Demoralizing the Iraqi Military

[Born to be Wild]

I kinda hate to become an armchair quarterback, but it looks as though they are demoralizing the Iraqi Military and regime now. I made a comment on one of the threads; "you can run, but you can't hide". These guys obviously don't realize how great our technology is. Things are going to start unraveling real quick from here on I believe.

Let's get it over with and liberate Iraq. I'm proud to be an American.

Also, I don't know that it is such a bad threat of these terrorist coming over to fight. Let them experience the full brunt of the American military and get rid of them now instead of later.

[feisty's wife]

I am not proud of the fact that we are now an agressor nation. Since when do we have the right to "liberate " any peaple who has a gov we do not like? Why do we not take on China, their human righta are non-existant, or maybe Russia, N. Korea? This is not about liberating a peaple, this is oil and the DOLLAR. Folks, Saddam told us he would no longer accept American dollars, only the Euro, this was not the thing to do. I am not proud of my Gov at this momeny in time, and have not been for years. Rant off.

[The Fishing Geek]

Iraqis would be happier if they had Big Macs.

[metalhead madness]

AMERICA LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT!!!!!!! The issue is not oil. The issue is terrorism. Having lost someone in 9-11 I personally don't want anymore terrorism on my soil. I think the liberating thing is media hype. Do we want to wait until they use chemical weopons in our schools and our neighborhoods. I don't! The people need to be free. Look what he is doing to his people. Using them as human sheilds!?! Now that is a leader who cares about his people. I know that many people are anti troops. I for one thank god above that we have men and women that feel so strong about protecting our country they are willing to die for it. Are you? Many Americans take our liberties for granted. Try protesting the goverment in Iraq. When terrorism strikes close to home and you lose loved ones I think you'll have a little different opinion of why we are doing what we are. Until then continue to waste your and my time by tying up traffic in protests. Keeping people from getting home to their families. And disrespecting our goverment. I may not like everything about the goverment but with out it where would we be? LIFE, LIBERTY, AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS.

just my opinion

[Silver Hilton]

Metalhead,

it's been said a few times before, but it probably bears repeating: all the evidence currently indicates that Iraq didn't have anything to do with 9/11. Nothing. Zip, zero, zilch. Even the Bush administration has backed off from saying that Iraq has any ties to Al Qaeda.

I'm sorry for the loss of your friend. All of America was saddened. But it's not clear to many of us that our efforts in Iraq will have anything to do with reducing the risk of terrorist acts going forward. Indeed, it looks a lot like this is going to increase anti American sentiment going forward, which is what caused 9/11 in the first place.

It's all fine and good for you to wrap yourself in the flag and accuse of those of us who think past the Fox news cheerleading of being anti-american and anti-troop. I haven't met a single person yet who is anti-troop, and I dare say you haven't either. You're just carelessly and viciously slandering those who are disagree with you as being unpatriotic and unworthy of life in this country.

Which is exactly what Saddam Hussein does.

[ 04-02-2003, 09:06 AM: Message edited by: Silver Hilton ]

[Born to be Wild]

Well Silver Hilton, we will know a lot more about Saddams involvement with terrorism and WMD's soon. We already know he is involved in terrorism. Ask the Israeli's. Heck, your family can get a check signed by Saddam for $25,000 if you become a suicide bomber. Some Al Quaeda have already been destroyed in northern Iraq and there is evidence that some Al Quaeda have been in Bagdad this past year.

Anyway, when it's over, there will be a lot of Iraqi's talking. Hope you don't have a week stomach.

[Snapset]

Saddams' win at all costs strategy involves making the war so unpalatable to the American people that the war will be cancelled due to public outcry. The louder the outcry the longer he will be encouraged to allow the slaughter of his own people to maintain his power. If he were to simply step down, the war could probably be over in weeks with very few additional casualties, but human life means nothing to him, so I wonder if he would continue his reign until he was the last Iraqi left alive. If any of you get a chance to read an Updike book called "The Coup", give it a try. It does not directly apply to Iraq but I think it adds some insight to the psychology of nations not our own.

The following logic diminishes our ability to demoralize the Iraqi soldiers:
All the big decisions are made by people insulated from the immediate effects of our attempt to demoralize the Iraqi armed forces.

In order to get to the decision makers, it looks like we are going to have to kill the people protecting them, and from what I see this will happen in layers:
Saddam
His spawn.
Military leaders
Fedayeen
Republican Guard
Regular Army
Innocent civilians used as human shields.

Saddam apparently wants to make us start from the bottom and work our way up. Let's hope that our militaries "Surgical Precision" is deft enough to excise the tumor without destroying the body.

[ 04-02-2003, 10:56 AM: Message edited by: Snapset ]

[Hoosier Daddy]

I don't buy the "war is for oil". We will still be buying it from them, as we have been all along. Protecting the right to buy it, maybe, but we ain't going to just take it and get it for free from now on.

[Born to be Wild]

Well, I'm not sure saddam is alive or running the country anymore. (Ah, he doesn't deserve a capital S). If he is running it, I suspect it is from a hospital bed. These guys are starting to realize they are getting there butts kicked now that we are in there own backyard. It is my hope they will bail. I think it will end soon.

[Silver Hilton]

Depoe, I'm not disagreeing that Saddam is a bad guy that we're better off rid of. Now that we're there, I want this war followed through on. But I'll bet that in ten years, we will look back on this war as an expensive mistake. I won't mind being proven wrong, but that is my assessment of the political situation.

We keep throwing around these discussions of weapons of mass destruction as if they have anything to do with our country's safety. It's sloppy logic. The various acts of terrorism that have taken place over the past ten years have all involved simple explosives and relatively low tech means. The gas attack in Japan involved local religious fanatics. Any advanced college chemistry student can make sarin or ricin (which comes from, if I'm not mistaken, castor beans). The various attacks on assets of the US have involved explosives and local religious fanatics. The fanatics have their passions whipped up by the clergy in Egypt, Arabia, Pakistan, and other muslim countries that are supposedly our allies. The war in Iraq, while probably being helpful in the long term for stability in the region, is already demonstrably increasing the passion level of these religious fundamentalists.

So, let's see. None of the attacks thus far have used gas or germs, they have used explosives and airplanes. Those, unfortunately, are widely available around the world. None of the attacks involved Iraqis - they involved predominantly saudi citizens. So we are currently targeting neither the individuals or the weapons that have been used in the past.

I'm not quite sure what you are referring to with regards to Isreal. If it's the scuds, well, that seems more like an act of war. He was at war at the time, and he used a missle, which is traditionally an instrument of war. Maybe I'm not understanding your point.

It is obviously true that Hussein has weapons that are supposed to be prohibited to him. This doesn't surprise me or anyone. It's just not clear that it is relevant. It has never been logical that he would sell them - to have done so would have started this war that is about to end his career. He doesn't need to for the money - he's fabulously rich. Until now, he didn't really care about hurting the US, because we didn't have what he wanted. We aren't the neighbor he wanted to dominate, and his entire strategy was to incrementally increase his power in the region while trying to avoid crossing the threshold that would incite action by the international community. He was largely successful, until he had the poor fortune to have the republicans win the presidency in the US.

Whether we like it or not, he has the weapons, and he is motivating the suicide bombers, because they are one of the few tactics he has to fight us with. It wouldn't be an issue if we weren't marching to the 7-11 in downtown Baghdad. We can huff and puff about them all we want, but let's remember - he's losing. He's up against the most powerful military force in the world, and if he's caught, he will likely be put to death, or, what is perhaps worse, imprisoned with common criminals for the rest of his (likely to be short) life. Why are we surprised that he's not fighting fair? What has he got to lose? Unless we give him a rational option, he will continue to use any means possible to make the war costly on us, and a propanganda nightmare for us in the court of world opinion.

I don't mind the US using force. I'm a big fan of us protecting our safety. However, it seems to me that our use of this force is likely to compromise that safety in the long run. The war in Iraq may well have a positive effect in some areas. But it is an expensive, non-responsive effort as regards the threats to the US. Or anyway, that's my belief based on the stuff I have seen and read. It is certainly possible that more evidence will emerge that will indicate that this view is incorrect, and I'll be happy to sing the mea culpas if that's the case.

If you are really worried about the threats to you and your family, ask yourself what is happening in Korea.

Finally, it is possible to love and support one's country, troops and president, even if you believe they are doing the wrong thing, just as it is possible to love a relative that is destroying themselves with alcohol, for example. Love and respect have little to do with whether you agree. Or at least that's what I keep telling my wife.

[GutshotApe]

Originally posted by Silver Hilton:
It is certainly possible that more evidence will emerge that will indicate that this view is incorrect, and I'll be happy to sing the mea culpas if that's the case.

If you are really worried about the threats to you and your family, ask yourself what is happening in Korea.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">SH - I think you and a lot of others will be surprised at what we find once Soddom is gone...so get ready to sing!

And, if the little dwarf and his goons don't shape up, and fast, North Korea is next.

[feisty's wife]

Folks, WMD"s WILL be found, wheether they are there or not, they WILL be found, get my drift? The GOV, as ALWAYS, Will lie to us to justify WHATEVER they do. Bank on it

[Silver Hilton]

Everyone who is hanging their hat on whether WMDs will be found is kind of missing the point. It's pretty likely that he has them. He had them before, he had no incentive to not try to continue to have them. The question is what they implied as to regional safety and to the safety of the US.

The answer to that question will perhaps never really be known, as it would require honest information from the Iraqi leadership and from the terrorist leadership that they 'might' have been consorting with.

It's pretty unlikely that we're going to find a gas bomb in a crate labeled with a US destination address.

[1pump]

IMHO, we're putting ourselves at far greater risk by instigating this conflict than we would have by continuing as we were. There were Arab and Islamic nations that sympathized with us after 9/11. There certainly aren't many now. Just the ones that want our money and protection.
I don't give a rat's arse if the Iraqis have WMDs' or not (I'm sure they do, regardless). So we find a huge cache of nerve agents or anthrax....then what? The people who developed those weapons will escape in the chaos while Baghdad burns, and will soon be seeking employment with the highest bidder. Maybe Iran, Syria, Yemen, Pakistan or one of the FSU Republics? Do we repeat the whole process and chase WMD rumors through every rogue state? How about Pakistan? We know they have nukes, their government's unstable, they're only superficially friendly to the US, and that one guy, oh, what's his name...oh,yeah, Osama bin Laden is rumored to be hanging out in their turf. So why didn't we go after them? :whazzup:

[feisty's wife]

Do I detect a note of cynicism or distrust here?No, culdnt be

[bigshark]

Silver Hilton

You say you haven't met or heard of anyone who was "anti troops". Can you tell me what all the flap was about today in portland when the mayor
refused to allow an Honor Guard for the body of the fallen Oregon service man? This hate that is surfacing among us is not helping anything. Your opinion is yours and your right. To do this thing to the family of this young man is less than honorable. I hope it is not true. Perhaps it was the biased viewpoint of the one accusing her. I do not know. But if not true why would other cities ask if they could provide it?

[corrirod]

You're right Feisty, it's all a conspiracy, a huge coverup! Shhhhhhh, don't tell anyone we know or the feds will be knocking at our door to put bullets in our heads. O.k. go back to your bomb shelter now and don't come out till I call you when the coast is clear.

What is an "agressor nation"?

I thought China, Russia, and North Korea were already on the list? If not let's get them on there right away!

SilverHilton,

Since 9/11 the rules have changed in warfare. Because of the success of that event we now have to look behind every door, check under every table, and continually look over our shoulders as a country. We are vulnerable and Bin Laden exploited that, thus paving the way for others to demoralize our country. Look at the effects of that event SH, look at the effect it had on our economy, our morale, our way of life.

You mention that "if" Hussein had WMD's you still don't think it's "relevant" for us to go to war. If Saddam's reign of terror in that country and his ability to harbor WMD's is not enough, then what is?

Whether we like it or not we are the global police. It's part of the responsibilities that come with being THE superpower. The job was forced upon us when the Soviet Union collapsed. I imagine things would be a little different if that resonsiblity had been handed to Saddam as opposed to the U.S., don't you think?

The other responsiblity that comes with being a superpower is protecting the superpower itself. That means eliminating possible threats. Notice we have targeted specific regimes and not civilians. We fight regimes not conquer countries. I think we show great restraint in that respect.

This whole situation is just like watching a mugging take place and not doing anything cause your afraid to get involved or might get hurt. I'm just glad our president decided to do something about it. Out of all the nation's leaders capable of stopping these acts of terror OUR President got off his behind and did something about it. [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

And Feisty, does this mean our gas prices will go back to under a $1.00 a gallon?

[Silver Hilton]

Corrirod,

You say that, since 9/11, the rules have changed. I disagree. They are the same as they have always been, for hundreds of years. Ever see the movie "Gladiator"? Remember the first scene? That's us. We're confident that in any pitched battle, we will dominate. So what is any group that opposes us going to do? Well, if they're smart, they're not going to enter into a pitched battle. Rome won the pitched battles - but a lowly carpenter from Nazareth eventually dominated the empire.

I'm not a peacenik. I'm a pragmatist. Military force wins wars, but it doesn't create peace. See for example Israel.

We are unpopular in the world. We are resented for our wealth, despised for our hollywood culture, and hated for our support of repressive regimes. These include the regime in Iraq (remember, he's our boy), Iran (the Shah), Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Kuwait, and Isreal. If we want to take a real step to reduce terrorism, it will have to contain some thinking about how we relate to these nations.

I think, and have said many times before, that it is worthwhile to take out Hussein. He has designs on taking over his neighbors, he's vicious and oppressive, he destabilizes the region, etc. The WMDs are a nice little excuse, but they are only that, an excuse. Sadly, the American people have been conditioned by years of TV sound bites to be too lazy to think through complex arguments, so we throw slick little terms like WMDs around, and incite fear that they pose a threat to us, rather than have the adult conversation about how, for this dictator, we believe we should hasten his departure from the world, for these reasons.

There are great, humanitarian reasons to support the overthrow of Hussein. It's sad that we as a people don't find those sufficent.

As to being the global police, I disagree. First of all, it's not a role I want for the US. I don't want my tax dollars being used for it, I want them spent here.

Second, this seems to be another convenient justification. If we are the world police, why aren't we in Mexico, fixing the corruption there? How about East Timor? How about Burma? How about Chechnya?

Recent articles in the New Yorker indicate that the Bush adminstration had decided to invade by early last summer. Subsequent events seem to have been orchestrated to get the American people to go along.

Again, I'm not so much against taking Hussein out, as I am against being manipulated by my government. And that is what is happening.

I'm also against our government taking foolish, poorly thought out action that will increase, rather than reduce the danger to our children. Opinions differ on what the results of this war will be - we'll know in ten years.

[Albacore Tuna Captain]

Fiesty if a wmd bite you on the tail side, you wouldn't believe it came from anywhere but the U.S. Government. And by the way, the American people ARE the U.S. Government. You and your types who are always willing to believe the government is all evil are only showing your ignorance of the world. You should read your posts. According to what you have read and seen, the government is behind every sinister plot in the world. Wake up and grow up. Read, listen and be willing to learn, you might find that your presciption of the world could change. Yes, wmd will be found in Iraq, but to imply that the U.S. will put them there to justify its actions is so childish that I can't believe I'm even responding to your gibberish.

[crabbait]

Demoralizing? Is that what we call it when there is not enough left to scrape up and put in a bag?

[feisty's wife]

The folks now serving in Iraq are not "Protecting their country", they are protecting the oil and the DOLLAR

[feisty's wife]

Ho HUm, then do not read my post, you might learn something. Im sure you beleive the Gov is here to help you,I Sir, am also a VET , like a lot of the VETS&lt; screwed by the gov. Have a nice day.

[feisty's wife]

Excuse me, one last point...the Gov never did commit the acts at Ruby Ridge, and attempt to cover them up, did they? Oh, and Waco...who cares, they were just some kooks, huh? My, I remember what it was like to be trusting and naive.Remember, our Gov would NEVER do those things, would they? Oh well, some say...as long as they leave me alone...snore...back to sleep, America

[metalhead madness]

Looks like no one wants to reply to ignorance

(Everybody see this post? This is over the line! Don't call people names or you will be reading...not posting! - crabbait)

[ 04-04-2003, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: crabbait ]

[feisty's wife]

Metalhead, Thats nice...I am also free to express my opinion, whether anyone wants to reply is something I care not about. Have a nice day.

[DanS]

Looks like no one wants to reply to ignorance

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Hello pot, meet the kettle. Your "love it or leave it" is at the top of the ignorance heap.

(DanS - Just because he did it does not mean you can do it. Stop the name calling and "ignorant" is a name. - crabbait)

[ 04-04-2003, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: crabbait ]

[metalhead madness]

I agree on crabbaits edit I did cross the line. My thoughts on terroism have clouded my ediquette since losing my Brother in 9/11. I do apoligize to Feisty for MY ignorance. Name calling is un called for. I do think there will be a different mind set if something happens close to home. God forbid. :depressed:

[timinthegorge]

Feisty..... just wonderin'. Do you wear an aluminum hat to bed? Conspiracy's are everywhere! The sky is falling, and we're headin' down the wrong road. NOT!

If you haven't noticed, Nixon is dead.

Tim

[Born to be Wild]

[ 04-06-2003, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: DepoeBayDan ]