Deja vu all over again......

[1pump]

MSNBC NEWS SERVICES

April 14 — U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on Monday accused Syria of testing chemical weapons and allowing Iraqi officials to flee into Syrian territory. Secretary of State Colin Powell said the United States would explore imposing sanctions on Syria. European leaders, meanwhile, urged Washington to tone down its rhetoric and stressed the need for dialog with Damascus.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Have we seen this somewhere before?
The dust hasn't even settled in Iraq yet, and we're already looking at Syria? Bush, Rumsfeld & Co apparently don't think we've done enough damage to our relations with the Arabs (not to mention Europe) so we're gonna go prod the Syrians. I know they've been a minor thorn in our side for the last 40 years or so, but they've been relatively quiet since the '73 war with Israel. Leave 'em alone.

[Hoosier Daddy]

Hitler was "relatively quiet for awhile"... too, not that we SHOULD go after them, but I don't think that's the reasoning that should be used...

[corrirod]

What kind of statement is that 1pump? You act as if we had no reason to go to Iraq. Do you watch the news or read the paper? We may not have had UN approval but we sure as heck had Iraqi civilian approval, which in my mind is better!

Seems pretty simple to me. If they harbor criminals (Iraqi officials), they (Syria) then become criminals.

The monkey is on Syria's back. If they have nothing to hide there will be NO PROBLEM. If they choose to harbor those murderous SOB's then they deserve to pay the consequences.

[ 04-14-2003, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: corrirod ]

[1pump]

We had a reason to invade Iraq? You might be convinced of that, but I'm not.
Some Iraqis might be dancing (and looting) in the streets, but I'd be careful about saying we have their approval. In the simplest terms, the US is still an invading army, and most Iraqis (and other Arabs) see it that way. And the longer we stay, the more resentment there will be. I'm not buying into the media's depiction of our new "best buddies". Anybody who does isn't seeing the big picture. Saddam was hated by most Iraqis, but he was still an Iraqi, and an Arab, and nationalism is strong over there. We're not welcome, and we never will be.

[Hoosier Daddy]

Look at it this way....all of those who have enjoyed all the talk about how we shouldn't be in Iraq, the Arab nations hate us, etc. etc., will get even more to grouse about if we go in somewhere else...... it will keep you out of trouble...

[1pump]

Huh? What sort of trouble might that be? :whazzup:

My main complaint is hundreds of billions of dollars being shelled out to destroy, then rebuild, foreign countries. Just 1% of that money would bail Oregon out of it's budget crisis.

[corrirod]

Bush, Rumsfeld & Co apparently don't think we've done enough damage to our relations with the Arabs (not to mention Europe)

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">

We're not welcome, and we never will be.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">So if they've never liked us, and never will, then why should we not pin them to the wall for hiding criminals?

I'm just glad not everyone is afraid to step up and do the RIGHT thing. Thank you Mr. Bush for not just TALKING about it.

[1pump]

So if they've never liked us, and never will, then why should we not pin them to the wall for hiding criminals?

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">We (Americans) have to share this planet with over 5 billion other people. It's not all about us. We represent less than 5% of the world's population. Just because we have the ability to bully anyone we want to doesn't mean we have the right to.
The conflict in Iraq is far from over. The easy part is over. Now comes the hard part- pulling that country together and getting (and keeping) everybody on the same page. The jury will be out on that one for a long, long, time. :depressed:

[Degner]

It's about time we made a sweep through the middle-east. It's been a long time coming. It's not something we want to do but forced to do. Many countries need to understand we will not be messed with and we DO NOT CARE if they like us or not. If they didn't act like children, maybe we would care. Too bad. At this point I feel they should prove their friendship to us, not the other way around. I am sick of appeasing them. If they want a jihad and bring the fight to our people, we should respond ten-fold. If other governments can't control their people, they will be held responsible. Maybe we can bail out Oregon's economy with the money we will save in taking care of syria now rather than deploying our forces later.

[STGRule]

We (Americans) have to share this planet with over 5 billion other people. It's not all about us. We represent less than 5% of the world's population. Just because we have the ability to bully anyone we want to doesn't mean we have the right to.
The conflict in Iraq is far from over. The easy part is over. Now comes the hard part- pulling that country together and getting (and keeping) everybody on the same page. The jury will be out on that one for a long, long, time.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">[img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]


The testosterone is still pumping from the "thumping". Perhaps some need to take a deep breath and break out the spreadsheet. Breathe into a paper bag and sit down. Figure out what this cost both us and them. And will continue to cost into the future. I'm talking human as well as financial cost.

[Silver Hilton]

The real issue, boys and girls, is that we have the equipment and skill to kick the butts of countries, but we have never been able to find and capture terrorists. Witness the fact that Bin Laden, and the chief Taliban Mullah Omar are still free and agitating. And terrorists, remember, are why we started down this path. The idea was to prevent people from trying to kill more of our citizens.

Strictly from a strategy standpoint, romping throught the middle east is a poor plan, because it will accomplish zip in terms of improving our security, and will motivate one more generation of one BILLION muslims to hate us. And unlike catholics, they don't believe that they go to hell if they commit suicide in the pursuit of justice.

Bush and his team seem unable to fathom this basic concept, and I fear that we will pay as a nation as a result.

I'm glad Hussein is out, and I'm happy that the Iraqi's may be able to rebuild. But let's quit while we're maybe a bit ahead.

[Silver Hilton]

Originally posted by 1pump:


My main complaint is hundreds of billions of dollars being shelled out to destroy, then rebuild, foreign countries. Just 1% of that money would bail Oregon out of it's budget crisis.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Now, it's that kind of imbecilic liberal thinking that got us into this mess to begin with. Don't you realize it's more important for us to appear tough and strong in the world than it is for us to feed and clothe our citizens?

[Joe Schwab]

I don't know what school some of you went to but where I went the "bullies" were not the guys going around evening up the score for the weaker set. Bullies are the cowards that strike and run and do not play by the "rules". Peacekeepers are those people who have the intestinal fortitude to lay it on the line and make things better for everyone in the long run.

I remember the first "pacifists" who came around organizing meetings and telling us how it is much better to lay down your defenses and submit to the violence because they will see the error of their ways and eventually feel bad about themselves. I didn't believe it then and I don't believe it now.

We did not finish the job in the first gulf war. If we had we would not be fighting this one. Anyone out there remember a guy named Quadafi? A little force used properly goes a long way.

Yeah we share this planet and as the responsible world power we have the duty to make it safer for all. Or we could sit back and let the anarchists sort it all out. That would work!

[GutshotApe]

[quote]Originally posted by STGRule:

The testosterone is still pumping from the "thumping". Perhaps some need to take a deep breath and break out the spreadsheet. Breathe into a paper bag and sit down. Figure out what this cost both us and them. And will continue to cost into the future. I'm talking human as well as financial cost.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Don't worry STG...there will be plenty of critics who will figure out the cost of the Iraq intervention and say it wasn't worth it. But we need to look at the other scenario...the cost of doing nothing...and of letting Saddam Hussein and his pig-Latin-named sons continue unabated.

Anybody read about the 20 mobile chem/bio labs found today in Iraq? They were carefully buried for ready recovery and filled with equimment to make WMD. What is the value of putting this equipment out of reach of terrorists? What is the value of the apparent significant improvement in attitude of other regimes like North Korea since we went into Iraq? :whazzup:

[metalhead madness]

I see more name calling :depressed: [imbelcilic]. Lets see if it gets moderated

[ 04-14-2003, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: metalhead madness ]

[Kruechief]

The testosterone is still pumping from the "thumping".

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Wow! :shocked:

STG, can I call you and have you say that over the phone?

Krue [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img]

[corrirod]

SH,

Witness the fact that Bin Laden, and the chief Taliban Mullah Omar are still free and agitating. And terrorists, remember, are why we started down this path. The idea was to prevent people from trying to kill more of our citizens

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">And when was the last terrorist act? We may not have captured Osama but he's not quite so comfortable anymore and he's lost a few dollars for funding as well.

1pump,

Just because we have the ability to bully anyone we want to doesn't mean we have the right to.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Bully? If we wanted to bully someone we'd have dropped a much bigger bomb and renamed the place Texas II. Have you been misinformed by the Iraqi Information Minister? WE ARE NOT THERE TO ACQUIRE REAL ESTATE!

SH,

And unlike catholics, they don't believe that they go to hell if they commit suicide in the pursuit of justice.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">So apparently not many of them believe suicide gets them to heaven either because there were thousands of troops and loyalists that DID NOT commit suicide and surrendered. This tells me they do value their life, just like everyone else on the planet. You're insulting these people by thinking they don't care what happens to their family, friends, and country. If they know that THEIR actions will cause us(U.S.) to obliterate their country they WILL think twice.

Will 9/11 be the last terrorist act on the U.S.? Of course not! We can't even stop our own people from blowing stuff up(anyone remember Oklahoma)! A lunatic is a lunatic, but to sit around and do nothing while a lunatic kills and abuses others is shameful.

Shame on any of you who would rather do nothing!

[The Fishing Geek]

Originally posted by metalhead madness:
I see more name calling :depressed: [imbelcilic]. Lets see if it gets moderated

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Metalhead:

It was sarcasm. One pinko ****** to another. No moderation necessary.

[Straydog]

I think we need to invade our own country. Blow the poop out of our roads, schools and bridges.

Then maybe the administration will begin to take care of us here at home.

[Uglygreen]

Figure out what this cost both us and them. And will continue to cost into the future. I'm talking human as well as financial cost.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Actually somebody already did. If you take into account the 600,000 people that Saddam has killed over the last 25 years since he has been in power, you come out with a average of 24,000 people per year. Multiply that by the remainder of his life expectancy (20 years) and you come up with the round number of just a little less than half a million people we just saved.

Financial? With the sanctions imposed, Iraq had a gross domestic product of around 60 billion dollars. About 50 billion dollars a year of which went to support Saddam Hussain and keep him in power. THAT IS 50 FREAKING BILLION DOLLARS!!! - did you get that? 80% of the gross domestic product of a whole country to support one man.

That man is gone, the bill is gone. The sanctions will soon be gone and the GDP is estimated to go up to around 100 billion within a couple years. So the people of Iraq, who subsisted on 10 billion dollars in 2002, will somehow have to make do with a ten fold increase to around 100 billion dollars in 2005. Iraq will (financially) rebuild itself without a problem.

The cost to us? Increased stability and decreased cost in the world oil supply resulting from Iraq selling oil legally on the world market should save the the United States economy over 500 billion dollars annually by 2005.

These points were made in a Wall Street Journal article about 2 weeks ago. I am paraphrasing, this is what I remember, could be a little off (not much).


UG

[crabbait]

Look guys, we are not going to solve this here and this discussion and others like it will only lead to hard feelings, quick tempers, deleted posts, and more hard feelings.

I think it is time we left the politics off LIG for awhile. Those who think the Bush administration can do no wrong are going to think that until something bad happens. Those who think Bush et al can do no right will think that until nothing bad happens.

Lets agree to disagree and move on...while this board is still open.

I am not going to close this thread...yet...but I propose we move on.

[ 04-14-2003, 11:23 PM: Message edited by: crabbait ]

[feisty's wife]

MOVE ON MOVE ON&gt;&gt;&gt; No WMD"s here...MOVE ON. None found yet....hmmmmm

[Hoosier Daddy]

Originally posted by 1pump:
Huh? What sort of trouble might that be? :whazzup:

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">sorry 1pump, it was a joke. Probably a poor one. Once again I will say this, I WAS NOT SAYING WE SHOULD GO AFTER SYRIA. My point was that a lot of folks have used the Iraq war as the perfect springboard to go after Bush, who they were gunning for anyway. I have a bit of a problem with using something as serious as a war for something so petty. I'm not pointing the finger at anyone on Ifish for that either, so don't blow up on me for it. Just a general observation from watching some of the protestors, etc. Once again, I DON'T MEAN ANY IFISHER's WHEN I SAY THAT, OK....

oh, and.......

Now, it's that kind of imbecilic liberal thinking that got us into this mess to begin with. Don't you realize it's more important for us to appear tough and strong in the world than it is for us to feed and clothe our citizens?

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Oh, that's not inflammatory at ALL!!!!

[The Fishing Geek]

Hoosier: SH's post was sarcasm. That's all.

[1pump]

No apology necessary, Hoosier. I don't take anything personally on this board. I just needed a little clarification. :smile:
I've only blown up at somebody here once, and it wasn't much of a blowup. We simply misunderstood each other, and exchanged apologies. [img]graemlins/hearton.gif[/img]

[Albacore Tuna Captain]

Fiesty you make me laugh. You're are so funny!!! :smile: Let's see, we are just now finding huge caches of conventional weapons that were hidden. It's going to take a little while to go through a country the size of California, looking for weapons that Saddam had TWELVE YEARS to hide. Of course, we could make it simpler on ourselves by just planting WMD ourselves. Of course, no one would see us doing it. And we would only have to keep it hidden from a few thousand operatives and reporters. And none of them, of course, would spill the beans. It's like those folks who still believe we never walked on the moon, that it was just a big government lie to get a bigger NASA budget.
Wake me when we can discuss something really worthwhile.

[Boedy]

I am sure we could find some of Iraq's WMD if we would just look west a little more. Maybe follow the pipeline that has been illegally pumping millions of barrels of oil west for the last few years and see what we find at the end.