Sad news on the homefront......

[Straydog]

This is very bad news and will impact all of us in So. Oregon.

However, please note that there is not a word about it being the environmentalists or the spotted owl or the marbled murrelet (sp?). It is about the economy and market forces. Nothing more, nothing less.

Roseburg plywood layoffsi

[GutshotApe]

Originally posted by Straydog:
......please note that there is not a word about it being the environmentalists or the spotted owl or the marbled murrelet (sp?). It is about the economy and market forces. Nothing more, nothing less.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Yeah, it is about economics and market forces....and the environmentalists have succeeded in shutting off most USFS and BLM timber sales that Roseburg's mills relied on for raw materials....and driving up the cost of the small amount of timber still available. And it is about Canadian lumber imports and the unfair govt. subsidy Canadian producers receive ($7/MBF stumpage compared to the $450/MBF in the US).

[Snapset]

Once all of the manufacturing jobs have been exported, all goods will be imports. The only exports we will have left to provide will be services, and during the economic cycles, these won't be needed. Say hello to huge trade deficits, financed by foreign purchases of American capital. Once the country is owned by foreigners, I guess we wil have to start listening to them, won't we.

Buy American!

Dog,
When are you going to post about the Fed bios wanting more Trinity River water to save the salmon in the Klamath River from another dieoff below the Trinity, like last year?

[Straydog]

Keta,

Guess I missed it. Sounds good! Maybe a link rather than a shrug would be beneficial! [img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img]

[ 04-02-2003, 10:47 PM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[GutshotApe]

More bad economic news: Sony has announced closure of its Springfield CD factory eliminating 277 jobs. In 1995 Sony was granted multi-million dollar tax waivers to locate in Spgfd. and the closure coincides with the expiration of those waivers. The Sony job losses follow over 500 similar high-tech jobs lost when HMT Tech. and Rosen Products recently bailed out of Eugene-Springfield.

I'm curious, Straydog, as to what sort of calculus the sport fishing tackle industry uses in determining the effects of plant closures, whether high-tech or lumber...do you figure a net gain or loss for your business? Do unemployed people who can (and many do) fish every day buy more tackle than employed people who fish only on weekends? :whazzup:

[Straydog]

GSA,

I can't share any mathmatical formulas but experience tell me that part of my business goes up during times of high unemployment. Not a big spike like the last couple of years of good fish returns but a noticable spike in what we call the consumables of the business........... hooks, swivels, weights and bait. Higher ticket items generally slow down a bit. My guess is if one were to put a pencil to it, it may be close to a push. However, there are better margins in the comsumables.

By the way, that is indeed bad news about the loss of jobs in the Willamette Valley... too bad we don't have a President as good at boosting the whole economy as he is at boosting the weapons manufacturing sector.

Keta,

Was there some news about the Klamath/Trinity or were you just looking to give me a hard time?

[ 04-03-2003, 07:34 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[GutshotApe]

More sad news: Yesterday, Seneca Sawmill in Eugene announced it was cutting 115 workers from its mill workforce. Seneca cited low-priced wood imports from Canada and a lack of federal logs to run the mill for causing the move.

Seneca is no obsolete, antique sawmill that just can't compete...it is THE prime example of a state-of-the-art sawmill with computers, lasers, new equipment, etc. Seneca's dimension lumber is widely regarded as being the best you can buy.

305 workers remain employed at Seneca processing logs from their own tree farm and logs from small, non-industrial landowners in the area...but 115 are out of a job.

When you drive around SW Oregon and see the forests...millions of acres of trees growing on the best commercial forestry land in the world...but not being utilized...and hear of another 115 families that have lost their primary income due to a "lack of logs", it makes you wonder... :whazzup: :depressed:

[Straydog]

GSA,

Why do you insist and telling the whole story in your "lead" yet only half the story in your "summary"?

And you wonder why some of us are skeptical in what the industry backers tell us? You put it from two causes to one in a very short post.

Yes, it makes you wonder indeed...........

[ 04-04-2003, 07:59 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[GutshotApe]

SD - What? :whazzup:

[Straydog]

Originally posted by GutshotApe:
Seneca cited low-priced wood imports from Canada and a lack of federal logs to run the mill for causing the move.

..............

..and hear of another 115 families that have lost their primary income due to a "lack of logs", it makes you wonder... :whazzup: :depressed:

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Again, makes one wonder......

Good timing, this type of context adjustment of facts is what your boys on Rant Radio do so well.

The last sentence of your post constitutes a lie since your feel compelled to put only half the reasons the mill is closing. I guess that is why entertainers make the big bucks, they don't tell us the whole story then use only half the story to make their point. They just use the part that fits their agenda right from the get go.

Keep at it, you will get it right yet! :grin:

[ 04-04-2003, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[Albacore Tuna Captain]

Straydog I see was he was saying. Due to the cheap import of foriegn wood products, the U.S. company could not compete due to a lack of cheap logs being available to them. Quite simple.

[Straydog]

Yet still a two pronged problem which he and evidently you are comfortable in reducing to a single issue.

Saying it is so dosen't make it so........

You very clearly express our underlying problem with this and many other issues. No, it is not quite simple. Our economy, whether it be the timber part, the high tech part or the tourism part is not quite simple at all, it is very complex with many intertwined issues.

It is when we try to make it overly simple that we let the facts fall by the wayside and remain in a staredown.

[ 04-04-2003, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[GutshotApe]

Originally posted by Straydog:
[Good timing, this type of context adjustment of facts is what your boys on Rant Radio do so well.

The last sentence of your post constitutes a lie since your feel compelled to put only half the reasons the mill is closing.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">My "boys"? You're the one who cited the radio talkers, not me.

A lie? That's just a little over the top, Straydoggie .

OK, if it makes you feel better, when I drive around SW Oregon and see millions of acres of under-utilized, highly-productive, renewable forests...and I see truckload after truckload and railcar after railcar of Canadian lumber coming down the I-5 corridor...it makes ME wonder. You apparently have it all figured out...but I don't.

[Snapset]

What a day, I am agreeing with Straydog. I don't doubt that the lack of logs is part of the problem, but no business decisions are based on only one factor. If Seneca has mature timber holdings, they could very well keep running, only with a lower profit margin. On the other hand, they know that lumber prices are cyclical, and would probably prefer to do most of their selling when prices are high. The only losers when they run their business like this are the displaced people who are out of work.

I don't know much about Seneca, so this may or may not apply to them: From what I have seen, most mills couldn't care less how many breadwinners are out of work. No where in their business plan is providing stable employment a priority. They are in business to make a profit for the owners, period. The sooner we all accept this fact, the sooner we can understand and predict how those companies are going to act.

Often in union plants, the company will use temporary layoffs as a way to sift the workers to get rid of those they don't want around.

[Straydog]

GSA,

Please, make no mistake. I have never claimed to "have it all figured out" and make no such claim today. Those are your words only.

Having said that, I sure as heck know there is more to it than the lack of federal
timber!!

One more little detail...... "Lie. To tell a lie or convey a false image or impression." Ending your statement by saying the demise of Seneca was due to lack of federal timber creates a false image and there-fore was a lie, plain and simple. Any further questions? Does this pull me back from the dark hole of 'over the top'?

Further, Snapset is right. Any business is there to make a profit. Maintaining jobs is simply a means to an end.

He is also right about the union's way of seperating the chaf. As I have shared in the past, when my dad worked for So Ply and then Medco, every Christmas season was greeted with a free turkey and pink slip....

[ 04-04-2003, 09:37 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[GutshotApe]

Originally posted by Snapset:
I don't know much about Seneca, so this may or may not apply to them: From what I have seen, most mills couldn't care less how many breadwinners are out of work. No where in their business plan is providing stable employment a priority. They are in business to make a profit for the owners, period. The sooner we all accept this fact, the sooner we can understand and predict how those companies are going to act.

Often in union plants, the company will use temporary layoffs as a way to sift the workers to get rid of those they don't want around.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I don't work for Seneca but I know a little about the outfit. It is owned by one man who is a multi-millionaire with other interests too and as far as I can tell, keeps operating the mill for the fun of it...to show the Weycos of the world how it should be done. The Seneca mill in Eugene truely is "state of the art". Seneca seems to place a high value on their non-union employees and has only had one previous layoff (in the 1981 recession) after which all were hired back.

Seneca isn't shutting down...they are laying off about 25% of the workers due to a shortage of logs at prices low enough to compete against the unfairly subsidized Canadian lumber. Seneca will continue operating at reduced capacity.

Logs are in short supply because the 50% of Oregon forests that are federally-owned are no longer producing anywhere near their potential...something on the order of 5% of what could be produced. So, that runs up the price of other logs. And, the going rate for Oregon stumpage is about $550 per MBF for #2 sawlogs...Canadian firms with long-term "concessions" pay the Canadian govt. less than $10 per MBF for the same type of log. You do the math. Its a wonder Seneca or any other mill can stay in business at all.

That giant sucking sound is the sound of US forest and mill jobs being sent north...can you say NAFTA? :depressed:

[Straydog]

GSA,

Now you are making some sense. Ref. your NAFTA comment.

Thank you!

[GutshotApe]

Boy! I'm sure glad you think I'm making sense...

Actually, NAFTA is only part of the problem. If the federal forests hadn't been turned into owl preserves, there would be a lot more logs on the market at prices that would allow more US mills (and jobs) to exist.

Snapset remarked (and I think you agree) that mill owners don't care about the welfare of their workers...that may be true to an extent but is not a universal truth. I'd say the average mill owner I've met cares a LOT more about the workers than does the average American voter (more spotted owls, please!) or American consumer (bring on the cheap imports!).

No, I don't think I told a lie...and one might say you do seem to still be a little over the top with the sermonizing, snide remarks, and negative inferences that permeate so many of your posts, SD.

GSA

[Straydog]

"No, I don't think I told a lie...and one might say you do seem to still be a little over the top with the sermonizing, snide remarks, and negative inferences that permeate so many of your posts, SD."

Yes one might. One that dosen't know me beyond electric communication or one that takes himself too seriously or one that takes this form of communication too seriously. Or, one looking only for negatives and making judgments on limited information.

Further, given the definition of 'lie', how can you say your post was otherwise?

You are right, NAFTA is only part of the problem. One of several problems. As I have said, it is much more complex than most want to admit. You forgot that when you reduced your comment to "lack of logs" evidently. Not being snide, simply pointing out the facts.

Lighten up GSA, it will be ok....... [img]graemlins/hearton.gif[/img]

[ 04-04-2003, 10:39 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[Straydog]

Originally posted by GutshotApe:
Boy! I'm sure glad you think I'm making sense...
GSA

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">A little snide, dontcha think??

That's ok, I can take it.