France is "Glad Saddam has been removed"

CATCH AND EAT · 04-10-2003, 07:33 AM

So France is glad Saddam has been removed. Big Stinking deal. France should be ignored as far as the rebuilding of Iraq. That is unless they want to provide the wine instead of the Whine for the celebration when Iraq elects its new government. Certainly hope they don't try to sell Renault or Nissan products they.

And the UN. They believe now that they can help establish legitimacy of a new Iraqi government by NOW having their presence felt. Please.

Now that I have ranted a bit, what is your opinion. Remember to show respect to one another.

Cool Texan · 04-10-2003, 07:40 AM

Just get over the whole France thing already. They wanted to pursue a diplomatic resolution so as to avoid civilian casualties, and so did almost every other significant nation on earth.

Now that it is over, sure, the whole free world will celebrate the fact that it is over. Yet you still want to bash the countries??

This is not about being a country of glory-hounds or spoils hoarders...its about liberating a country an eliminating a regime. We had our way of doing it, France had their preferred way, so did German, Russia, etc...everyone had a different view, and we're allowed to not all agree with each other. Enough of the France bashing...its just played out at this point. IN MY OPINION.

(posted during work hours)

CATCH AND EAT · 04-10-2003, 07:58 AM

Thanks for your opinion. But it is not about hording. Sorry.

Kruechief · 04-10-2003, 08:12 AM

CT,

France stepped over the line, period.

Bashing France will never quit!

When our dead soldiers' graves are desecrated in the soil they bled upon to liberate France from Hitler, I say [img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img] on the French and I fart in their general direction (can I say this?).

Never enough said about a nation with such a short memory.

Krue

PS: I want my father’s wasted youth, his brother Bennie’s leg and his best friend back. Also, I want him to forget the atrocities he witnessed while liberating an ungrateful nation of surrender monkeys (can I say this?).

The Fishing Geek · 04-10-2003, 08:15 AM

They stepped over the line by disagreeing with us? I mean, I'm sure that they are very grateful that we came in and liberated them from the Germans 60 or so years ago, but how long do they have to be our Yes Men because of it?

Sea Nymph · 04-10-2003, 08:21 AM

My opinion:
-France = 2 faced.
-UN = Useless bureauocracy and doesn't really do much for peace.
-We should remove our troops from Germany and station them in Poland.

SN

Sea Nymph · 04-10-2003, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Fishing Geek:
They stepped over the line by disagreeing with us? I mean, I'm sure that they are very grateful that we came in and liberated them from the Germans 60 or so years ago, but how long do they have to be our Yes Men because of it?

I believe we gave them a hand in Vietnam and helped them along in the Cold War (WWIII as some say).

SN

lost_sailor · 04-10-2003, 08:28 AM

CT [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

Alienating ourselves from Europe can't be a good idea. The world is bigger than these 50 states.

Sea Nymph · 04-10-2003, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lost_sailor:
CT [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

Alienating ourselves from Europe can't be a good idea. The world is bigger than these 50 states.

Not all of Europe anyway. Just the parts that stab us in the back.

SN

The Fishing Geek · 04-10-2003, 08:39 AM

Even with the aide that we have given them over the years, does that mean that they automatically have to agree with every international decision that we make?

Sea Nymph · 04-10-2003, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Fishing Geek:
Even with the aide that we have given them over the years, does that mean that they automatically have to agree with every international decision that we make?

Of course not. It would have been nice though if they didn't sell arms parts to saddam, threaten to veto our move on Iraq after they voted in favor of 1441 and now say they are happy that Iraq is liberated.

SN

[ 04-10-2003, 09:43 AM: Message edited by: Sea Nymph ]

Straydog · 04-10-2003, 08:46 AM

Speaking of short memories, didn't France help us become a free country in the first place?

lost_sailor · 04-10-2003, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sea Nymph:
It would have been nice though if they didn't sell arms parts to saddam ...

Like the U.S. didn't give weapons to Saddam?

GutshotApe · 04-10-2003, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Straydog:
Speaking of short memories, didn't France help us become a free country in the first place?

Yes, they helped...but they helped themselves first & foremost. Their enemy was England...and an enemy of their enemy is their friend...or something like that.

[ 04-10-2003, 09:54 AM: Message edited by: GutshotApe ]

Pilar · 04-10-2003, 08:54 AM

Yada, yada, yada .... The French as a nation have an amazing ability to be on the winning team. Even if that means changing horses in the middle of the race.

So why does this latest behavior surprise anyone?

The Fishing Geek · 04-10-2003, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Straydog:
Speaking of short memories, didn't France help us become a free country in the first place?

Not to mention Bridgett Bardot.

snowball · 04-10-2003, 08:57 AM

personaly speaking, I think some of you really need to do some indepth reading from a number of sources, regarding France, Germany and Russia, and there reasons for not supporting the UN Resolution. Rather than just reading the headlines and drawing an opinion from that headline. I'm not pointing fingers, but it's obvious that some info didn't get to everyone.

Sea Nymph · 04-10-2003, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Straydog:
Speaking of short memories, didn't France help us become a free country in the first place?

230 years ago, France helped America defeat the British who is now our friend. Didn't they have something to gain by doing so?

SN

[ 04-10-2003, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: Sea Nymph ]

crabbait · 04-10-2003, 09:02 AM

I welcome France's participation. They can start by picking up part of the enormous bill and supplying the peace keeping force so our guys can come home.

As for contracts for rebuilding....ahhh...not so much.

Sea Nymph · 04-10-2003, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lost_sailor:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Sea Nymph:
It would have been nice though if they didn't sell arms parts to saddam ...

Like the U.S. didn't give weapons to Saddam? <hr /></blockquote>Yes they did. However, we didn't sell them while there was tension between them and a so called friend of ours. I don't believe there was UN sanctions against arms sales to Iraq at that time either.

SN

[ 04-10-2003, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Sea Nymph ]

Silver Hilton · 04-10-2003, 09:25 AM

Spoken by the buddhist, "What would Jesus do?"

Cool Texan · 04-10-2003, 09:27 AM

You guys make a good point. France was against this, and they didnt help. So any country that didnt help or didnt approve, they must continue to be sad by these events. :whazzup: [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img]

The US is not in a vacuum....or vaccuum....or vaccum...that one always gets me. Anyway, the US is not in a pocket enveloped by the absence of air. Our way is not always the best way...and we should let our egos remember that and stop living in the past.

Sea Nymph · 04-10-2003, 09:29 AM

..and the Christian, "what would Allah do"?

Cool Texan · 04-10-2003, 09:42 AM

And the Mahadev...."What would my dog do?"

Pilar · 04-10-2003, 09:52 AM

And the Zen monk would say .. what is the sound of the right thing to do.

Hoosier Daddy · 04-10-2003, 10:01 AM

and I would say... who cares...it's the French...

I don't care what they think, really....

Those guys think fungus is one of the four food groups....come on now...

Snapset · 04-10-2003, 10:05 AM

As far as I am concerned, the french were motivated by 2 things.

1.) They and Saddam had their hands in each others pockets, (to twist a metaphor). It was helping the French, It was helping Saddam, and who gives a rip about the Iraqi's? The fact that they have scrambled onto the bandwagon is a good indication that Saddam is kaput.

2.) The French are very nationalistic(The same sentiment, when expressed in America is sometimes called Patriotism). They resent the influence of the United States, and they are hopeful of making the Euro the dominant world currency. Of course, French being the language of business, they would expect to have control over the Euro, and thereby be the string-puller of the continent. If they can tweak our nose, they gain face. This would explain their strong-arming the other europeans in the UN.

I think the Russians are also motivated by #1, but as usual the Russians are broke and will shut up for money.

skein · 04-10-2003, 10:13 AM

Hey, I have an idea. When OUR boys come home, we can take all those yellow ribbons that are tied around our trees and send them to France so their leaders can sew them on the backs of their uniforms. [img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img]

As my dad said, "you have to be present to win." France and Germany and China and Russia weren't there! Period.

They can pee up a rope for all I care!

Skein

Cool Texan · 04-10-2003, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by skein:

They can pee up a rope for all I care!

Skein

Very eloquent! :grin: :tongue:

Deepslayer · 04-10-2003, 10:24 AM

Good call Skein! I am sure the French did enough to sink their ambitions in the European Union. Especially with all the new Eastern European countries soon to join.

lost_sailor · 04-10-2003, 12:27 PM

"A post, or statement in a post, which serves only to fire up negative emotions or generate anger will be considered inflammatory and will be edited or deleted at the discretion of the moderators."

corrirod · 04-10-2003, 01:19 PM

Lost_sailor, just like the french your taking up space and won't pick a side.

Leave the moderating up to the moderators. Either you're in the debate or get out and stay out.

Your "post, or statement in a post, which serves only to fire up negative emotions or generate anger", has angered me.

The Fishing Geek · 04-10-2003, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by corrirod:
Lost_sailor,

Leave the moderating up to the moderators.

Thank you.

lost_sailor · 04-10-2003, 02:03 PM

[img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

El Shaddai · 04-10-2003, 02:38 PM

Iraq aside, the bigger question is what role are we willing to accept on the international stage and what role are we willing to let the UN accept? At what point do we submit ourselves to UN mandates and policies and at what point do we go our own direction?

The UN has a clear social agenda to redefine (destroy) the family unit. Politically it leans heavily towards socialist values and is inept in many of its dealings.

There are many unions and alliances; NATO, UN, EU, G7, WTO etc....some of these are irrelevant organizations and some add real value. I believe we should maintain our presence in these organizations in an attempt to be a part of a positive process. The moment the process does not benefit the US and its values, we need to be prepared to go our own way.....I believe the UN should have moderate influence and zero authority over the US...every time we succumb to their idealogy and resolutions we are granting them authority in that area...

This would be a great poll question...but I am not sure how to set one up and I am short on time!

BTW- Doesn't France still owe us money from WWII? I have heard this but have not validated its basis or the actual amount. Also, didn't we in essence pick up their mess in Vietnam? I hate to date myself, but I was not around in those days....and I didn't pay very good attention in history class.....

CATCH AND EAT · 04-10-2003, 03:24 PM

I think our role at this time is to provide leadership and assist in implementation of a provisional government. We then should also oversee and see to fair democratic elections.

The role of the UN? Provide humanitarian aid and police to control uprisings of Saddam Loyalists. Hopefully, this would be something that the French Government would be honorable enough to assist with.

As far as elections, or military assistence...they had their chance. They looked the other way. They can join Desmond Tutu and smoke a peace pipe. The UN has proved to me that they are not the all powerful and united force that they are trying to toute. Far from it. They are about as helpful as the World Court or the League of Nations. Will they ever learn?

Silver Hilton · 04-10-2003, 04:39 PM

If you think about this as a management problem I assert that we should absolutely let the UN have a significant role in the rebuilding. If you don't, the organization doesn't develop expertise, and then the US keeps the responsibility, and the expense. It's kind of like an employee how is basically capable but hs just failed at a task new to him. If you don't coach him and give him another chance, he never improves.

France, well, their ambitions seem a little more self serving. I'm not inclined to hold a grudge, but neither do I think we need to be handing out favors.

Stratocaster · 04-10-2003, 07:28 PM

I agree with lettin the u.n. take center stage with rebuilding and what not. As far as France goes, who cares of there arrogance. Remember the nuke tests that were banned and were not honored by you know who?

[ 04-10-2003, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: fisherdan ]

1pump · 04-10-2003, 08:04 PM

The UN should step in and take over the menial peacekeeping duties, like controlling looters, manning checkpoints, overseeing elections, etc. All the stuff that costs money and doesn't make any.
That $75 billion the US has pledged isn't going to go far. Iraq is going to be a financial black hole. Especially since we're promoting a convicted embezzler to lead the Shi'ites. Corruption is the lifeblood of the Middle East and we're going to make sure the Iraqis uphold that noble tradition.

[ 04-10-2003, 09:05 PM: Message edited by: 1pump ]

04-10-2003, 08:11 PM

Keep the UN out of it

. More than half of the UN member nations ate dictatorships or monarchies. Let the Iraqis have a constitutional convention free of ALL outside influence and then free elections

DanS · 04-10-2003, 08:24 PM

I agree with Keta. The UN is hardly a beacon for democracy...... Let NATO administer the rebuilding.

France? Who?

corrirod · 04-10-2003, 08:33 PM

I think now we should arm Iraq to take France.

Actually, we probably don't even need to arm them.

corrirod · 04-10-2003, 11:01 PM

Skein sums it up for me.

They(France) are always quick to associate themselves with the winner even if they weren't a part of the fight. France, and Jock Strap, I mean Jacques Chirac, can have my middle finger.

And CT, that's as eloquently as I could put it.

CATCH AND EAT · 04-10-2003, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by crabbait:
I welcome France's participation. They can start by picking up part of the enormous bill and supplying the peace keeping force so our guys can come home.

As for contracts for rebuilding....ahhh...not so much.

Excellent idea Steve.

But, who is going to cover their forces backs.

My point for this is the French government participates only when it is convienent or a win win situation. Not when there are hard decisions to be made. This is very unfortunate and a divisive position for a country that could have and broadcast greatness throughout the world.

[ 04-10-2003, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: CATCH AND EAT ]

Pilar · 04-10-2003, 11:24 PM

Frank Zappa said it best in a song titled 'France'. You can find this gem on an album named "Have I offended somone?".

Listen to it and have a laugh on me.

Tilla · 04-11-2003, 01:53 AM

Sure France is being nice all of a sudden. Germany and Russia are going to get real snuggly with us. [img]graemlins/hearton.gif[/img] The government that they were doing billions of dollars of business with and were owed billions of dollars doesn't exist anymore. This is going to hurt. (You don't actually think this war thing is about anything but money?) They will be out to cut their losses.
Well guess who' making all the decisions now!
So the newly liberated Iraqians are celebrating with waving flags and tearing down statues, I guess they already got their loot out of the palace.

I just get real squeamish watching them tear down those statues of Saddam. Can you imagine what I could get for one of those on E-Bay? Everyone should have one.

[ 04-11-2003, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: Tilla ]

Kruechief · 04-11-2003, 05:29 AM

"liberated Iranians"

My God I go to sleep and wake and we have taken out another country.

Krue

The Fishing Geek · 04-11-2003, 06:00 AM

We were in the neighborhood.

Kruechief · 04-11-2003, 06:11 AM

If it would have said "Syrians" I'd been real worried. :shocked:

Krue

crabbait · 04-11-2003, 07:05 AM

Purely freudian. He meant Saudis.

Seriously, look at a map. I bet there are some folks with stars on their shoulders (and many without) who are very tempted to blast out of Iraq in all directions (Syria, Jordan, Iran, lets not forget Saudi Arabia where the airborn terrorists came from) while we are in the neigborhood. Hey, if they ain't with us then they agin us, right? [img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img]

Oughta have the whole messy thing cleaned up by next Tuesday. Like a rerun of a bad movie. :grin:

Seriously, I wonder how many times we will have to go back to the area before this thing is over....if we can ever get out of there to begin with.

Not stirrin', just ponderin'. :smile:

CATCH AND EAT · 04-11-2003, 07:17 AM

Crabbait, your wonders about how many times we revisit this area my not be far from the truth. Only time will tell. We have two countries to rebuild now. Afganistan and Iraq. Wonder if the Russians would like to kick in a few bucks on the Afgan deal? :shocked:

Tilla · 04-11-2003, 08:15 AM

OK , It was a Freudian slip. I had been listening to a "scholar" from some institute who provided a myriad of reasons why Iran would have been a better choice in the long run. He stated that Saddam was not a long term threat particularly outside it's borders. Iran has the potential as a nuclear threat, a real history of terrorism and not afraid to do anything crazy. Is it me or is Iran being uncomfortable cool?
Regardless, what happens next is going to be interesting with our new bestest friend, France.

Tilla · 04-11-2003, 08:26 AM

C and E, Russia doesn't have any bucks. I believe the old Iraq regime owed the Russians approx $6-7 Billion. They are never going to collect. But, the US could look at this as a way, we forgave the $$ Russia owed us after WWII. It might be considered "even". We are going to get a big hug from the Russian Bear real soon. They will become one of our newest bestest buds too.

lost_sailor · 04-11-2003, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tilla:
C and E, Russia doesn't have any bucks.

Have you checked on the US federal deficit lately? (Gotta have those tax cuts, of course!) We need all the help we can get.

speyfly · 04-11-2003, 12:07 PM

corrirod, yes you are right that every country in the world has their homeless, their impoverished and yes they all have problems. If you are truly interested to see the differences do some research between socialistic countries homeless, crime, poverty etc and compare it with the US stats per capita. I think that you will be surprised.

speyfly · 04-11-2003, 12:22 PM

Decided to start a new topic with this one.

[ 04-11-2003, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: speyfly ]

AuntyM · 04-11-2003, 02:55 PM

Quote:

I am afraid we did not or at least neglected to fishing the job in Afganistan.

I guess we all know where C&E's mind is.

:tongue:

CATCH AND EAT · 04-11-2003, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AuntyM:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I am afraid we did not or at least neglected to fishing the job in Afganistan.

I guess we all know where C&E's mind is. :tongue: <hr /></blockquote>Must have been dreaming or had an Archie Bunker moment. You got me good Aunty M&M.

The bad part is every time I went to type in "finish" it came out "fishing". Good thing I'm going finishing tomorrow. I mean fishing.

[ 04-11-2003, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: CATCH AND EAT ]

speyfly · 04-11-2003, 11:21 PM

While our attention is on Iraq, the Taliban and Al Quada are reorganizing in Afghanistan so LINK, have we gotten in over our head? It�s looking like the only thing that we have control of is Kabul. Lets not forget about the other countries that we have to invade (Iran, the rest of the Middle East and N. Korea) so are we getting spread pretty thin? Can we really pull this off? And as far as the UN supporting socialism, it doesn�t look like capitalism is working right now so who is to say which is the better system. I guess only time will tell how it going to turn out.

DanS · 04-11-2003, 11:31 PM

Feel free to hold up examples of socialism that are working better.

I can't think of any.