would have been accelerated had not brilliant minds been jailed and dumbed down to the lowest common denominator for 12 years.

PS. If I sometimes use big words it's because I love how words can have precise, descriptive meanings which help clarify my thoughts. It's very much a matter of my temperament and very little to impress or hide my lack of intellect. I freely admit that I am stupid compared to many. [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img]

[fisheromen]

The best and the brightest won't move to Washington from having their programs chopped, they'll move there because of an inefficient school bureaucracy that doesn't get it and because of confiscatory taxation!

Oregon has the highest unemployemnt rate of any state and in the heart of Oregon we are already adding extra taxes to businesses. Now with 26-48 we'll be adding extra taxes to individuals. Did you and your wife make $50k combined last year? Fork over another $560 to the government!

[Kruechief]

Fisheromen,

Excellent information! [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]


It’s time to close public schools and allow parents to do the right thing by supporting smaller, more accountable institutions.

Krue

[Straydog]

Fisheroman,

Yes, "intellect". Sorry for the typo and nice back door slam. [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

Time dosen't allow me to waste it on proving you wrong. Suffice it to say you are not taking into account population growth, demographic adustments and the related social issues that have been mounting for the past 100 years.

Comparing Apples and Oranges does little to solve our problems.

Krue,

Who is going to pay for your plan? I guess we could re-do our public school system to provide smaller, community based schools but that, according to "them" that is too expensive and partly why we now have such large, hard to manage schools. :whazzup:

[lost_sailor]

Originally posted by Kruechief:


It’s time to close public schools and allow parents to do the right thing by supporting smaller, more accountable institutions.

Krue

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Yep, it's high time we put complete power into the hands of the wealthy. They have struggled so.

We'll have plenty of poor ignorant people to serve in the armed forces, in the pursuit of world domination.

I like it!

[pdxkevin]

Why don't we take the same approach as we are with energy? (or that we should be taking with energy)

Instead of trying to go after more of a finite resource, why don't we start looking at better alternatives? The system isn't working. Most people can agree on that. Why not spend the money we already allocated on a new system instead?

I hear about school days being cut, janitors losing their jobs, and teachers not getting the raises they a crying for. When was the last time (if ever) the admin. was cut? or distrctic level and higher admin? Have they ever taken (more than the occasional individual) a real wage cut? What about getting rid of sim/cam ~ a concept proven to do nothing more than waste money and time teacher's could be using on actually... oh I don't know... teach!

They claim this is a temporary increase. Yeah, right. When have they ever actually lowered our taxes. Once the three years are up, I guarentee, we will see a proposal to make it permenent. "Just to maintian funding at its current level."

Then they can parade the ads for letting prisoners go and starving the elderly. Almost forgot that we would be taking their meds. too!

My family is voting this down.

[fisheromen]

Actually this would be taking power out of the hands of the wealthy (guys like Carnegie and Rockefeller) who had a huge role in shaping public education as a means of helping the masses become good consumers and workers. How on earth would locally accountable control of schooling on a private or community basis put power in the hands of the wealthy? I assure you that in our society there would still be alternatives for those who are poor, and I bet they would be a lot better than what we have now.

[pdxkevin]

Ever notice that Homeschoolers are consistantly out scoring the 'traditionally' schooled on nearly all testing and academemic contests?

Homeschoolers tend to a lower teen pregnancy rate, are more socially adjusted (if you include interaction between generations), graduate sooner, and have overall higher self esteem.

If we truly care about the kids, then we MUST do what's best for them.

[Hoosier Daddy]

Nearly 100% of homeschoolers homeschool precisely because they are concerned about their childrens education and welfare. That percentage is much lower for the general public.

How about this as a fix for education: GIVE A DAMN ABOUT YOUR KIDS AND THEIR EDUCATION. Teaching to the lowest common denominator would be fine if that denominator wasn't so darned low.

[ 05-07-2003, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: Hoosier Daddy ]

[Cool Texan]

Originally posted by Straydog:
Fisheroman,

Yes, "intellect". Sorry for the typo and nice back door slam. [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

Time dosen't allow me to waste it on proving you wrong. Suffice it to say you are not taking into account population growth, demographic adustments and the related social issues that have been mounting for the past 100 years.

Comparing Apples and Oranges does little to solve our problems.

Krue,

Who is going to pay for your plan? I guess we could re-do our public school system to provide smaller, community based schools but that, according to "them" that is too expensive and partly why we now have such large, hard to manage schools. :whazzup:

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">No, I am not jumping in on this topic...but have a couple of observations from the sidelines:

1) Nice shot on the "intellect". [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] I love seeing those. :grin:

2) It seems that whenever I hear things like "Time dosen't allow me to waste it on proving you wrong", it generally means that you can not prove someone wrong on a topic, and that you are merely guessing based on some incomplete knowledge. Hard to argue if you "cant" or wont state facts.

3) What's the point of arguing this? No one on here has a well thought out solution to this problem. We all have ideas and concepts, but nothing with any practice behind it. Seems as though its armchair quarterbacks arguing about last weeks game.

Ok, thats about it. Carry on.

[img]graemlins/lurk.gif[/img]

[fisheromen]

Hey Cool, did you know that if we divided Alaska then Texas would be the third largest state?

I agree to a point. However, as pointed out above, the homeschoolers do have one solution (which is working for a portion of the population). It could also be argued that innovations with charter schools provide another solution. Private schools are an expensive alternative that the average Joe can't afford unless they sacrifice ALOT for their kids education. I personally don't feel that these latter two address some of the problems inherent with schooling in general.

I don't pretend to know all the ins and outs of decentralization of public education from Federal to State and from State to community but one thing I am sure of is that it would encourage innovation in curriculum and in the science of teaching. Beyond that, education could be more reflective of individual communities and more directly financially accountable to those carrying most of the funding load.

That's why I'm so interested in the potential school board members who have thought through changes which will decentralize the PPS. If we could elect a majority (4 of 7) of them in this election we might actually see some innovative and fiscally responsible change (for a change!)

[Cool Texan]

Home-schooling is expensive for families too. When my wife and I have kids, if we choose to home-school them, it would cost our household close to $50k a year in foregone salary from her job. We could afford it thankfully, but that is still an expensive education.

[True]

Homeschool kids?

"Ever notice that Homeschoolers are consistantly out scoring the 'traditionally' schooled on nearly all testing and academemic contests?"

Not by a long shot where I come from. Do you have an objective source for this?

"Homeschoolers tend to (have) a lower teen pregnancy rate,"

I would think so. They don't interact with many peers throughout the day.

"are more socially adjusted (if you include interaction between generations),"

And if we don't include the generations?

"graduate sooner,"

What constitutes graduation requirements? What are the state tests that they are being given?

"and have overall higher self esteem."

It has to do with the class size.

I am a public school teacher and will proudly take my children to school when the time comes. Unfortunately some parents are just expecting the public school system to take over the child's entire education and not using it as a supplement to what they should also be teaching them at home (i.e. teen pregnancy, social manners, self esteem). We can't do it alone. It's not one or the other. It's both!

True

[Straydog]

Originally posted by pdxkevin:
Ever notice that Homeschoolers are consistantly out scoring the 'traditionally' schooled on nearly all testing and academemic contests?

Homeschoolers tend to a lower teen pregnancy rate, are more socially adjusted (if you include interaction between generations), graduate sooner, and have overall higher self esteem.

If we truly care about the kids, then we MUST do what's best for them.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Please share your sources.

[Straydog]

Originally posted by Cool Texan:

2) It seems that whenever I hear things like "Time dosen't allow me to waste it on proving you wrong", it generally means that you can not prove someone wrong on a topic, and that you are merely guessing based on some incomplete knowledge. Hard to argue if you "cant" or wont state facts.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">CT,

Yea, that may generally be the case. However, note I made my first post at 5:46 AM, made a check in at 8:16 after two hours of office work on my way out the door and am now responding again at 9:20PM........... some of us are indeed too busy to waste much time here.

To put your mind at ease concerning the availabitly of facts on the topic, here is a starter for you Google search...... education and poverty in inner city schools

There has been a lot of research on this and I have read some of it in the past.

[ 05-08-2003, 08:52 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[pdxkevin]

Many article from all over the web. I should have bookmarked them.
The Scholastic Achievement and Demographic Charaterists of Home School Students in 1998 is a good place to start. It is an independant study by Lawrence M. Rudner, Ph. D.

Not everyone will homeschool, so we need to fix or replace the system that we have. Throwing more money at it is not the answer. We need creative and innovative ways to overhaul the whole system. So far, cuts are being made in areas whch scare the most people. Thinning out the top of this system is a great place to start.

Using the rose bush example: only through propper pruning and care do we get the best roses. A bush left to growth out of control wastes more resources on expanding its branched and putting out more leaves than would otherwise be spent producing quality flowers. It isn't a mater of adding more water and fertilizer. You have to trim the bush and keep it more localized and under control.

Side Note ~ It is nice to be able to freely discuss our different views without any personal attacks. Open and honest debates are stimulating and constructive. Thanks for the opportunity.

[ 05-08-2003, 07:14 AM: Message edited by: pdxkevin ]

[Cool Texan]

Stray, I never questioned the existence of facts. I questioned whether or not you are intimately aware of them....meaning, more aware than just of their presence.

Carry on folks. I'll go back to lurking on this topic...and voting No on this measure.

[img]graemlins/lurk.gif[/img]

[Straydog]

PDX,

I agree we need to start at the top of the "bush".

In my experience, the top is in Salem as we have cut administration considerably in increments since measure 5 came about.

We will be cutting a little more at the administrative level for next year but the reality is there little fat left in our district's administration budget.

[Straydog]

Cool,

I have researched this a bit. I don't know if I am "intimatley" aware of them but the facts and I have at the very least a plutonic relationship! :grin:

[lost_sailor]

PLUTO

PLATO

[ 05-08-2003, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: lost_sailor ]

[redfish89]

Support your schools!!!!It's your future...

Get rid of the bureaucracy in Oregon.
What Oregon needs to do is set up a new tax structure. Just my .02...

[pdxkevin]

Originally posted by lost_sailor:
PLUTO

PLATO

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">

[Cool Texan]

Play



[ 05-09-2003, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: Cool Texan ]