Don't know what they are getting into.......

Straydog · 04-08-2003, 06:24 AM

There has been some debate on here concerning whether or not kids know what they are getting into when they sign up for the military. My contention has always been that regardless of what they are told, until they have actually experienced it (as with most of life), they haven't a clue what they are getting into.

I think the quote below fairly well sums it up...

- QUOTATION OF THE DAY -

"It's a little sobering. When you're training for this, you joke about, you can't wait for the real thing. Then when you see it, when you see the real thing, you never want to see it again."
- CAPT. SAL AGUILAR, after a battle near Baghdad.

New York Times
4-08-03

pdxkevin · 04-08-2003, 06:30 AM

The same could be said for marrage by some people.

Or signing up to be on a committee.

Born to be Wild · 04-08-2003, 06:41 AM

Give it up Straydog.

Straydog · 04-08-2003, 06:48 AM

Dan,

Give what up? My convictions?

That isn't going to happen, trust me.

[ 04-08-2003, 07:54 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

crabbait · 04-08-2003, 06:51 AM

What is your point, DepoeBayDan? If you do not agree with SD's point, then say so and give your reasons why. If you do not think the topic deserves your attention, then hit the back button.

Straydog hs the right to express himself and need not "give it up" because you are not excited by the topic.

You don't have to agree with others opinion. You do have to respect their right to have an opinion that differs from yours and to express that opinion.

[ 04-08-2003, 07:53 AM: Message edited by: crabbait ]

Straydog · 04-08-2003, 06:57 AM

pdxkevin,

Oh yes, how true!

lost_sailor · 04-08-2003, 07:00 AM

Straydog, good point. I'm glad I don't really know.

For all the 24-hour news coverage, I sure haven't seen much blood and bodies.

The Fishing Geek · 04-08-2003, 07:16 AM

Many kids went into the reserves for the college education afterwards, as they couldn't afford to go to college on their own and they never dreamed that they would be put into this situation. Scary.

speyfly · 04-08-2003, 07:21 AM

Lost Sailor, you don't think that they would really want to show the dead civilians and pictures of over flowing understaffed hospitals do you. Would not be good for the stock market

speyfly · 04-08-2003, 07:25 AM

Geek, I would like to know if the rate of new military recruits has dropped over the last few months. I would think that would be the case with this preemptive war stuff.

Sea Nymph · 04-08-2003, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Fishing Geek:
Many kids went into the reserves for the college education afterwards, as they couldn't afford to go to college on their own and they never dreamed that they would be put into this situation. Scary.

Educating yourself is always an option. All you gotta do is research how many reservists fought in former wars and decide for yourself if joining is worth it.

Joining the military is totally optional. You volunteer for it. Before doing so, you should know that there are other countries that doesn't like us. As long as that's the case, there is the potential for armed conflict. Knowledge is power - ignorance is no excuse. Don't like the odds - don't join. If you do join and are called on to fight, go do it. You made the promise.

SN

pdxkevin · 04-08-2003, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by speyfly:
Lost Sailor, you don't think that they would really want to show the dead civilians and pictures of over flowing understaffed hospitals do you. Would not be good for the stock market

.
.
Are you talking about the over flowing understaffed hospitals in Los Angeles or San Diego?

[ 04-08-2003, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: pdxkevin ]

speyfly · 04-08-2003, 09:13 AM

Whats your point pdx?

Albacore Tuna Captain · 04-08-2003, 10:10 AM

I recall the incident with the young Marine in the opening days of this war. He wanted to go home because he never thought it was going to be this tough. He is one in a million who gets all the way through his training and never thought he would have to use the skills he learned. HOW NAIEVE CAN YOU BE!!?? Nobody knows what they are getting into when they sign up with a military service. That's the nature of the beast. However, to assume you will never be called on to participate in a war is extremely stupid! I guess you can always decide not to go, desert, run away, be a coward, shirk your sworn allegiance and duty. War is the most horrible thing to experience in anyones life. But if you sign up, do your duty and don't back out just because it gets tough. I have nothing but respect and I'm proud of our soilders like Jessica who do their duty, get hurt but still stand for what they signed up for.

DanS · 04-08-2003, 10:59 AM

I agree that you'd have to be a little slow to think your military service, in any capacity, didn't come with at least a risk of combat. What did they think the Armed Forces do?

Sorry if it wasn't what you expected......you SHOULD have expected it.

Straydog · 04-08-2003, 12:00 PM

I think the point being missed here is that regardles of knowing the risk that you may end up in combat, if one has never been in combat, they do not know what they are getting into. Just as the quote I offered implies.

If I were to be allowed and wanted to join, I would know there would be a risk of being in harms way. However, until I had actually been in combat I would not know what I was getting into.

A point of observation and observation only, no judgment of good or bad being made. I can recall only two people on here questioning my calling these kids kids. One has told us he has no children. (at least without blood tests to prove it.....

) and the other, while he has not told us so, I am betting has no kids either. (Depoebaydan)

My point is that I think those that are parents have a different perspective of who is and who is not a kid. I know I really got steamed over my mother refering to me as a kid until I had my own. It changes ones perspective a ton.

[ 04-08-2003, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

Born to be Wild · 04-08-2003, 01:11 PM

Wrong again Straydogie. Guess you are buying the rounds again. My daughter last fall in Longview, Wa. while fishing the Cowlitz River. 5&1/2 years old.

Crabbait,
The reason I said give it up is because we already covered this with Straydog a while back and I had already wasted my time explaining to him that soldiers did realize they were enlisting into the military and I knew what I was getting into when I enlisted and everyone I know knew what they were getting into when they enlisted and I believe I suggested that folks have seen Blachhawk Down, We were soldiers, Platoon, "Full Metal Jacket", etc. And I have realized the dangers since growing up in the Vietnam era and seen plenty armed conflicts since.

I also suggested to Straydog that he should inquire with the military and see if enlistment has taken a nose dive since the war has begun and now the brainwashed enlistee's realized they weren't enlisting in Goldie Hawns Army. Obviously he didn't but I see 1 pump did happen to read an article regarding this and as I suspected it didn't dive but as he stated there was a surge. Golly G.

I also pointed out that all the interviews I have seen of soldiers that have been in battle have stated positive things like they are glad to be there and free (liberate) the Iraqi people. He picks out one article and trys to sway folks opinions with it. Turn on the news and see what the average soldier says! I will be expecting to hear the same thing from PFC Jessica Lynch (POW) that was rescued even with the tragic circumstances she went through. There is a POW from the first Gulf War over there fighting right now.

And yes, if my daughter wants to enlist when she becomes of age, she has my blessing. And now that I have wasted my time again, I'll go for lunch.

Regards

blackdog · 04-08-2003, 02:36 PM

Straydog, I think the point you are missing with the initial quote you offered is if you asked this same guy whether he'd do it again if he had to start over, the answer would probably not be 'yes' but 'heck ya!' Sure, nobody wants to see war, but I would bet the vast majority of our armed forces are darned proud to be serving their country and don't regret ever entering the service.

Straydog · 04-08-2003, 09:48 PM

Dan,

Dang, you got me on the bet again.

Please know that just because you have spoken and told me why you disagree with me has little bearing on whether I continue to post on the subject or not.

As for wasting your time, that is your call and your call only. No one makes you respond and with all due respect, your response has not been and will not necceasarily be the final word on a topic.

Further, you telling me to 'give it up' will not sway me either. However, again, it is your time and you are free to use it as you see fit. Just please don't insinuate it is my fault if you feel you are wasting it.

Blackdog,

Your opinion may or may not be true. However, that is a different subject. If he were to agree to go back it would not change the fact that he initially didn't realize what he was getting into. That is all I have said. Not duped, not brainwashed, just not aware of what he was getting into. Again, as evidenced by his quote.

[ 04-08-2003, 10:53 PM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

1pump · 04-08-2003, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Geek, I would like to know if the rate of new military recruits has dropped over the last few months. I would think that would be the case with this preemptive war stuff.

I read in the Oregonian last week that recruiters are seeing a surge right now. The '91 Gulf War also saw a increase in new enlistments, as did 9/11.
I doubt if anybody who signs up is naive enough to think there's no chance of getting caught up in a conflict like this one. The military exists for a reason, and it occasionally is called upon to perform dangerous and unpleasant tasks like this one. Nevertheless, Oregon has 7 "deserters" at the moment with arrest warrants issued (the Marines just caught one last week). I found it interesting that the military doesn't bother hunting them down like they used to. They just wait for them to pop up during traffic stops, etc.
A good friend of mine spent 8 years on active duty in the Marines and never left the country. He was a combat engineer and really liked the military environment. He only got out because his wife wanted him to.
Another friend joined the National Guard to get electronics training, found out he didn't care for it, but endured 4 years of "weekend warrior" duty anyway. At the end of his first term, the Guard waved a pile of cash at him to lure him into re-upping. He was broke, so he went for it, and 6 months before his 2nd term was up his unit got called up for Gulf War I. He had wedding plans that he had to put on hold, and he really didn't like the Guard anyway, but he sucked it up, gritted his teeth and packed his bags for Saudi Arabia. He was mighty irked, but he didn't complain. He knew there was always a chance that something like that could happen, and he had to honor his commitment, just like several hundred thousand other reservists.

[ 04-08-2003, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: 1pump ]

GutshotApe · 04-08-2003, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Straydog:
There has been some debate on here concerning whether or not kids know what they are getting into when they sign up for the military.

Except for a few 17-yr-olds (who need their parent's permission to join) those "kids" are officially adults. Old enough to vote, etc. Many of them are over 21 when they join....one of the Iraq casualties I read about was a 31-yr-old Marine lance corporal who joined at age 29 in response to the 9/11 attacks.

When I joined the Navy at age 18 I had a pretty good idea of what I was signing up for...a big adventure, "see the world", three hots & a cot, and no foxholes thankyouverymuch (there was no GI Bill in effect then but the recruiter said there would be by the time I got out...and he was right

). But, safe Navy billet or not, I knew there was always the chance that I'd could be killed...

Straydog · 04-09-2003, 05:39 AM

AAhh, it is a beautiful day in the neighborhood!

Mr. Rodgers lives on, I see.

Uglygreen · 04-09-2003, 05:45 AM

Dan,

SD is not part of the "pack", its obviously an identity or ego thing. Probably going against the grain all the time is part of how he makes himself feel important.

Even look at his moniker, "stray dog". The man seems to like to take a contrary position on anything and everything. Just read between the lines and let it roll of your back - water under the bridge.

UG

Straydog · 04-09-2003, 05:49 AM

You're right UG. I think for myself and make my own opinions. And heck, I usually even share them with out belittling.

I guess in your view that is not a good thing. I guess in your view thinking differently and attempting to get others to think rather than simply going along with the 'pack' is a negative.

To each his own.

Frankly, from what I have read this morning I am very glad to not be part of the 'pack'.

I have to ask though, if 'stray dog' means I am a loner and looking for ways to go against the grain, just what does 'ugly green' mean, "snotty attitude"?

[ 04-09-2003, 06:52 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

Uglygreen · 04-09-2003, 06:01 AM

Straydog: "And heck, I usually even share them with out belittling."

I just think calling the men and women in our armed forces a buncha "kids" is both condisending and disrespectful. "Snotty" as you put it. Seems that you could take a little of what you dish out.

And yes, I have kids, 5 of them.

UG

[ 04-09-2003, 07:04 AM: Message edited by: Uglygreen ]

Straydog · 04-09-2003, 06:06 AM

UG,

You can not produce a post that I have made that is as disrespectful, rude and boorish as the two you and Dan have made. In fact, this is a challenge. Come on, put some facts behind your post. Show me how these posts represent how I conduct myself on this board.

If calling young people 'kids' is so bad in your mind to justify yours and Dan's behaviour again, I don't care to have anything to do with the 'pack'.

[ 04-09-2003, 07:07 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

Uglygreen · 04-09-2003, 06:08 AM

If you caught some TV this morning those "kids" are stomping all over Saddams butt. I for one am quite proud of the MEN and WOMEN in our armed forces.

UG

speyfly · 04-09-2003, 06:11 AM

Did somebody wake up on the wrong side of the bed or what? :shocked:

Straydog · 04-09-2003, 06:12 AM

Hey, my ego let's me even be proud of kids, as I am this morning.

Howver, don't change the subject. I have presented a challenge to you. Either back your post with facts or delete it before the mods do.

You got the guts to do the right thing or is it too important what the 'pack' thinks of you?

Uglygreen · 04-09-2003, 06:13 AM

Straydog: "You can not produce a post that I have made that is as disrespectful, rude and boorish as the two you and Dan have made. In fact, this is a challenge. Come on, put some facts behind your post. Show me how these posts represent how I conduct myself on this board."

Straydog: "I have to ask though, if 'stray dog' means I am a loner and looking for ways to go against the grain, just what does 'ugly green' mean, "snotty attitude"?"

UG

Uglygreen · 04-09-2003, 06:16 AM

HELP HELP HELP - Send in the mod squad! I was the victem of a personal attack. Sombody said I have a snotty attitude! Where is the AUP?

UG

Straydog · 04-09-2003, 06:17 AM

Dan's has already been deleted. Yours is below. Are you suggesting asking if your moniker means 'snotty attitude' is equal to the peeling you gave me? Show me how I take a contrary attitude to 'everything'. Tell me about my 'identity and ego thing." Tell me about making myself feel important. Come on, you brought this up, now back it up.

Quote:

Originally posted by Uglygreen:
Dan,

SD is not part of the "pack", its obviously an identity or ego thing. Probably going against the grain all the time is part of how he makes himself feel important.

Even look at his moniker, "stray dog". The man seems to like to take a contrary position on anything and everything. Just read between the lines and let it roll of your back - water under the bridge.

UG

Straydog · 04-09-2003, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Uglygreen:
[b] Straydog:

I just think calling the men and women in our armed forces a buncha "kids" is both condisending and disrespectful. "Snotty" as you put it. Seems that you could take a little of what you dish out.

And yes, I have kids, 5 of them.

UG

If this really "just" what you think, then delete the rest of the garbage and "just" say so.

It is your call, you can edit your post and say "just" what you now say you meant.

Uglygreen · 04-09-2003, 06:35 AM

SD - I am fine with everything I said, If the mods feel anything here is a violation of the AUP I'm sure they will edit it and tell me why.

Anyone can review your recent posts and see that you like to be contrairian and stir the pot. I don't even think thats a bad thing sometimes. But call a spade a spade.

UG

Straydog · 04-09-2003, 06:42 AM

Yup, I do enjoy a good debate and do tend to look at things differently than some, although I think I generally have a fair amount of agreement from others in my view. (take a tally on this very thread, for evidence.)

That said, it is more than a little presumptuous to link that to ego, control and the feeling of importance, as you said. Perhaps you are a shrink and this is what your training tells you about me or perhaps you were 'just' lashing out at someone with an opinion contrary to yours and lacking a strong argument against that view, you chose to attack my character.

Which is it?

The Fishing Geek · 04-09-2003, 06:50 AM

Out of control, topic closed.