More Cougar news.

[Straydog]

Cougar legislation

My bet is that many of the same people that keep trying to overturn the will of the voters on this issue are the very same people that huff and puff whenever there is an attempt to raise more revenue by saying such things as "don't they know what no means?.......why do they insist on ignoring the will of the voters?......why do they keep asking for more money over and over and over?"... [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img]

I frankly would much rather our Reps. be spending thier time dealing with our very real budget crisis rather than worrying about the 1 in 25million chance that someone, for the first time in Oregon's history, might be killed by a cougar. Further, these people keep ignoring that the harvest rate has climbed despite the ban on bait and dogs.

[ 04-24-2003, 07:06 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[blackdog]

Great time to be voting this down, as another cougar was spotted earlier this week in town here in Bend. Within the last 6 months, they had to shoot a cougar that was hiding out in someones backyard in the middle of town, and now another sighting, not far from where that took place. How long until someone's child end's up cougar food?

[Straydog]

So, why do you need dogs and bait? If they are in the back yard it hardly seems sporting or necessary to bait or hound them for protection.

As noted, we are harvesting more than we were pre-ban so just what difference is it going to make to overturn this law?

[Smj]

In my opinion they can do anything they want with the law, but if you're using dogs for cougar and bear it can't be called a sport!
And please don't show stories in the news or magazines of people calling themselves "sportsmen" standing under a dog treed cougar or bear shooting it off a limb at 20 feet!

Smj

[sliverslinger]

I have hunted bear and cougar all my life with dogs and bait until some dork came in with videos and showed them on TV to get all of the regular people that dont hunt to get them to vote to stop the baiting and dog hunting. Those videos weren't even from this state. Talk about set-up.
It is a sport, you dont get every bear or cougar that you find with your dogs.
They need to bring it back but we have this quote governer now who wont let it pass. If they run it through again and again, sooner or later he will not be able to veto it anymore. Then the rest of us can hunt the way we want to. We sold all of our dogs once the stupid law was passed, but it wouldn't take much to start again. How many people out there do you really think stopped using dogs anyway? or baiting on their private property? I know a few that still do it. I have seen them driving down the road with their dogs in the box and then see them disappear up in the woods.
Dont let me get to ya, just my .02

[Straydog]

SS,

Your example of the people still hound hunting in violation of the law, is representative of what many consider the majority of participants of this 'sport'.

I have worked around many of them for years. Many of them are not people you would want dating your daughter and are indeed, much like the people shown in the infamaous video. Your sharing that many are still doing this sort of thing only validates why I will never support bringing it back. It is a sport that has too many people of with bad character participating, legally or not.

The initiate process or legislature is not where fish and game management should be decided

[Hoosier Daddy]

keta [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

[DanS]

The initiate process or legislature is not where fish and game management should be decided

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">But, would you say the same thing if a Net-Ban initiative was on the ballot? I think I could live with some ballot-box management in that situation........

DS,
Yes

[GutshotApe]

[quote]Originally posted by DanS:

......would you say the same thing if a Net-Ban initiative was on the ballot? I think I could live with some ballot-box management in that situation........

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Didn't an initiative come close a few years ago in WA? 696? Except it would have banned ALL comm'l. fishing. I bet a ban on gillnets, only, probably would have passed .

[willametteriveroutlaw]

The unedcuated masses will once again whine because they THINK something is unsporting or unfair, based on liberal propaganda videos, with no real expirience or sound facts to base there opinion on. MMMMMMM poor kitty cats. The reality is that hound hunting for cats is much more ethical and sporting than most think. What the masses don't see is the 4 hour hike to finally find a treed cat or bear, or the hunter getting to decide to kill a Big Tom instead of a female with cubs.

Stray dog: More animals may be being harvested, but 99% are by bumbling hunters who happen upon one and shoot it regardless of sex, size, or age.

SMJ: you cite how unethical it is to shoot a Cougar or bear 20 yards out of a tree. Then Let me ask you is blasting away at one 300 yards away with no knowledge of what it is other than a bear or cat more ethical?. So let me ask you again which is more ethical 1 shot 1 kill, or a wounded animal?

To those who so Vehemiently (sp) oppose hunting cougars and bears with dogs,What is the difference then of hunting birds with dogs? It is the exact same theory. Thats right, cougars are poor defenseless animals, while upland birds are wiley smart Dangerous creatures?

[ 04-24-2003, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: willametteriveroutlaw ]

[King Fisher]

[img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] This happened in a southern state from us and now there are several cases of homicides and stalkings by cougars. If you had children and we're near some of these sightings in town, how would you feel. God created these animals to be harvested. With today's management, I think this can be accomplished with baiting or at least bringing dog's back in the picture. If not for sport, then for safety issues. Are cougars more important than people- Are we putting them before us? Think about it........

[J.Slay]

If the hunters and hunting groups are crying then use the initiative process to let the voters vote on it again. It won't pass. For sure we will see "conservative" ads of pictures of cougars in neighborhoods (probably new ndevelopments in cougar habitat)..... Oh my god "Are our kids safe?" and other scare tactics. If there are more cougars and they are supposedly not afraid of humans anymore then why not just go out in the woods and sit there with your guns and let them come to you? Seems a waste of time to bring dogs or bait.

J.Slay,
Politics don't belong in the management of fish and game.

STG,
What you should have posted was that mountan lions are not humans and if (when?) they kill a human it isn't homicide, it is survival. They're just doing what big cats do.


I feel that it should be legal to harvest bear and cat with the help of hounds. The hound men that I knew put lots of training and effort into their hunting. What next? No bird dogs?

[sliverslinger]

yeah, pretty soon you wont be able to use a hook to take a fish. These people out there that oppose this stuff have probally never tried to do any of it. They will take away the dogs for birds, the fishing hooks, the duck blinds because the ducks cant see you until its too late. the elk calls because the elk sometimes come to them. BUT AT LEAST I CAN STILL BAIT DEER IN OREGON.if you dont believe me, LOOK IT UP!
this whole thing in the world is ridiculous. lets keep the polititions out of the fish and game dept.

[Wood N' Fish]

Straydog--The reason the harvest rate has gone up, is that there are MORE of the furry little kitties, than ther were before the dog ban! It used to be extremely rare to see a cougar in the wild, even by the most avid outdoors person. Hunting with dogs is a management tool that was and still should be in use. Cougars have never been an endangered specie in Oregon as I recall.

[STGRule]

Wood n Fish: If I remember correctly, the population trend was on the upswing before the ban took place. With the increase in the deer populations, the predator population will also rise. Its just nature.

[Silver Hilton]

There is an inevitable clash that willhappen between cougars and people. Cougar populations are on an upswing, because of a strong deer population and less hunting (at least here in washington). There have been several incidents of cougars apparently stalking children in areas on the edge of Issaquah, a suburb. This is hardly a rural area, but neither is it downtown Manhatten.

Cougars have been well documented to aggresively stalk and kill humans. Not commonly, but it's not real news when it happens. Some years back, an adult jogger was killed in the foothills around Denver.

It's nice to say that the cougars were here first, and we should co-exist, but that just isn't realistic. Co-existing means that occasionally a child is going to get mauled or killed. Face it, our society doesn't tolerate that risk.

Baiting a cougar on the property that the troubling animal was seen has the advantage of being highly likely to get the offending animal, as opposed to some random animal that may or may not be the trouble maker. I have no experience in hunting with hounds, so I can't comment. However, I can't see that hunting with hounds is ethically a lot different than other forms of hunting. Going into the endeavor with more than tooth in nail is inherently disadvantageous for the animal. Dogs are just one more advantage. I don't have a problem with using guns for hunting, therefore, I have no problem with using dogs as well.

[crabbait]

STG - You are correct, however, the rest of the equation is that when the cats natural prey takes a nosedive (as deer populations are now) the cougar will prey on any other specie that is available to avoid starvation.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that the process is bad. It is natural and real. I don't have a probelm with the fact that the wild places just got a little wilder. Natural selection is a good thing.

[STGRule]

crabbait: When the prey base takes its nosedive, there will be a period of time when we will have starving predators. That means predator cats close to populations and we will be forced to kill them to keep people safe. It is the natural process and it is reality. I guess killing them quickly is better than them starving to death.
Hunting them is probably not a bad thing, although I have a problem with some people not fully utilizing the kill. It just makes me unhappy when humans have to manage natural processes. We tend to do a poor job.

[fishgirl]

Homicides by cougars? God created them to be harvested? Hmmmmm.....

[norms gone fishing too]

we are taking more because there are more. and they are no longer afraid of humans the one i took last deer seaon saw me and just laid there sunning herself. the cougars i was befor the ban were flashes in brush you never got a real good look now they stand there with no fear. when camping i used to take my gun because of a few people. they no longer are the primary reason cougars and bears are.
If the bad law that was past were to be put to a vote now it would fail and fail by a wide amount

norm

[STGRule]

Homicides by cougars? What a novel thought process. Attributing human emotion and intelligence to an animal. Not withstanding the fact that getting into the car every day will kill more people in a week than cougars will kill in a century, it could be a dangerous thing these homicidal cougars.

[ 04-24-2003, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: STGRule ]

[King Fisher]

GO ahead and compare cougar attacks to car accidents, there are many other comparisons we can make. It just adds to unnecessary losses of life. It will get worse.

[Smj]

"SMJ: you cite how unethical it is to shoot a Cougar or bear 20 yards out of a tree. Then Let me ask you is blasting away at one 300 yards away with no knowledge of what it is other than a bear or cat more ethical?. So let me ask you again which is more ethical 1 shot 1 kill, or a wounded animal?

To those who so Vehemiently (sp) oppose hunting cougars and bears with dogs,What is the difference then of hunting birds with dogs? It is the exact same theory. Thats right, cougars are poor defenseless animals, while upland birds are wiley smart Dangerous creatures?"

Willametteriveroutlaw, I never said hunting with dogs was unethical, I said it is not sport. If hunting like that is your thing then so be it. Let's say you love the sport of salmon fishing, would you consider it a "sport" to walk one to five miles to a narrow spot in a river where you then use your net to net your two fish limit? You could choose male or female?
On the next comparison. When your bird dogs immobilize the bird so you can walk up to it and shoot it, then, that's "the exact same theory"

Smj

[crabbait]

SMJ: Your analogy will hold water as soon as cougars get wings. :blush:

[The Fishing Geek]

Vehemently.

[Straydog]

Originally posted by Silver Hilton:
It's nice to say that the cougars were here first, and we should co-exist, but that just isn't realistic. Co-existing means that occasionally a child is going to get mauled or killed. Face it, our society doesn't tolerate that risk.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">More children have been and will continue to be mauled and in many cases killed by pet dogs than ever have or will be by wild cougars. Why do we tolerate, heck encourage, that co-existance?

Perhaps this is the underlying problem, hypocrisy in mass?

STG,

You are right in my opinion. There will be a cycle just as there are in most things in nature. The cougar populations will stabilize and eventually drop again, is my guess.

Our arrogant mindset that we can manage nature better than Mom is very vividly proven false with the situation we have created for Anadromous fish.

Someone please, help me train my dog to run (fly) a pheasant to exhaustion and have it land in a tree waiting for me to catch up and kill it! Same with Quail. It would be handy if they would keep the whole covey together so I can get my limit out of one tree. Good grief........

Woodnfish, I understand the reason the harvest has gone up is partialy because of population increase. (dropping the price of the tag dramaticly might have played into this as well [img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img] ) Regardless, the evidence is pretty strong that these animals can be harvested and controlled by hunting without hounds. Perhaps a few years of "two for one" tags or some other management tool would help speed up the cycle and get the numbers down?

[ 04-25-2003, 07:18 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[Smj]

OK Crabby, how'bout shooting fish in a ....

Oh nevermind.

Smj

[Silver Hilton]

Originally posted by Straydog:

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">More children have been and will continue to be mauled and in many cases killed by pet dogs than ever have or will be by wild cougars. Why do we tolerate, heck encourage, that co-existance?

Perhaps this is the underlying problem, hypocrisy in mass?
[/QUOTE]

Stray, I agree that dogs kill more kids, in total. I further agree that hysteria is unwarranted. However, the presense of a single dog near one's child, is statistically far less dangerous than a cougar.

However, my point is not particularly whether the position of society is rational. If we were being rational, we would be banning bikes, which kill far and away, by an order of magnitude, more children than any other childhood accident. Cougar killings are sensational, so we overreact to them. It is unlikely that this societal behavior will change.

[Straydog]

SH,

Ok, good point......... I did indeed miss the 'rational' aspect of things. Unfortunatley, it seems rationality is lacking in many of our social arguments.

[Hoosier Daddy]

Does anyone remember the backlash immediately following the passage of the law? What I mean is that IMMEDIATELY after it passed, people claimed to be seeing more cougars. And I mean within weeks, well short of the gestation period of any cougars that were pregnant at the time it passed!

What I'm getting at is that since its passage, many who opposed the bill became more sensitive and are looking a little harder. Nowadays, I certainly believe that there are more than there were. However, I will never forget the fact that so many people believed the jump was immediate, as in the very next day.

[The Fishing Geek]

Kinda like the shark attacks a couple summers ago?

If you look hard enough, you will find it.

[Hoosier Daddy]

Yeah, with the difference being that people freak out about sharks because they have seen Jaws too many times. Whereas people freak out about cougars for other reasons....

[Empire]

For those of you who don't know, you cannot take a Mountain Lion in California. Thank the voters in San Francisco and Los Angeles for that one. Shortly after the law passed, a female jogger was killed by a cougar near Placerville (20 minutes from me). She was almost beheaded. The cougar was found and killed by the Department of Fish and Game. Its cubs were found and given to zoos, one cub is in the Folsom zoo. It is easy to tell when a mountain lion is living near a residential area. All of the kitty cats disappear. I seems mountain lions enjoy eating them between meals.

A corrections officer was turkey hunting (archery) near Ione (about 45 minutes from where I live). He was in all camo, at the base of a tree, calling turkeys. He was calling turkeys when he saw a lion stalking him. He stuck an arrow in the mountain lion, killing it in self defense. The department of fish and game had an easy time finding it was self defense, as the hunter stuck the arrow right down the lions throat (at 20 feet)!

The lions do not fear humans. All of the bike trails are posted to watch for them. Every year or so a warning goes out when a lion is seen in the area. Trust me, it is no fun having kids and mountain lions in the same neighborhood.

[sinker]

As far as the issue of harvesting more cougars now without hounds vs before with hounds. You're overlooking a couple simple things

A) There's alot more of them out there (OK, this wasn't overlooked but I had to say it again)

B) There's alot more people hunting them now. It's not just the guys that happen to spot one during deer season. There's alot of hunters aggresively targeting cougars with calls and are getting quite successful.

Why did they start hunting cougars so aggressively?? Because when I was a kid you were lucky to see ONE in the wild in your whole life. Now they're coming out of the woodwork. These guys wouldn't have had a prayer 15 years ago of hunting cougars without hounds but now that the population is exploding they're having some success.

[STGRule]

I believe that the bait and dog ban had little if anything to do with the current population of big cats. It has everything to do with the prey base. The predator population will level out (if it hasn't already) and be dependent on the deer population (albeit in an out of sync manner). People see more cats because there are more cats. It would be interesting to know what the hunter success rate is and the actual number of animals harvested compared to 15 years ago. With more cats, we will have more human interactions. Re-instating the bait and dogs may increase the harvest but the only thing that will truly bring the population down is fewer deer. I'm not sure about cougars but most other predators have a compensation factor built into the population. If there is more food and territory they have larger litters more often. Just harvesting them will not likely bring the population down very much. They will just compensate.

[GutshotApe]

Originally posted by STGRule:
If there is more food and territory they have larger litters more often. Just harvesting them will not likely bring the population down very much. They will just compensate.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">In August 1999 I encountered 5 cougars at once, at dusk about 2 miles up the Chewaucan above Paisley. An adult female, I guess, and four 40 lb cubs/kittens. They were coming down for water and were crossing the road as I approached. The female ran up the hillside out of the headlights as soon as I drove up...but the 4 youngsters stood there on the roadway 10 to 20 feet in front of my pickup for 30 seconds or more...staring into the highbeams...of course, no camera was accessible in time.

Anyway, I bet those 5 cats killed & ate a lot of deer in that canyon...but there must have been quite a few deer there to have allowed 4 cougar kittens to survive.

[MPT]

Animals don't ruin the environment, Man does!! [img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img]

MPT,
Not always true.