Reality Check

HeavyMetal BankFisherman · 03-27-2003, 06:29 PM

I know that I like many people hoped for a quick Shock and Awe campaign but in the back of my mind I knew that this might not happen. I was hoping up until this past weekend that we we would be able to get this done quick. Hoping for white flags and cheering civilians. As many people most likely share my sentiments, the news over the weekend was not the news I was hoping to hear.

It has been a tough week for all Americans. Learning of increasing casualties has been unnerving and has put many people on edge. I have noticed that many people previously opposed to the war are now changing thier stance after seeing the true colors of this brutal regime.

The best thing for all Americans to do is to Support Our Troops. I am done with the protests. I am just going to ignore them the best I can. I am not going to focus on these events that do nothing but cause havoc and degrade the great country we live in. If people want to lie down in the middle of the street then let them. Ths is America and those are the freedoms our brave soldiers are fighting for.

As huge numbers of American Soldiers are still being deployed it is even more important to Support Our Troops. We have all seen what is going on in Iraq. As these brave men and women board planes heading to Iraq I wonder what must be going through thier minds. They have seen the images of the battlefield yet they board those planes unsure of thier fate. The courage that is inherent in Americans is something we should all be proud of. We are the greatest nation. Our men and women are the bravest. Our society is the greatest in history. I am proud to be an American.

Support Our Troops
http://www.uso.org

[ 03-27-2003, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: HeavyMetal BankFisherman ]

The Fishing Geek · 03-27-2003, 07:01 PM

Oh yes, I support our troops. I love them so much that I want them to come home, so that they'll quit fighting this war.

HeavyMetal BankFisherman · 03-27-2003, 07:24 PM

I want to see this war over as well. I want to see our troops back safe. The reality is we have gone too far to turn back now. I hope this will be over as soon as possible. I guess everything changes when people start to die. I still think we are doing the right thing. War is a sad thing to see.

[ 03-27-2003, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: HeavyMetal BankFisherman ]

mirage · 03-27-2003, 08:55 PM

I agree heavy m, This war is really sad too see.Pbs tonite said at least 120,000 more troops will be sent into iraq. We likely soon be locked into a death match (Bagdad)with escalating civilian violence till the end. [img]graemlins/icon_argue.gif[/img] WE will not back down and saddam is caged with nothing to lose. I hope our conscience requires us too make iraq a better place, thru it will take years for the fears and memories to disapere.

03-27-2003, 11:22 PM

I didn't support this war but now that we are over there let's get the job done! We should not leave the job in Iraq unfinished...like Vietnam.
It's kind of funny that people based their opinion that this war would be a walk over like the one in 1991. I'm betting that the military knew it would be tough going and the media were the ones who thought it would be a cakewalk.
I agree that we need to support our troops and stand united behind them. Remember the 2004 election is still a ways off and that will be the best place to let you opinion be heard.

[ 03-28-2003, 12:35 AM: Message edited by: Stew ]

1pump · 03-27-2003, 11:30 PM

Quote:

I know that I like many people hoped for a quick Shock and Awe campaign but in the back of my mind I knew that this might not happen. I was hoping up until this past weekend that we we would be able to get this done quick. Hoping for white flags and cheering civilians. As many people most likely share my sentiments, the news over the weekend was not the news I was hoping to hear.

Hmmm....where have I heard this before.....oh, I know, it was at the Pentagon briefing the other day. Rumsfeld didn't use those exact words, but as he was speaking I saw a cartoon balloon form above his head and the above text was in it.

What the hell did he expect?? DeGaulle coming home to Paris in 1944? To the Iraqis we're an invading army, no more, no less. With the exception of the Kurds, they hate us as much as they fear Saddam. There are many, many reasons for this and I'm not going to get into that here.
GW has the distinction of losing a popularity contest to Saddam Hussein.
We will prevail. But at what cost?
There's your reality check.

1pump · 03-27-2003, 11:54 PM

Quote:

It's kind of funny that people based their opinion that this war would be a walk over like the one in 1991. I'm betting that the military knew it would be tough going and the media were the ones who thought it would be a cakewalk.

Yeah, I saw a lot of those opinions on this board.

The political and tactical situation this time is much different than in 1991. The hawks didn't seem to notice, though.

The media, due to their propensity for hearing what they want to hear, heard "3 day" or "1 week" war. They were never told this, at least not for the record. Nobody mentioned a timetable. Now they're spouting defeatism because it's been a little over a week and they're not running around in downtown Baghdad interviewing adoring Iraqis.
And they have the audacity to complain about Al-Jazeera. [img]graemlins/eek13.gif[/img]

Thumper · 03-28-2003, 01:56 AM

Come on people --- get a grip! As wars go, this one is indeed a cakewalk. In one week (yep - seven whole days) we occupy or control the majority of the country of Iraq, totally dominate the air and occupy its only seaport, control access to its capitol, and have done so while preserving the essential economic base of the country (its oil).

And we have done all that with fewer than 50 deaths of coalition troops. No uprisings have occured in neighboring Arab countries. The Turks are cooperating. The Israelis are staying out of the fray. France, Russia and the rest of the UN are getting in line at the feed trough to play post-war roles in the country.

If anyone had projected that kind of smashing success a few weeks ago they would have been considered as completely nuts.

Portland, Oregon has a population of 480,000 people and abut 30 deaths a day (34 obituaries in this morning's paper, for example). That is a death rate of 1 per 14,000 people per day. The coalition has about 300,000 people in the Iraqi theater of operations. About 3-5 of those people die each day prosecuting this war, for a death rate of about 1 per 75,000 per day, or one-fifth the death rate of the city of Portland. It is actually far safer to be a coalition combatant in this war than to live your daily life in any American city.

We are taking the strongest of all measures to protect the citizens of Iraq, even its combatants. We triage and treat the Iraqi soldier's war wounds along with those of our own soldiers without preference. Our soldiers stop in their daily lives to treat the asthmatic attack of an Iraqi POW. We are spending a fortune and risking our own lives to bring food and water to save the lives of thousands of Iraqi citizens.

This war is an amazing, utterly smashing success. And for that you can credit some mighty fine Americans and other coalition friendlies, both those wearing uniforms and the civilian leaders in charge. They are absolutely brilliant.

Be proud of what you and your fellow citizens are doing in Afganistan and Irag to make this world a safer place. And make no mistake about it --- the world is finally becoming a truly safer place.

[ 03-28-2003, 06:58 AM: Message edited by: Thumper ]

GutshotApe · 03-28-2003, 06:42 AM

Wow Thumper, that was well put! You're right on and should send that post to the Oregonian as a letter to the editor. Seriously.

The Iraqi incursion may not be keeping to the schedule the TV talkers would like, but it is a success, so far. The tide will turn and Soddom's regime will suddenly collapse...sooner I hope, rather than later.

Pilar · 03-28-2003, 07:50 AM

Thanks, Thumper ...

We may have less than a smashing success replacing the despot government in the accursed country. That's the part I'm concerned about. Hussein will go away but we will be there, spending our tax money for years to come.

Degner · 03-28-2003, 08:57 AM

you are right on thumper, I find it amazeing that some would lable our progress so far anything else than an outstanding success. It is almost an insult to our troops to suggest otherwise. They are doing a great job. We are invading a highly militarized state, fighting a enemy that has nothing to lose(as some of them likely would be executed as war criminals after a regime change given their present and past action), our supply lines are working, though any casualties are a great loss, we have few. In one weeks time we control most of the country and have their main forces nearly surrounded. As far as conducting a war, what more can you ask for? What do you expect? If you expect more, time to return to earth.

Nuttinbutnet · 03-28-2003, 09:15 AM

What is beginning to irritate me are the comments of some of the back line reporters in Kuwait second guessing our military strategies. Sitting there with nothing of real interest to report, they turn into armchair quarterbacks. To all the News Services- Report the factual happenings and let the Military run the war. You do what you were trained(?) for and let the Military do what they were trained for. It seems like if we don't gobble up 40 miles a day, the reports seem to take on an air of defeatism. I guess the different news services are trying to come up with new angles everyday to get the top ratings.

speyfly · 03-28-2003, 09:17 AM

Don't be fooled kids. This war won't end anytime soon. We will have troops there for years to come and they will continue to be killed as long as they are there. Yes the Iraqi's would like to see Saddam gone but they sure as hell don't want us there either.

Hoosier Daddy · 03-28-2003, 12:35 PM

Thumper, I don't disagree with some of your point. However, your count of deaths is probably all deaths, I think you would want to exclude natural and illness deaths and stick to violent crime type stuff if you want to compare how safe it is to walk where. I kind of doubt that it's safer to be walking in Iraq than here.

Thumper · 03-28-2003, 01:12 PM

Actually HD, the deaths documented by the Pentagon in the Iraqi theater include all deaths too; for example, the deaths due to accidents and other causes. The comparison is fairly valid. I know it is shocking to look at a war in this statistical way, but it can be eye-opening.

The Fishing Geek · 03-28-2003, 01:16 PM

I'm sorry Thumper, but I cannot agree with you there. To think that it is safer to be in the war over in Iraq than it is to live in Portland is, at best, laughable. You cannot lump the natural deaths of the aged in with your statistics, as "natural causes" are hardly preventable.

If you would rather like to take accidental deaths and lump them with violent deaths and then look at the figures, then you might get a more realistic comparison, and even then I'm certain that you will find that it is, of course, much more dangerous in Iraq right now.

Hoosier Daddy · 03-28-2003, 01:38 PM

.....I doubt any of our "boys" in Iraq are dying of old age or advanced fatal illness.....

just a guess, I know.....

Once again, I don't entirely disagree with you, just pointing out that it's probably not a real strong comparison to make....

Snapset · 03-28-2003, 04:39 PM

Thumper, you wrote a great letter and I agree with you 99.6% I think that the death rate for the general population is about 1 death for 22,000 people each day.To get an accurate comparison, you need to sample the population of males between the ages of 18 to 40. I suspect this death rate is more like 1 to 200,000, more or less. I am no actuary and this is morbid, but so is war. One other thing. we should take into account the value of non-combatant casualties regardless on nationality. If we get out of this war with 100 American deaths, 50 British deaths, and 100,000 Iraqi deaths, that still adds up to 100,150 deaths. This brings up the Hiroshima argument, that it is more efficient to kill a bunch fast so the battle is over quickly. (Shock and Awe). I have faith that our leaders are trying to get this over in a way that kills the fewest people but faith is all I have.

[ 03-28-2003, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: Snapset ]

mirage · 03-28-2003, 06:29 PM

as said the old west, died of a rapid case of lead posion. I "ll take a week in any big city in america including baltimore (worstin us in murder) than spend one night in Baghdad next week.

03-28-2003, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thumper:

Portland, Oregon has a population of 480,000 people and abut 30 deaths a day (34 obituaries in this morning's paper, for example). That is a death rate of 1 per 14,000 people per day. The coalition has about 300,000 people in the Iraqi theater of operations. About 3-5 of those people die each day prosecuting this war, for a death rate of about 1 per 75,000 per day, or one-fifth the death rate of the city of Portland. It is actually far safer to be a coalition combatant in this war than to live your daily life in any American city.

I'm sure these stats would not be much of a comfort to those families that will be receiving their son home in a flag covered casket Jack. While you are right that the losses are minimal in comparison it's still sobering to see those body bags.
All I'm saying is let's hope this progress continues and this war is a short one. Even though the casualties are light let's not trivialize them.

The Fishing Geek · 03-28-2003, 11:19 PM

Not to throw doubt into Thumper's numbers, but is there really an obituary written for every single person that dies? I don't believe so. Also, how many of those people in the obit section were between the ages of 18-40?

Thumper · 03-28-2003, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Fishing Geek:
Not to throw doubt into Thumper's numbers, but is there really an obituary written for every single person that dies?

Probably not. But that would just reinforce my analogy, wouldn't it?

The point is that you are likely safer carrying an M-16 in Iraq than you are walking the streets of Portland. I am not minimizing the risks, just trying to place them in perspective. There is every reason to be pleased with the conduct of this war. The good guys are indeed winning handily, and the world that our children and grandchildren live in will be the better for it.

Sea Nymph · 03-30-2003, 07:50 AM

due to saddams oppression and brutality, i would guess there is a lot more so called "natural caused" deaths in iraq than in the states.

in order to be healthy you need a few of the basics.

-available modern medical care
-proper nutrition
-adequate shelter
-chemical and biological weapons free attmosphere
-no torture
-a sometimes stress free attmosphere. (no family members getting be-headed and/or ***** in your kitchen)
-clean water
-money

[ 03-30-2003, 08:58 AM: Message edited by: Sea Nymph ]

1pump · 03-30-2003, 08:15 AM

The lack of "the basics" was caused by UN sanctions which the US was instrumental in imposing, which is one reason why the locals haven't been throwing out the welcome mat.
On the other hand, Iraq could be an extremely wealthy country if Saddam and his family hadn't ***** the economy for their own gain and led the people into war after war.
I don't know how much money that miscreant has, but he has to be one of the wealthiest people in the world.

Straydog · 03-30-2003, 08:46 AM

Thumper,

You give a lot of credibilty to the old saying about "lies, damn lies and statistics."

Before you start the over simplified process of comparing numbers, let us realize that the Americans dying in Iraq are some of the most physically fit Americans alive. Then realize they are pretty well protected from crime, hunger, disease and other elements in play in the demographics of death in the city of Portland.

Further, let us remember that most are there due to the glitzy recuiting tactics of the American military/industrial complex. Have you visited the recruiting offices of any branch of the service lately? Did you see posters mangled GI's coming home from war less than whole? Did you see posters warning of post combat syndrome? Did you see posters explaining the results of chemical warfare? Did you see posters of heart broken parents, siblings, wives and kids because someone wasn't coming home?

I get sick when I read or hear people say these kids knew what they were getting into when they joined. I submit no one truley knows what they are getting into in time of war until they are actually in to it. I further submit that the military does little to really allow a kid to know what he is getting into if we got to war.

So, now we have Thumper trying to make comparisons to the deaths of regular citizens in Portland to the deaths of some of the most physically fit, well fed and protected from street crime people in the world that were drawn into a conflict with posters and talk of highly sucessful military personnell doing things that have virtually nothing to do with going to the desert to dodge enemy fire.... And we are supposed to feel comfort from this?

duckcall · 03-30-2003, 09:51 AM

We are at war. Get you flag out.

Born to be Wild · 03-30-2003, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Further, let us remember that most are there due to the glitzy recuiting tactics of the American military/industrial complex. Have you visited the recruiting offices of any branch of the service lately? Did you see posters mangled GI's coming home from war less than whole? Did you see posters warning of post combat syndrome? Did you see posters explaining the results of chemical warfare? Did you see posters of heart broken parents, siblings, wives and kids because someone wasn't coming home?

I get sick when I read or hear people say these kids knew what they were getting into when they joined. I submit no one truley knows what they are getting into in time of war until they are actually in to it. I further submit that the military does little to really allow a kid to know what he is getting into if we got to war.

Oh come on Straydogie, I have been aware of all those things you mentioned in your first paragraph since growing up as a kid starting with Vietnam and including Somalia and Gulf War I. So have our soldiers. They know and they knew! All the interviews of our soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq express there will to free the oppressed and get rid of the Saddam�s and make the world a safer place. I don't see the soldiers protesting the war and doubt very many of there proud family members are out protesting it neither. Fortunately yours and others anti-war rhetoric is in the minority and doesn't govern our country.

You will see after this war is over how wrong you were. Thumpers analogy was a good one even though the numbers don't add up for reasons given above. Another analogy would be the numbers of American soldiers that died in training here in the states and elsewhere prior to the war starting. (i.e. helicopter & plane crashes, vehicle accidents, etc). Those soldiers came home in flag draped caskets also. So, do we get rid of the American military because it is a dangerous occupation? Might be interesting to see if recruiting has come to a standstill now that the war and media pic's are coming back. I doubt it!

Quote:

I get sick when I read or hear people say these kids knew what they were getting into when they joined.

These young and older adults did know what they were getting into. They don't train to shoot M-16's, missiles, tanks and artillery, etc for the sake of playing war games.

Get reel!

Here's agood one for you to read Straydog:
Click here: SI.com - Sports Illustrated -- The Magazine - From Sports Illustrated: Son of Saddam - Monday March 24, 2003 05:00
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_...son_of_saddam/

[ 03-30-2003, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: DepoeBayDan ]

Straydog · 03-30-2003, 01:32 PM

DBD,

Once again you make broadbrushed statements that are simply untrue.

Also, you simply don't get it. Anyone with a TV can say they are aware of the down side of war, just as you can say you know how one feels when they lose a loved one. But until you have actually experienced it you simply do not. To compare the real thing to training and games is laughable were it not so serious.

Further, do you really, really think "all of those interviewed" are a true objective cross section of people over there or might there be just a hint of screening to make sure the dissentors arent heard? How about the kid that freaked and threw a grenade into his own guys sleeping quarters? Don't think he might have been a bit overwhelmed by fear and the reality of war?

Also,what about the Vets that have lived war beyond the news reels and Rambo movies, why might they be speaking out against war? And, I am very close to people that are speaking out against the war while supporting our troops. Why? Because they have kids there. You are wrong, wrong, wrong when you say all enlisted people and their parents support this war.

I first started thinking about this when I read the words of one of our local kids after his first live fire fight.... he said, in effect, that being home taking care of his family was now more important than defending his country. He said his training never came close to preparing him for the reality of war and he said he wishes he had never enlisted.

And once again, I ask that you try refuting with some facts. What do you see when you visit a recruiting office? What do you see when you read or hear recruiting advertisements?

Let me remind you I have a little closer contact with some of this stuff than you. My daughter graduated from High School two years ago and I saw first hand the recruiting techniques used. Please don't try to tell me they recruit with facts about the hardship of war. They do not.

I have offered facts that you choose to call rhetoric. You debate with rhetoric and opinion. You must do better than that if to be taken seriously.

Tell me your experience with recuiters. Tell me how you know all these kids really know the true hardship of war. Tell me of personal experience you have lived that makes my statements untrue.

I could care less about reading Sports Illustrated articles. I can find all the articles you could ever read to back both sides of the war debate. I am asking for real, true personal experiences and thought. I think it was you that once repremanded others for repeating the rhetoric of others.
Come on Dan, put your time and effort where your mouth is. Go visit a recruiting office. Talk to kids that have been actively recruited. Pay attention to military recruitment advertising and then, with a straight face, tell me these kids know what they are getting into..

Oh, by the way, remember that many or most of these kids are at an age where we say they can't make responsible choices about drinking beer but you say they know what they are getting into by going into the military? Please offer any sense of logic to that fact.

[ 03-30-2003, 02:56 PM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

Born to be Wild · 03-30-2003, 02:01 PM

Straydog,

I have first hand experience with recruiters. I once enlisted many years ago and dealt with the recruiters and knew there was some truth in the Goldie Hawn movie (long time - can't remember the name). However I knew what I was getting into before I enlisted and afterwards as I went through gas test with a gas mask in boot camp. Maybe these adults aren't allowed to be of drinking age in most states, but they are legally of age to be considered an adult. I don't know that the military allows kids to enlist?

Quote:

I first started thinking about this when I read the words of one of our local kids after his first live fire fight.... he said, in effect, that being home taking care of his family was now more important than defending his country. He said his training never came close to preparing him for the reality of war and he said he wishes he had never inlisted.

This soldiers opinion is different than the ones I have seen interviewed without the possible exception of being prepared for the reality of war. I saw where one of our soldiers that was a prisoner of the Gulf War I is back over there fighting for our country once again. Do you suppose the recruiters got to him again after he was a tortured soldier the first time around? I wished you would not refer to them as kids. We are not recruiting 12 year olds. Young adults or soldiers might be more appropiate. At what age do you quit calling them kids and start considering them adults? I see plenty interviews on TV with soldiers that resemble adults.

Dan

[ 03-30-2003, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: DepoeBayDan ]

Straydog · 03-30-2003, 02:26 PM

DBD,

Unlike you, I try to avoid broadbrushed generalities. That is why I didn't say "all" of the people interviewed or all of the people that enlist.

According to the military website I just visited, you can enlist at age 17. Sorry, but yes, I still call that a kid.

In fact, there are some instances of people that are still kid like in their mental state at age 40. Once again, there is no "all or nothing" number where by we start calling kids adults. However, I think I am pretty safe in saying 'most' would agree that 17 and 18 is still considered a kid.

Here is something I just found on a military recruitment web site. Silly me, I would have thought little things like wars and getting killed might be considered negatives. Not to our recruiters it would seem. Little things like new places, new people and new lifestyle rank right up there with taking a 50 cal. bullet, now don't they???

" . Military Life

Are there any negatives with life in the military?

New places, new people and a new lifestyle make the first term of enlistment more challenging. Married enlisted personnel if they are a long way from family or if there are financial issues at home can find it hard to adjust. However, there are many family support programs on base to assist. In addition, the non-member in a marriage can find it stressful when the military unit deploys the spouse to an overseas area. Again, deployment counseling is available on base, as well as the support of other families in the same position."

Here is the whole site if you want to see more. I just skimmed it but didn't see a word about killing, being killed, being maimed or being mentally screwed up for life. I am sure it there in the small print somewhere, though.

Today's military recruitng site

One last point, life is full of people that resemble adults but do not think or behave as such, so what is your point? :whazzup:

[ 03-30-2003, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

GutshotApe · 03-30-2003, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Straydog:
How about the kid that freaked and threw a grenade into his own guys sleeping quarters? Don't think he might have been a bit overwhelmed by fear and the reality of war?

Do you mean Sergeant Akbar, the black muslim who rolled three grenades into his officer's tents and then shot down the survivors as they ran out? Kid? Overwhelmed by fear? Reality of war?
How about obvious security risk...the question is why was he there in the first place?... :whazzup:

Straydog · 03-30-2003, 03:48 PM

GSA,

True enough, you point out the underlying question very well.

One still has to ask though, did the kid fully understand what he was getting into and if he had, would it had changed things? One also has to wonder how many others slipped through the cracks.

Surely no one can argue against the marketing the Military does.

I am not saying that is wrong and I understand and appreciate the many positive things the military can and has done for many people.

All I am saying is I think there are a significant number of kids that are over there today that had no clue what they were getting into when they enlisted or felt the possiblity of war was much more remote than it turned out to be.

No, they were not drafted as some of our peers were, but they were certainly sold a program and a future and I wonder how much if any they were told about the realities of war and actually killing people and being killed.

By the way, as always, please remember I very much support these people and what they are doing for us. I just wish I could be convinced it is all for the right reasons that they are making the sacrifice that they are.

Born to be Wild · 03-30-2003, 04:28 PM

1Pump,

Quote:

Now they're spouting defeatism because it's been a little over a week and they're not running around in downtown Baghdad interviewing adoring Iraqis.
And they have the audacity to complain about Al-Jazeera.

The media I listen to are not spouting defeatism and I don't think it is fair to make comparisons between them and Al-Jazeera. They make mistakes like we all do. Al-Jazeera is totally biased, slanted and anti-American. They promote propaganda by Osama, Saddam and others. As far as I am concerned, Peter Arnett can go to work for Al-Jazeera after the conflict is over. I doubt he will have a job here in the states.

Born to be Wild · 03-30-2003, 05:15 PM

Quote:

All I am saying is I think there are a significant number of kids that are over there today that had no clue what they were getting into when they enlisted or felt the possiblity of war was much more remote than it turned out to be.

Straydog,
Did you ever hear of or see the movie "Blackhawk Down"? The military is not a free ride. I believe most enlisted are aware of the very dangerous world we live in today and realize they can be called upon at any time. I don't see a lot of military deserters or protesters. As I said, I have seen the opposite. I see there own families backing them, with concern of course. Do us all a favor and check into it and see if the recruitment of US military has radically slowed down or come to a halt once this war or threat of, started. Would be interesting to know!

Quote:

By the way, as always, please remember I very much support these people and what they are doing for us. I just wish I could be convinced it is all for the right reasons that they are making the sacrifice that they are.

I think you will be convinced when this is all said and done. Did you read the SI article? One of the many, many reasons to rid the world of this mass murdering regime.

Quote:

How about the kid that freaked and threw a grenade into his own guys sleeping quarters? Don't think he might have been a bit overwhelmed by fear and the reality of war?

Also, this was not a kid. He is a murderer and should be hanged! No, I don't think he was overwhelmed with fear, possibly a radical religious belief and rejection to go join his fellow soldiers for obvious reasons. After his actions, it might have been a great decision to hold him back. He might have caused more fatallity if he had been allowed to participate in the actual fighting. Besides, he wasn't in the reality of war. He was in a protected military base in Kuwait.

Support the troops and the cause and time will tell if we did the right thing.

Dan

1pump · 03-30-2003, 07:22 PM

Depoe Dan, I'm referring to CNN, Fox, MSNBC and the print media.
I don't remember the guy's name on Fox the other night, but in his commentary he stated that "news, by it's very nature, focuses on the negative." That was about the only reasonable thing I've heard from any of the bubbleheads on TV lately. The military hits what amounts to a speed bump during its campaign and the media fills the airwaves the tales of disaster and woe, and starts second-guessing the Pentagon on a full time basis.
I'm no fan of Sec Rumsfeld, but at a Pentagon press conference the other day some dweeb reporter practically accused the Pentagon of under-reporting US casualties. To his credit, Rumsfeld didn't jump off the podium and drop-kick that guy, as I would have. You could hear the exasperation in his voice as he told the reporter he was a dumb s--- for even asking that question.

I really enjoy Sec Rumsfeld's press briefings simply because he gets so mad after about 3 minutes of redundant questions. Problem is, I wind up getting mad right along with him. [img]graemlins/eek13.gif[/img]

Joe Schwab · 03-30-2003, 08:27 PM

Straydog, I was a recruiter in 1968 and 1969 for the Air Force but worked closely with the Marines, Navy and Army. The caliber of people coming in our offices to enlist even in those times was impressive to say the least and they were NOT LIED TO ABOUT ANYTHING. Of course any recruiter worth his salt is going to sell the positive side of the military. But don't think for one minute that we didn't sit down with these men and women and explain the facts to them. I would not have traded ny 8 years in the military for anything and I went in with my eyes wide open. I took my chances and won. Many did not and I salute them and think of them often.

I met some of the finest career enlisted men while stationed on Okinawa during the height of Vietnam. These people willingly and knowingly left their familes and returned time after time to the jungles to do what they were trained to do. They were the Rangers and Special Forces who lived and trained with the Vietnamese. We still have these forces today and they will be the ones carrying the U.S. out of this war.

Never sell these people short. They may not be on the front page but believe it, they are there.

They are not afraid to do their job, just as policemen and firemen are not afraid to do theirs. They do it with the knowledge they have the best training there is. Plenty of jobs carry risks the average person out there is not willing to take. That's fine, just don't get in the way of those who do the job, give them your support, and try not to be a Monday morning QB.

The world is a dangerous place with all kinds of hazards and no one gets out of this life alive. We are just beginning to see what evil really exists there in Iraq and if anyone thinks it is just because we attacked, heads are in the sand.

Yes it is hard to see young people coming home in body bags. It is also hard to see fellow police and firemen going into buildings they know they may not come out of alive. But they do it without hesitation because they have a sense of duty. Thank the military for training and instilling this sense into these warriors. I for one do not want to live in a world ruled by the likes of Sadaam. I don't believe I'm in the minority on this one.

wannacatchem · 03-30-2003, 11:34 PM

My comments are so far down the thread they probably don't matter.

I'm a 20 yr vet of the USAF, retired in Nov 2000.

Spent the Gulf War on Okinawa, volunteer'd to go, but my CC wouldn't let me as I had a 12 day old baby. Spent the war making sure the 9 air refuleing tankers we sent there were in peferct shape before deployment. I'm cool with that, my buddies that went didn't have any fun.

Don't want to see any of my (your)boys over there now. My daughter (17) has a friend there that is in the war. He has sent two letters, and she write's back, faithfully. Don't get me wrong, the Commander in Chief says we got a job to do, we do it. We Soldiers, Airmen, Sailors and Marines follow orders, but it ain't cool to see men/women die. Sadaam must be brought down, then North Korea, but at what price? We are the greatest power on the planet, can we meet our own expectations? At what price to our youth? To our country? I support President Bush, our troops, but I grieve at what is happening. I only hope that we can live with death and destruction we wrought upon the enemy and ourselves. I truly hope by this action we can secure our security, but I doubt it

[ 03-31-2003, 07:07 AM: Message edited by: The Fishing Geek ]

Born to be Wild · 03-31-2003, 05:51 AM

Know what you mean 1Pump! Pretty funny post.

AuntyM · 03-31-2003, 08:48 AM

Straydog,

Both Piscatorial Pursuits and Steelheader.net have many members from the Navy bases, Ft. Lewis and McChord AFB. Only one has spoken out against this war. The overwhelming majority wants to take care of Saddam's regime once and for all. I was surprised by the strong reactions for the war myself. I doubt these fine men have death wishes. I am certain none of them are innocent "kids" who have been mislead by recruiters.

In addition, my husbands coworkers, who are all prior military, mostly retired, think this war is necessary. As does my husband. Most of them were veterans of Desert Shield/Storm, as well as other actions. All of our friends still on active duty are in favor of this war as well.

As far as recruiting young people are concerned, I don't care what you tell them, most young men don't think that getting badly injured or killed will never happen to them.

These days, if someone enlists, and feels they have been "dupped" by recruiters, it isn't difficult for them to get discharged. If the idea of war and killing or being killed doesn't suit them, they can and often do get out before their enlistments are up.

It just so happens that life in the military may be hard at times, but many feel the benefits outwiegh the risks. I was a Navy wife for 20+ years, so I do have some first hand knowledge.

For the serviceman that got hurt and sent home that no longer wants to be in the Army, he had 12 years active duty. Obviously, he feels it is no longer worth the risk. Do you expect every single one of them to want to go back to combat after being injured in action? Isn't it enough that many do?

I was undecided about the war for months. I do not trust the "oil barrons" However, I also think this regime has WMD. (hubby says they had to carry gas masks and 3 antidotes on their person at all times during Desert Storm also.) I believe Saddam will use WMD, or give them to terrorists. This isn't propaganda, it's an established fact.

Let us rid the world of Saddam and his sons once and for all.

Straydog · 03-31-2003, 08:59 AM

Aunty,

Ok.

As I have said, we can both find many people on both sides of the war argument to support our opinions.

Only time, the opinion of those that make it home alive and the eventual outcome will really tell us if this is the right thing to be doing or not.

AuntyM · 03-31-2003, 10:41 AM

Straydog,

Quantifying later will somehow make one opinion less and the other more valid? It won't. I wanted to give the other side. Your points still have as much validity and reality as mine. War sucks.

I could tell you about the agony and emotional torture families go through at a time like this. My husband always said he thought it was harder for me than for him.

Straydog · 03-31-2003, 04:55 PM

Aunty,

You're right, after the fact won't change the validity of one's opinion today.

It will though, hopefully help me and maybe others get a grip on whether or not this was the right thing to do although that too will change little after the fact.

I can only imagine what your husband and you had to go through. I am glad you are both around to talk about it, too!

[ 03-31-2003, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: Straydog ]