Why be skeptical of timber industry?

[Straydog]

These are the people that courted GW Bush so hard during his campaign. These are the people that have his ear as he reshapes the way the timber industry does business. Do you think it will be a good change?

Can't trust 'em!

[The Fishing Geek]

It's not like the timber industry invented anti-trust activities, nor is it fair to broadly condemn the whole industry simply based upon what Weyerhaeuser did.

That goes for any company in any industry, really.

[skein]

The pendulum is swinging, StrayDog, and you don't like it. Well, I didn't like it when my friends lost their jobs and their homes and their way of life over a trumped-up "cause" wrapped in spotted feathers.

Now you'll get to see the other side. Manage it.

It sure beats watching our forests burn.

Skein

[The Fishing Geek]

Aren't forest fires part of the natural cycle?

Why must we have a pendulum? Why can't we have a happy medium?

[lost_sailor]

Harvest the hatchery trees, release the wild trees - you'll get no protest from me.

HANDS OFF THE NATIVE FORESTS!

[Hoosier Daddy]

Not have a pendulum? You're kidding, right Geek? We do everything that way, all to the left or all to the right. Just venting, this is the problem with so much of our society. The extremes tend to run the show.

SD. You had a good point going, right up until you had to go political. Maybe a slightly less confrontational approach would bring more people around, aside from folks with strong timber backgrounds that is :smile:

[Straydog]

Geek,

I agree with the fact that we can't judge all members of the timber industry by the actions of this company. However, I don't believe it is the owner of the small operation that is in the pocket of the timber lobby in Washington DC. I think it pretty close to accurate to say this is the most politicaly influencial member of the timber industry.

As noted, it is the operatives of these big companies that are helping form policy in Washington.

Skein,

You need to look further back and remember I was there before the pendulum swung in favor of fish. I was there when the pendulum swing that favored the timber industry was knocking sporting goods stores, charter operations, motels, restaurants and other tourism businesses out of business.

Even people in the industry admit they were over cutting and could not sustain the levels of harvest they enjoyed through the '70's into the '80's.

The environmentalists were the messanger. That does not change the message.

The fires were worse due to us putting them out for the last century and the abundance of underbrush due in part to poor forest managment in the past. Fire is ineed an important part of the natural world.

I agree, why can't we find the pendulum in the middle, but with people such as the management of Weyehauser in the mix, I am not confident we will do that.

HD,

The Southern Oregon Timber Industry Associtaion alone collected a half million dollars for the right to meet with GW Bush when he was campaigning in Portland, yet you say I should not "go political"? In my opinion, that is a naive approach to reality.

[ 04-22-2003, 08:32 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[skein]

Another thread where you are not going to change me and I am not going to change you.

Sorry I bit, but sometimes that environmentalist-wrapped kwikfish is so tantalizing.... :grin:

Goodnight, all.

Skein

[Hoosier Daddy]

Originally posted by Straydog:

HD,

The Southern Oregon Timber Industry Associtaion alone collected a half million dollars for the right to meet with GW Bush when he was campaigning in Portland, yet you say I should not "go political"? In my opinion, that is a naive approach to reality.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Can't say naive.
If you want to read what I said as a slam go ahead. I merely was suggesting that you are turning a lot of people off to your argument right off the bat by making it sound more like a political argument against GW et al. than a problem with forest practices. Now, if you feel the need to pick the bigger, and un-win-able battle to go after the Republican party and GW, that's perfectly fine. However, I think your arguments would be better served if addressed specifically at the timber industry. I would also like to point out that I don't disagree with you either, it was a SUGGESTION. Now, as I have used the words political, Republican, GW, naive, battle, and disagree in the same post, I think I have officially fallen off the wagon, and I will shut the hell up now.


Good day....

[Straydog]

Skein,

I understand the passion of these arguments from both sides.

One thing to remember, as much chagrin as you feel from the actions of the environmentalists, they make pretty good ancestors.

I remember all too well how ticked I was in the late '60's when they decided to make the Rogue Wild and Scenic. I no longer could throw my raft in and float the wild Rogue without a permit whenever I wanted to. I no longer could drop a tree for fire wood along the river while camping. It made me furious!

Now, 30 some years later, when I drift our river within five miles of town and have no homes developed to waters edge and can get a feel for the great outdoors just out of town, I think it was the best thing we could have done.

[Straydog]

HD,

I took nothing you said as a slam and am not offended by your comments.

I have been doing this awhile and, again in my opinion, feel it is naive to look anywhere but at the top. The Bush administration is attacking our forest policies as we type. I spend plenty of time letting my Republican officials know how I feel. (consequently, I don't get invited to many party Tea's but I can live with that)

A friend of mine that worked as a staffer for a State Senator once advised me to never lose sight of the fact that "politics is indeed a game and if you are serious, you must always play to win". My experience tells me he is oh so right......

[Hoosier Daddy]

Okey Dokey

[crabbait]

Before the alerts start: In context, "naive" was used to describe actions. No individual or group was called naive.

The difference may seem insignificant. Consider these statements:

"I can tell by the way you approached this that you are naive."

and

"You approached this in a naive manner."

The first statement wrongly assumes that the author could tell by the persons approach that the person is a naive individual. Name calling based on less than complete facts about an individual. Offensive.

The second statement makes a judgement expressing an opinion about the persons approach. Not a judgement about the individual. The opinion and judgement may be incorrect and the person may take offense, but he has not been called naive. The statement referred to his approach.

Just my opinion.

[surfbum]

Sounds like we have a few anti-capitalist on this thread. The suite against Weyehaeuser was extortion from the beginning. So its unfair for "Big Business" to compete, utilizing their advantages of scale. Who ever said life was fair. Was Weyerhaeuser to compete with one hand behind their back to make it "fair". The small mills had failed to manage and invest in their own futures. Survival of the fittest is an unyieldable law of nature. Frivilous lawsuit or not.

Surfbum

[Born to be Wild]

I'm in longview right now and and quickly responded before I went on a delivery.

The one important item I forgot to bring up regarding the charter trade which was effected in most part by there lack of coho fishing was the over fishing. You can't rightfully blame this all on timber. If you look back and see just a few years ago the effect on the wild coho from the combined sport and commercial fishing on them in the salt it is amazing we have any left today.

Look into it. It was pretty ugly.

Dan

[Straydog]

GSA,

Pretty simple, reduce restrictions on public ground and the restirctions on private will be relaxed as well. Not rocket science. Have a nice nap?

DBD,

I have asked you to back your accusations towards me with facts in the past with no luck but being an optimist, will try one more time.

Please tell me when I have ever hinted, implied, suggested or otherwise made reference that I felt logging was the only element of our fish declines.

Fear not, I will not forget the dams. I have many, many hours invested over five years fighting to remove Savage Rapids Dam on the Rogue. Trust me, I have not forgotten the dams.

[GutshotApe]

Originally posted by Straydog:
GSA,

Pretty simple, reduce restrictions on public ground and the restirctions on private will be relaxed as well. Not rocket science.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Apparently, for some, it IS rocket science.

SD,

I have ever hinted, implied, suggested or otherwise made reference that I felt logging was the only element of our fish declines

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Yes, the shortage of 70 degree + water killed off all of the fish.
Trinity river water belongs to California and they can do what they want with it.

[GutshotApe]

Originally posted by Straydog:
These are the people that courted GW Bush so hard during his campaign. These are the people that have his ear as he reshapes the way the timber industry does business. Do you think it will be a good change?

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">So StrayDog, tell me why Weyerhaeuser, the largest timberland owner in OR/WA, would want to see increased timber sales from federal lands? As you may know, Weyco exports some of its own logs so it is prohibited from buying federal timber in most of the areas it operates...therefore, it seems unlikely that Weyco would be lobblying hard for any big increase in the USFS or BLM cut. Any increase in the federal log supply would tend to drive prices down, wouldn't it?

So what is the connection you are trying to make between the Ross-Simmons/Weyco lawsuit concerning alder log supplies...and changes in federal timberland policy that have little or nothing to do with that issue?

This should be interesting.

[Born to be Wild]

Harvest the hatchery trees, release the wild trees - you'll get no protest from me.

HANDS OFF THE NATIVE FORESTS!

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">No protest from me neither Sailor on that one!

I was there when the pendulum swing that favored the timber industry was knocking sporting goods stores, charter operations, motels, restaurants and other tourism businesses out of business.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">You might want to talk to several biologist Straydog since you seem to be on the anti logging band wagon and ask them what the biggest problems are with wild fish where there are problems. I personally feel hatchery fish are a bigger problem with wild fish than habitat problems from everything I have heard or read. And some habitat problems are caused by non logging practices as is the case in Tillamook where channelization on behalf of dairey farmers is a habitat problem in the lower rivers. (Simple solution, ban milk).

I know it appears to you by ousting the loggers you will have more fish and sell more sporting goods, but if you use the Oregon Coast for an example where they cut back the hatchery stocking of coho ten fold, we are seeing more fishing and a longer fishery in the ocean this year because of this. Less hatchery fish = more wild fish. Wild coho drives the ocean coho season. A two month season or 88,000 coho whichever comes first due to the rebounding of our wild coho and I might add, with the loggers out in the woods supporting their families.

In this case Straydogie, it amounted to less hatchery fish = more sporting goods sold. I know that is a hard equation to fathom because you probably instintively figure more hatchery = more sporting goods sold. But not in this case!

Dan

PS&gt; Oh, and don't forget about the dams.

[ 04-22-2003, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: DepoeBayDan ]

[Lucky Bamboo]

It's about time somebody took Weyerhauser down a couple of notches. I, for one, would be willing to bet they will appeal, and probably win the appeal! I've seen it happen too many times before. They have the big bucks, and more or less do whatever they want to do. I can site several examples, but the best one is the toxic waste dump Weyerhauser wanted to open on Headquarters Road, right next to Sucker Creek, which is one of the main feeder streams for Silver Lake. We fought and fought to keep them out....make them move their dump to another site (and there were many that would have suited their purpose better)...but, since they had the money, and we didn't....guess who won??? So, now we have strange occurrances happening in the lake....dead fish popping up all over the place...deformed creatures.....strange vegetation appearing. Sounds like their 'toxic waste' is leaching into Sucker Creek. They have their "own" monitoring system.....wonder what the true readings really are? Sorry, I just don't care for this company's practices, and you can't convince me this anti-trust thing is any different. Just wait and see....they have the bucks and they will get their own way, eventually. Kinda reminds me of the Sportsmen vs Gillnetters.

[Straydog]

I understand your frustration Lucky Bamboo.

The scarey part is that there are too many people that will say things like "you just don't like capitalists" or "it is only a temporary destruction of life as we know it" and try to pass thier actions off as acceptable.

[GutshotApe]

LB - Well, what is it you're complaining about? What "toxins" are being leached into the lake? What, exactly, are the ill effects you're seeing? How about a few facts? :whazzup:

Isn't Silver Lake a naturally eutrophic water body? How many of those hundreds of lakeside cabins & dwellings have failing or nonexistent septic systems? Wasn't there a severe problem with exotic waterweeds taking over the lake 10-15 yrsago?...so bad there were few open water areas left? Talk about environmental impact . Didn't the locals then overstock the lake with grass carp that ate up everything in sight? Were these the strange happenings you saw?

I know several people who work for Weyco (I once did, too....hand applied phenoxy herbicides to maple sprouts in the Sucker Creek drainage in 1973...maybe you think that was part of the problem as well?) in the Longview woods and mills. Those people live, work & play in the community...they're not intentionally crapping in their own nest. My brother works in a Weyco lab testing & monitoring, among other things, pulpmill discharges into the Columbia River...ensuring they stay in compliance with the regs. Its really easy to slam the big company for perceived sins....how about a few specific examples of Weyco's bad behavior instead of vague claims? :whazzup:

[Straydog]

GSA said,
"Apparently, for some, it IS rocket science. "

No facts. You are always asking for facts. Care to present some yourself or is just meant to inflame and incite?? :whazzup:

[ 04-23-2003, 07:21 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[Straydog]

Originally posted by Keta:
SD,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica"> I have ever hinted, implied, suggested or otherwise made reference that I felt logging was the only element of our fish declines

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Yes, the shortage of 70 degree + water killed off all of the fish.
Trinity river water belongs to California and they can do what they want with it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Keta,

What is this supposed to mean? :whazzup:

Is there some substance in there that could be seen as part of this topic or are you just throwing stones???? :whazzup:

[GutshotApe]

Originally posted by Straydog:
These are the people that courted GW Bush so hard during his campaign. These are the people that have his ear as he reshapes the way the timber industry does business. Do you think it will be a good change?

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Go back to your first post SD...you still haven't answered my question. What is the connection between the Ross-Simmons/Weyerhaeuser anti-trust lawsuit involving the red alder log market...and GW Bush's "reshaping of the way the timber industry does business"? Wasn't your post merely a simple, gratiutious and inflammatory attempt at a slam against "the timber industry"? :whazzup:

[The Fishing Geek]

Originally posted by Straydog:
GSA said,
"Apparently, for some, it IS rocket science. "

No facts. You are always asking for facts. Care to present some yourself or is just meant to inflame and incite?? :whazzup:

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I didn't read that as an attack, more that he was agreeing with you. Maybe I misread it...

[GutshotApe]

[quote]Originally posted by The Fishing Geek:

I didn't read that as an attack, more that he was agreeing with you. Maybe I misread it...

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">You're correct, TFG, it wasn't intended to be an attack...but I don't agree with what he wrote.

For many, many people forest management might as well be rocket science. Most people don't know what they're seeing when they see it...and too many people are willing to condemn others for perceived bad behavior...without any evidence, facts or examples to support their views.

All I am asking for is something other than more vague charges and implications...without any specifics to back 'em up. Go back and read LB's and SD's posts...see what I mean?

[Straydog]

My original post was to point out that the operatives of the one of the largest timber industry entities in the world are not honest, according to the courts.

I then went on to point out that the operatives of the timber industry (I think it safe to assume the management of the one of the largest timber companies in the world are some of the operatives of the industry) are and have been lobbying the Bush Administration for reform in the timber industry guidelines.

I believe that changing of the Northwest Forest plan will allow for changes on private land as well as public.

I believe it safe to assume that if the industry is succesful in lessoning the buffer zone requirements on public ground (just one example) it is a very solid bet to that these same weakening of protections will be applied to private ground as well.

The intent was to demonstrate that those working with the Bush administration on timber policy adjustments are not honest, again, according to the courts.

Geek,

I don't know what it was to mean. That is why I asked what the intent of the statement was and asked for some facts in order to help me decipher the meaning.

[ 04-23-2003, 07:46 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[The Fishing Geek]

Cool. I just wanted to make sure that things don't get personal in this thread. Keep it above the belt and all.

[Straydog]

Originally posted by GutshotApe:

..and too many people are willing to condemn others for perceived bad behavior...without any evidence, facts or examples to support their views.

All I am asking for is something other than more vague charges and implications...without any specifics to back 'em up. Go back and read LB's and SD's posts...see what I mean? [/QB]

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">GSA,

The article I posted was all about the FACT that this timber industry power was found guilty in a court of law of antitrust activities. I am not sure how I can point out anything much more specific or factual.

Perhaps we are back to the "rocket science" issue? :grin:

[ 04-23-2003, 07:52 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[GutshotApe]

Originally posted by Straydog:
I believe that changing of the Northwest Forest plan will allow for changes on private land as well as public.

I believe...........

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Straydog - When you "know" what you're talking about, rather than merely "believing", get back to me.

The NW Forest plan is 100% federal...doesn't apply to state or private land. Any speculation about what changes on federal land would mean to private or state land operations is just that...speculation...and not particularily well informed speculation, at that.

[Straydog]

GSA,

So, as I read your post, my speculation that changing federal guidelines will have indirect implications on private ground as well is just that, speculation and not based on fact.

However, your speculation that changing the federal guidelines will have no implications on private ground is some how based on a higher vision and is there fore more solid speculation than mine?

I just want to make sure I am not misinterpreting your point. If I do interpret your post correctly, I would ask as you do, that you get back to me when you have some facts.

[ 04-23-2003, 08:10 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[GutshotApe]

Originally posted by Straydog:
GSA, your speculation that changing the federal guidelines will have no implications on private ground is some how based on a higher vision and is there fore more solid speculation than mine?

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">It ain't just idle speculation, SD. What I said is true. The changes being talked about (increase harvest, reduce extravagant buffer strips) are on FEDERAL LAND will not apply to state or private land. Period. That's not speculation...its the truth.

State/private forestry rules are a product of state govt...not federal. More non-speculation.

TFG was right...Weyerhaeuser didn't pioneer anti-trust violations. The anti-trust case you posted to prove (I guess?) the basic dishonesty of "The Timber Industry" is a very minor blip in the scheme of things...and proves nothing. Ross-Simmons went belly up because they had no raw material supply of their own...and when the supply crunch came, they got crunched...so they sued Weyco for, apparently, having the foresight to invest in their own timberlands...and for not selling raw materials to them (a competitor) at prices low enough to compete against them. Look around...danged few landless sawmills still operating...is that proof of dishonesty or wrongdoing?

How can you interpret this one case as a general condemnation of an entire industry? :whazzup:

"Can't Trust 'em"??? Indeed!

[Jet Drifter]

Originally posted by Straydog:
The intent was to demonstrate that those working with the Bush administration on timber policy adjustments are not honest, again, according to the courts.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Well, I believe that is kind of below the belt Straydog.

...according to one Portland jury subject to appeal (in a higher court?)

That is also quite a stretch Straydog to suggest that the Bush Administration had ANYTHING to do with Ross-Simmons Longview Mill closing in 2001, just months after Bush taking office. Was it Bush appointed Judges? It wasn't Bush's timber policy.

[GutshotApe]

Originally posted by Straydog:
One thing to remember, as much chagrin as you feel from the actions of the environmentalists, they make pretty good ancestors.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Oh yeah? That's a favorite environmentalist soundbite....but if you think about it, it doesn't make much sense. Most of us probably wouldn't even be alive today or living here in OR/WA if our ancestors were true environmentalists (read: Preservationists). And if they get their way, there won't be very many people making an honest living around here in the future to be thankful for their farsighted, enlightened environmentalist ancestors.

[Lucky Bamboo]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GutshotApe:
[QB] LB - Well, what is it you're complaining about? What "toxins" are being leached into the lake? What, exactly, are the ill effects you're seeing? How about a few facts? :whazzup:

I'm not going to spend a lot of time explaining all of this to you, Gun Shot Ape...I didn't realize I would need to have all the stats, documentation, etc., at the computer to defend what I said. [img]graemlins/icon_argue.gif[/img] I thought I told you what the "ill effects" were already. This is not about Silver Lake, but what Weyerhauser gets away with. I have facts and you have your own opinion. None of what we see in the lake has anything to do with the introduction of the Amur (grass carp) or anything else. It's a waste of time to continue a discussion of this sort....so, I'll excuse myself and find another subject to comment on. :grin:

[GutshotApe]

Originally posted by Lucky Bamboo:
So, now we have strange occurrances happening in the lake....dead fish popping up all over the place...deformed creatures.....strange vegetation appearing. Sounds like their 'toxic waste' is leaching into Sucker Creek.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">LB - Those aren't facts...they're ancedotal observations, at best. How many dead fish? What killed 'em? When? What deformed creatures are you referring to? Did the WA DEQ or WDFW see these dead & deformed creatures? What strange vegetation is appearing? What toxic waste leacheate? Etc, etc.

I remember hearing about the local opposition to Weyco's landfill back when it was started - but haven't heard anything lately. Maybe you're right...maybe it is causing environmental problems...but if so, why aren't we hearing about it from anywhere else? :whazzup:

[Lucky Bamboo]

GSA,

You aren't hearing anything about it....yet. Specimens, water quality analysis, 'observations', as you call them have been given to the proper authorities. A lot of what goes on is not printed in the papers, or made public knowledge....you know that as well as I do. Weyco, to this day, will not provide the interested parties copies of their monitoring as they 'promised' to do before the landfill was even given a 'go'. Why?

Again, you are straying from the original topic. I've fought the battle with Weyco, and I'm not interested in fighting it all over again....with anyone.

[GutshotApe]

Whatever, LB, but it was you who first swerved off topic...not me. :tongue:

[Straydog]

GSA,

I KNOW that it is not practical to think that if the Federal Gov. allows an easing of logging regulations on public ground, large timber companies will not successfully lobby or sue to have an equal opportunity to harvest under the same rules.

I KNOW that it is not practical to think the WeyCo and Boise Cascades of the world are going to sit by quietly while harvest on public land is more leniant than harvest on there land.

I am very confident that either the private land holders will be successful in getting the same rules applied to their lands as to public and/or will begin to utilize public land harvest more than they currently do.

Jet drifter, we can second guess the courts all day. Thus far they have had their day in court and lost.

I said nothing about Bush being involved in this particular case. :whazzup:

GSA,

I gave a specific example of why I think environmentalists make good ancestors. I have no desire to go off on that tangent any further.

[GutshotApe]

Originally posted by Straydog:
GSA,

I KNOW that it is not practical to think the WeyCo and Boise Cascades of the world are going to sit by quietly while harvest on public land is more leniant than harvest on there land.

I gave a specific example of why I think environmentalists make good ancestors.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Your fears are unfounded. What makes you think the federal logging standards are going to be made more lenient than the state FPA standards? Federal restrictions are so far beyond state rules now there is little likelyhood of your scenario occurring. IMO.

What was the ancestral example you refer to? :whazzup:

[Straydog]

Time will tell...

The example was the Wild and Scenic Rivers Act on the Rogue.

[Born to be Wild]

&lt;Straydog&gt; I have asked you to back your accusations towards me with facts in the past with no luck but being an optimist, will try one more time.

Please tell me when I have ever hinted, implied, suggested or otherwise made reference that I felt logging was the only element of our fish declines.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">OK, now that I’m back home, what does this statement imply?

&lt;Straydog&gt; I was there when the pendulum swing that favored the timber industry was knocking sporting goods stores, charter operations, motels, restaurants and other tourism businesses out of business.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Whoops! Sounds like you were attacking and blaming timber industries too me! ???

Let’s see, pendulum swing that favored timber industry was knocking sporting goods stores, charter operations, motels, restaurants and other tourism businesses out of business.

Hum…, hinted, implied, suggested or otherwise?

Did I ever mention "overfishing"?
Did I ever mention "over exploitation"?

Nope, nobody can understand my question or “accusations” of you being a left wing liberal “republican” either!

Dan

[ 04-25-2003, 12:59 AM: Message edited by: DepoeBayDan ]

[Straydog]

Dan,

Focus Bud, focus........The thread is about the timber industry. See thread title, original post and all responses. [img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img] (except yours making false assumption) Thus, the focus is the on the timber industry.

Were the thread about things like dams and "over exploitation", I would have reason to discuss those things as well.

AS for not getting answers in the past; in a couple of different threads, one possibly being the Tillamook one, not sure, lots going on in my life besides this diversion, you said something to the effect that "everything" I write makes me sound like a "liberal democrat" despite the fact that I "claim" to be a Republican. I twice or maybe three times asked for specific examples of what I had said to prompt that claim. Twice or perhaps three times you ignored the request for examples to back your claim.

[ 04-25-2003, 06:31 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[Born to be Wild]

No biggie Straydog. I just don't remember a single post when you were on the same side of the fence with us right wingers. Seems you always side with the left and that is fine but just doesn't seem to fit the republican mold. I don't need to go back and look up your old post because it is all of them if I remember correctly.

As far as focusing on this thread you yourself brought up this:

Skein,

You need to look further back and remember I was there before the pendulum swung in favor of fish. I was there when the pendulum swing that favored the timber industry was knocking sporting goods stores, charter operations, motels, restaurants and other tourism businesses out of business.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I was just addressing or focusing on the statement made by you on this thread. I felt it was misleading.

You don't seem to be too concerned about the negative impacts that hatchery fish have on wild fish (a well documented fact ), and yet you are always attacking the timber industry.

I don't have any direct interest in the timber industry, but have met many a fine logger in my days and some of them on the rivers fishing. Keep in mind that these are real people just like you and me and they have families to support just like you and me and probably most of them are hunters and fishermen and support the economy and buy sporting goods also. These are real people not just an industry. :grin:

[Scruffy Bearded Varmint]

Being a new kid on the block, let me first give you my position statement then let me tell you why I am skeptical of the timber industry.

I believe we need farmers and farming. I believe we need ranchers and ranching. I believe we need loggers and logging. And I believer we need miners and mining. I do not, however, believe that the approaches of the past will continue to serve us in the future. Nor do I believe most environmentalists operate out of altruism or that all business owners are out to destroy the earth.

On the issue of timber, I believe that it is not logging that destroys our land or our streams but rather the methods used.

I once worked on a documentary film on logging. I discovered there is a small logging company in Southern Oregon That has continually harvested trees from the same land for well over 100 years. The yield never diminishes. The stream's still run clear and support a healthy, diversified ecosystem The people working for the company still have their jobs. And the company makes a profit, just not an obscene one.

I worked for the U.S. Forest Service many years ago. I learned that the USFS never makes a profit on a timber sale -- NEVER!

The American People never recover the cost to setup and monitor a tmber sale or the cost to build the roads required to harvest it. Taxpayers like you and me always pay timber companies to cut and cart away the trees from our public land. That is why timber companies are profitable using the methods they use. They never pay the American Public fair market value for our trees. We always subsidize timber harvesting from public land -- our land.

The NW Forest plan gives/gave the timber companies with forest health management service contracts control over tens of thousands of acres of public land under the guise of making a heathier forest. I find several aspects of the program unacceptable:

Because they fall under the category of Service Contracts, the contracts do not require environmental impact review. They will be issued on an RFP basis, with no public oversight. This will happen because the current administration found a loophole and will exploit it at the expense of the American People. As a result, huge sums of money will flow into a small nuber of very large companies. The judiciary branch inadvertently created loophole so we can't blame R's or D's for that.

The size and scope of contracts will shut out local companies. No local companies can meet the minimum requirements to even submit a bid. Local companies may work as subcontractors, however, it will provide scant profit. The primary contractor (large company) will force local contractors to bid competitively. Most of the profit from the service contracts will not remain in the local economy. It will be paid out in the form of tax free stock dividends. Jobs created will offer at best, low pay and for the most part will be filled by seasonal migrant labor.

In lieu of payment for work performed, the contracting company will remove harvestable second growth and old growth timber within the designated area. Whey will not be restricted in the selection of that timber. I do not believer the USFS will oversee this work. I suspect the GSA will.

Timber removed under a service contract will not be considered "sold" but rather "disposed of in trade." Consequently, the Forest Service will receive no cash payment therefore, no cash money will go into the local School Funds. "Let no child be left behind."

Tracts of Public Timberland land assigned to contractors will cover huge areas -- often in excess of 10,000 or more acres. These areas will be far bigger than any historical clear cut. If the contractor deems clear cutting is the most efficient way to remove the fire hazard they can do so with little or no restrictions.

Someone mentioned timber jobs. I have one personal observations resulting from some classes I taught. A number of former forest product workers were enrolled through a Federal Worker Retraining Program. Almost all of the workers came from mills. Many of those workers asked why they lost their jobs when they knew trees were still being harvested.

Being curious, I looked for an answer and soon found one. Huge cold decks sat in freight yards in Coos Bay, Portland and elsewhere. Weyerhaeuser and others simply made more money when they shipped unprocessed logs to third world countries. Globalization and New Economic Free Trade Agreements, not Environmentalists cost those mill workers their jobs.

Owls and marbled murletts gave exporting timber companies a great smoke screen. It was an easy sell to convince mill workers and others that they were the reason jobs went away. For those that did not believe that, technolgy proved to be an equally usefull scapegoat to appease the uninformed. It worked.

I'm sure stockholders in those companies had a good laugh as they hoisted many a toast to the environmentalists that let themselves get played like a bunch of fools. Investors had a great run. One they enjoyed until the trees really were all gone. (Don't believe that? Buy an airplane ticket and see for yourself.)

The current administration with a presidential act, gutted the EPA's water quality rules about two years ago. The EPA no longer protects over 1.5 million miles of annual and perennial streams or tens of thousands of acres of wetlands. Anglers rely on these very streams and wetlands to provide us with quality fisheries, dont' we? The logging industry has no vested interest in protecting streams and wetlands without the threat of finacial loss for destroying them, do they? That is merely good business on their part.

I doubt most Americans have followed the current administration's and a few powerful business lobbyists' activities regarding ownership of public land. Apparently the plan will make it possible to divest the US government and the American people of vast tracts of public land. That is right. The process of turning over the management and even ownership of National Forests, BLM lands and other public real estate to multi-national corporations is already moving forward.

The theory is that private companies can operate public land more efficiently than the US Government can -- remember, we paid those same companies to harvest our trees.

I understand that 63,000 acres in the Southern Oregon coastal range will soon be deeded to a group of Native Americans. Once completed, the title transfer gives the new owners the right to sell the once public property. In a two-step process, national forest land will go from public to private ownership. This coupled with Oregon Senate Bill 293, will close those streams to the public forever.

Those are some of the reasons I am skeptical of the timber industry.

Scruffy

[Tilla]

Well Dan there is a bit of a difference between the people and the industry. When a corporation is in the business of satisfying stockholders it is called the "money business". That is with any business, not only the Timber industry. As much as these corporations want you to think they care about their employees, they really don't, or they tell you they do and sell it as a marketing tool to the stockholders and customers. They operate their businesses to maximize profits. People are hired and fired, businesses ar sold and bought to achieve this. They have nothing to be ashamed of.
The sad part (business is business) about the Timber industry was as the employees were being told to blame the spotted owl and they were marching up and down the street with signs and placards, the corporations were closing down inefficient mills, buying the smaller ones, consolidating, diversifying, moving across the country and overseas, buying the latest optimizing machinery that was less employee intensive etc.
Have you studied the corporate reports for the last 15 years?
Of course that is just one way to look at it. Others may have varying opinions.

[Straydog]

Here is a good read for anyone interested in some historical fiction.

I may have found it more interesting than some will because it is based on Butte Falls, Or., not far from Medford. It is also about Medco, the company my dad worked for for 32 years and is written by someone that has become a friend of mine.......

Forest Blood