This hurts my ulcer. WAR is ugly.

Jennie@ifish · 03-21-2003, 09:24 AM

I am really afraid and sickened by what I just saw on television.
Make is stop.

Jen

[ 03-21-2003, 10:24 AM: Message edited by: Jennie@ifish ]

Cool Texan · 03-21-2003, 09:25 AM

I'm trapped in my 10x8 cell....what happened?!?

Jennie@ifish · 03-21-2003, 09:28 AM

Huge, terrible explosions on several cities that made me panic.

The beginning of "shock and awe".

I have never witnessed anything like it in my life, and I don't ever want to again.

Jen

Jennie@ifish · 03-21-2003, 09:29 AM

...and it made me cry.

Call me a wimp. I value human life of all kinds.

It better have been more strategic than it looked.

[ 03-21-2003, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: Jennie@ifish ]

The Fishing Geek · 03-21-2003, 09:35 AM

I'm home today, and I just caught some footage on CBS. Horrible.

Cool Texan · 03-21-2003, 09:43 AM

I havent seen any of it...but yeah, this sucks. Sadly, the expression "paybacks are a beotch" comes to mind...and sadly, ALL Americans will be lumped together on this one. :depressed:

I really do hope we are only hitting military targets. I havent heard any reports about Iraqi civilians or civilian buildings, which is good....but it might just be because everyone is pinned down.

And lucky me, I get to travel cross country next week. [img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img]

AuntyM · 03-21-2003, 09:58 AM

There is no possible way for all innocent civilians to get out of harms way. :depressed:

This attack is horrible, and I am very sad.

Cool Texan · 03-21-2003, 09:59 AM

Just watched the streaming video on CBS. My heart sank. It SOUNDS like we are hitting military and leadership positions...still no reports of civilian deaths/destruction. Still...those images are distubing. :depressed:

The "good" news is that supposedly key senior leaders in Iraq are supposedly in surrender discussions.

03-21-2003, 10:04 AM

One of the most incredible and scary things I have ever seen. Reminded me of the opening scene from the movie "Apocalypse Now". Only thing is this is real!

Fast Water · 03-21-2003, 10:13 AM

No messing around this time.

Hit it and hit it hard and don't stop until the objectives are met.

Make it quick and percise as possible. Back up our words and prove to the Iraqi people (and the rest of the world)that freedom from tyranny is close at hand.

Support our troops and freedom loving people everywhere.

:smile:

GutZ · 03-21-2003, 10:36 AM

Jenny -
It will be over soon and the World will be a better safer place. If you find the images so disturbing, don't watch. You are very fortunate to be where you are. Take a walk down to the River. Listen to the birds and watch Kilchis chase the Dippers.

Ex-military · 03-21-2003, 10:37 AM

Saw the live feeds from the TV in our office...looks like the TLAMS and CALCMS were right on target. It does look horrible and awesome, but they are doing exactly what was designed and intended....the apparent targets and avenue of approach seem to be deliberately avaoiding civilian housing areas. Most of the Presidential, SSO, IIS, SRG, and RG facilities being hit are off-limits to civilians anyway so there shouldn't be many casualties not associated with the military or leadership. As you may have noticed, the lights and phones are still on which means we have stayed away from targetting infrastructure facilities, which are normally located in higher population areas, thereby limitung collateral damage and civilian casualties...

24 on/ 48 off · 03-21-2003, 10:41 AM

Protesters

Men in Black

Men in Black II

--spud-- :smile:

Lured In · 03-21-2003, 10:55 AM

Folks..try to keep in mind what is going on.

We are not "randomly" bombing buildings. The lights of Baghdad are still on.

Sec. Rumsfeld, stated in his press conference..."when considering the 'humanitarian' aspect of this attack, each target was analyzed and then the most appropriate weapon, direction of attack and time of attack were considered in order to minimize civilian casualties." (paraphrased).

It is amazing to me that we are going to such a great length to make this as minimally brutal on the people of Iraq as possible. We certainly don't have to, but I believe it shows a tremendous level of discipline and respect for what we are doing.

Also, keep in mind, it didn't have to be this way. Sec. Rumsfeld also said..."Saddam had a choice. Lose his WMD or lose his power. He chose unwisely and now he will lose both." (paraphrased). Saddam is responsible for the position his country is in, the coalition is responsible for getting it out of that position.

And please don't forget that our troops are in the middle of this. They are there fighting for Freedom, our country, our families and even for you and me. While I wouldn't describe my feelings as "sickened" (nothing wrong with the way you feel

), but I am certainly humbled by the commitment and sacrifice our troops are making for us. [img]graemlins/hearton.gif[/img]

The Fishing Geek · 03-21-2003, 12:54 PM

Lured In:

Trust me, no one here forgets that we have American (and other) troops in the region fighting hard. Already we are down at least 6 US soldiers, and that makes me sad. I hope and pray that innocent Iraqi civilians have not added to the death toll.

Lured In · 03-21-2003, 01:03 PM

Geek...yes, I believe most of us are aware of what our troops are doing. I was only trying to offer some encouraging words. I honestly believe things could be a lot worse, and am thankful that they are not. (yet).

Jennie@ifish · 03-21-2003, 01:07 PM

I stick by "sickened".

No matter who is at fault, no matter who is right or wrong, no matter how evil, no matter how much better things might be later, people are dying at the hands of other people.

I have tremendous respect and admiration for our troops, at the same time.

But, I am very sickened by the loss of life.

Jen

[ 03-21-2003, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: Jennie@ifish ]

Lured In · 03-21-2003, 01:21 PM

Jennie, as I said above, I hope you understand I wasn't picking on you. I guess my "encouraging words" effort needs some work. [img]graemlins/1zhelp.gif[/img]

Jennie@ifish · 03-21-2003, 01:59 PM

No, not at all offended. I took it to thought.

I do really admire what our men and women are doing, but I am still sickened.

I applaud your efforts at cheering, and it did help a little. :smile:

Cool Texan · 03-21-2003, 02:12 PM

If they find the WMD, I can appreciate what is happening.

If nothing turns up...I feel we will regret this action at some point. All in all, it just makes me sad.

GutshotApe · 03-21-2003, 02:16 PM

All I can offer is the caution not to let your imagination make it seem worse than it really is. The city power is still on, streetlights running, etc. The targets were military and not residential areas.

I was struck by the basic truth in this statement that I read in today's Oregonian:

"America is the only country in the world that exports freedom. It brought freedom and democracy to Japan and Germany after defeating both in World War II. It rebuilt their societies and taught them about liberty. It helped bring down the Berlin Wall. That's why we wholeheartedly support the American-led effort to free the people of Iraq."

Fatos Nano
Albanian Prime Minister

Cool Texan · 03-21-2003, 02:29 PM

I agree....but those were different situations I would argue. Unless....the WMD are uncovered.

Thumper · 03-21-2003, 02:54 PM

Well, 6 scuds fired at Kuwait is a pretty good start. Hans Blix commented yesterday that "Oh my, if he is launching scuds that is very bad. They are not supposed to have those." Duh!

Cool Texan · 03-21-2003, 03:05 PM

I hadnt heard confirmation of them being actual Scuds, but that it was the assumed missle. Yeah, those are a good start. I want to see the serious stuff come out.

If you watch the CBS streaming video, it scrolls on the bottom saying that some facility housing WMD was found. But there is nothing supporting it.

skein · 03-21-2003, 03:16 PM

WMD or not, the Iraqi people will be better off when this is over.

I've written and rewritten this post several times, and it comes out "preachy." So I'll just stop there and say again, "the Iraqi people will be better off when this is over."

Skein

Jennie@ifish · 03-21-2003, 03:24 PM

Never mind... I didn't say a thing....

(Where is the icon of a guy whistling dixie, innocently?)

Jen

[ 03-21-2003, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: Jennie@ifish ]

Lured In · 03-21-2003, 03:33 PM

Good job being a "self-moderator" Jennie.

:grin:

Salmonator · 03-21-2003, 03:34 PM

Jen, Saddam Hussein's "every day business as usual" is worse then what we're doing right now.

[ 03-21-2003, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: Salmonator ]

STGRule · 03-21-2003, 03:47 PM

Jen, you don't have to have an ulcer to have a stomach ache. Mine hurts enough to throw up.
GSA: If that was happening in Wa. DC would you still say it isn't bad as it looks?
I want this over as soon as possible with the least amount of bloodshed and destruction. "Liberating" the people is fine, but something has to be left for them to live in and have commerce from. God speed to our troops and lets send the big wigs over to "settle" things. Bet it would be over a whole lot sooner with their tails on the line. :whazzup:

[ 03-21-2003, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: STGRule ]

GutshotApe · 03-21-2003, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by STGRule:
GSA: If that was happening in Wa. DC would you still say it isn't bad as it looks?

Well, if Saddam Hussein was bombing us he'd be aiming for the most densly populated areas. We are trying to avoid civilian casualties....and while it is probably impossible to invade a country and defeat their army without some civilians getting caught in the crossfire, I bet we are going to see far fewer civilian dead & wounded than the critics are predicting.

I watched the same video as you did, probably, and heard the on-scene commentator say something to the effect "It looks like half of Baghdad is on fire"...then he added something to effect of "I could be exaggerating, but that's what it looks like from here"....

At night, things look much worse than they do in broad daylight. I've gone out on quite a few forest fires, arriving after dark...and it looks terrible....but the next morning, invariably, we would see things weren't nearly as bad as we'd thought. Same thing occurs in the daytime....most people grossly overestimate the size of forest fires....when the smoke is really boiling up and the flames are roaring, a 3-acre fire looks like 30.

Fires in Baghdad resulting from gps-guided bomb blasts are probably confined to the immediate area....

I'll bet there will be more civilian casualties caused by Iraqi anti-aircraft artillery rounds falling back into the city than by direct US action.

feisty's wife · 03-22-2003, 03:09 AM

S Soooooo.... after we are done with Iraq, are we going to go after Iran, N. Korea, China, all the other Govs we do not like, or think they are repressive? Who made us the copsof the world? Ready for YOUR taxes to go up? Senate just cut our "tax breaks" by 10 billion over the next ten years....ready for more terrorism to happen here? We have stirred up a hornets nest, and we wonder why the Arab world hates us. DUH

Straydog · 03-22-2003, 06:44 AM

I heard on the radio yesterday that the artilery first reported to be scuds were not.

As one general said, the first reports coming off of the battle field are usually wrong.

Further, we will never know how many innocent people were killed when this is over. Our government will see to it we don't.

Yes, those Iraqi's that survive may be better off when it is all over.

I very much support our troops and admire them for the job they are doing. Let us hope they all come home safe and the world does indeed prove to be a kinder, gentler place.

Joe Schwab · 03-22-2003, 07:01 AM

It's kind of difficult to get rid of a hornets nest without stirring it up Duh! They said it would be shock and awe, it is. That's the idea. Peter Jennings was interviewing and Iraqi official last nite about civilian casualties. All this idiot could do was stammer about the tremendous explosions but could not confirm any civilian casualties. He kept saying he heard of walls in adjoining homes cracking.

I for one am proud of living in a nation that doesn't sit by while terrorists reign in their own countries. What gives us the right, you say? It's called responsibility. I get angry when I see the millions we have poured into Japan, Germany, France, even Russia after their failures and what do we get for it? Ungrateful people and our own citizens, most of whom have never worn a uniform sitting by wringing their hands about how terrible we are. Why do people want to come to the U.S. to live? Anarchists burning flags in the street with their faces covered and throwing acid on the walls and windows of the Trade center. They're cowards plain and simple.

Cost? Didn't GW say when all the nation was in awe after 9-11 that this was going to be long, hard and expensive? Of course that was long ago now and we should let it go and move on. Not!

Straydog · 03-22-2003, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Capt. Hook:
I get angry when I see the millions we have poured into Japan, Germany, France, even Russia after their failures and what do we get for it? Ungrateful people.........

We can soon add Afghanistan and Iraq to this list with more to come, I am sure.

Joe Schwab · 03-22-2003, 07:26 AM

So I guess that is why the Iraqi's are welcoming the troops with open arms and cheering as Sadaam's posters are being torn down? Huh?

The Taliban were so kind and gentle, it makes me sad they were tossed out. Help! I'm starting to become one of ------!

Just a question? Why do responses require that posting the words of the previous response? We can all read and have at least a 20 second memory. Not trying to start an argument.

Pete · 03-22-2003, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Capt. Hook:
Just a question? Why do responses require that posting the words of the previous response? We can all read and have at least a 20 second memory. Not trying to start an argument.

Good question! :grin:

Straydog · 03-22-2003, 08:06 AM

Capt. Hook,

Some indeed are glad we are there. If you haven't noticed, some are not. Those would be the ones shooting back.....

Also, I thought you were talking about people being grateful after the fact, not whether the Taliban needed to be ousted or not. I guess if I had quoted that part of your statement it would have been clearer to you what I was talking about.

I didn't know posting quotes was required. Where did you get that info?

It does though, make it a little easier to pinpoint one point of a post to refer to.

If you have been reading any of the Tillamook stuff on the other board, you might note that some get pretty confused........... even with the quotes.

However, again, no one requires it, in answer to your question.

[ 03-22-2003, 09:14 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

Jennie@ifish · 03-22-2003, 08:50 AM

You know, I heard one interview with a French woman.

She said that it wasn't that they were not appreciative of the US. She spoke of the thousands of Americans who had fought for them.
In fact, she said, The French love the United States, and for that reason, they do not wish us to do what we are doing. She stated that they care about us.

I can hear it coming now, :shocked: but that is what I heard...

Some people may think I am a peace nick. I am, and I think you all are, also, no matter how far you lean to the right, or whatever they call it.

I don't think any of us like killing, do we?

I don't know enough about the whole political thing to have an educated opinion that counts for anything.

All I am saying, is that I don't like to see buildings blown up, and people dead. Maybe it's just that I don't like it live and in color. I don't want to see other people's dirty laundry on TV.

I hope it's not my own personal problem. :smile:

Jen

The Fishing Geek · 03-22-2003, 09:26 AM

I only kill the hatchery ones. Even then, sometimes I have this tinge of guilt with thoughts of that fish making it through the hazards of downstream navigation, through 3-5 years of oceanic dangers, only to fall prey to me. I'd feel worse if they didn't taste so good.

Guess I was too obscure there. Should have made more of a reference to Jennie's comment about nobody likes to kill.

[ 03-22-2003, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: The Fishing Geek ]

Straydog · 03-22-2003, 09:48 AM

Jen,

Having compassion is certainly not a "personal problem" in my view.

Unfortunately, if it were not on TV, it would still be dirty laundry and even more unfortunate is the fact that it is indeed ours too, not just other people's.
:depressed:

[ 03-22-2003, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

Jennie@ifish · 03-22-2003, 12:51 PM

Eh hem... All I am saying, is that no one in their right mind (except for Saddams son and his execution chamber, etc...) likes to see death in any form.

It seems like some people on here just want to fight, and I don't, so... carry on without me.

I'll go back to watching the Jetsons. :smile:

Jen

Boedy · 03-22-2003, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jennie@ifish:
All I am saying, is that I don't like to see buildings blown up, and people dead. Maybe it's just that I don't like it live and in color. I don't want to see other people's dirty laundry on TV.

Like 9-11 ?

GutshotApe · 03-22-2003, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Straydog:
Unfortunately, if it were not on TV, it would still be dirty laundry and even more unfortunate is the fact that it is indeed ours too, not just other people's.

Dirty laundry? Ours?

What are you saying? :whazzup:

Straydog · 03-22-2003, 11:55 PM

I am saying, as I think Jen was, that war is dirty laundry, we are in the middle of it and since we are a united nation, it is ours as well as theirs.

Joe Schwab · 03-23-2003, 06:21 AM

It would be nice if TV were the medium to bring us out of this but the fact remains that they control what they want their people to see and to an extent we do the same.

Reporters are notoriously biased about what they show and report and will purposely cut facts out that do not support their version of the story.

We will undoubtedly see for the first time on TV what soldiers and marines have been up against. Movies just don't do justice to the true picture of war. War is hell; so is terrorism, tyranny, hunger, religious persecution, genocide, racism, and any other form of hatred and violence you can think of.

Eliminate all of those other diseases and maybe war can be next. We did not start this war. It has been going since Sadaam refused to abide by the terms of his last surrender. And people have continued to die.

Where was the protest? Why do protestors only show up when laws are being enforced be they local or international laws?

When Clinton went into Bosnia, and rightly so, he was asked why he did not seek UN approval. His reply was to the effect " Why? Russia would have vetoed it anyway." He got the job done and the world is a better place for it.

crabbait · 03-23-2003, 01:10 PM

Point of fact, Capt., we did start this war. Saddam provided the impetus, we chose the response.

Now we live with it.

Jennie@ifish · 03-23-2003, 04:18 PM

I just got an e mail that accused me of talking bad about our President.

Have I done that somewhere? Can someone document this?

"Jennie,

I am a little upset about the statements you are making toward the war and our President."

I don't like war, and I do have concerns whether this war is a good idea, but I certainly don't know that I ever said anything bad about our President.

Can someone help me out here?

Let's clear it up:

I don't like war.
I respect our Government officials.

I can only hope that we are doing the right thing.

I don't know the entire story, and none of us do. Without that knowledge, I don't think any of our opinions add up to much.

The only thing I know for a fact is that I believe, with all my heart, in God... and everything will work out for the best. :smile:

It's pretty simple, really, to think this way, and it saves me an awful lot of worry.
Jen

STGRule · 03-23-2003, 04:27 PM

Jennie: It doesn't matter what you say or how you say it, somebody will not like it. You stated that war made your ulcer hurt. War makes my stomach hurt too and I don't have the extra pain. I find it hard to believe that your reaction to death and mayhem has anything to do with the President. I know it doesn't have anything too with my discomfort. Compassion comes from your heart, not your head, so it can't be politically motivated.

Jennie@ifish · 03-23-2003, 04:31 PM

The rest of the letter went on to describe what an evil man Saddam is, and how people are treated in Iraq.

Like, duh... ?

OHHHHH Silly me!! I thought he was one of the good guys!

Geemany Christmas Trees.

Jen

Born to be Wild · 03-23-2003, 10:51 PM

I got a solution. Leave Saddam alone, let him build some nukes and ballistic missles and then launch them at us. Then we need not worry about it anymore.

Don't know if you watched the news today, but it looks as though we found one of his chem labs already (that he doesn't have) and it has only just begun.

Jennie, be fore warned. If you don�t like what you are seeing now, best not watch the news after Iraq is liberated. You�re tummy sure won�t like all the atrocity�s that will come out then when Iraqi�s are able to talk about Saddam, his son�s and the terrible regime that used to rule there.

Dan

Born to be Wild · 03-23-2003, 11:20 PM

Posted on the "history repeats itself thread".
You don't want to go to this website Jennie unless you have a box or two of tissue.
http://www.kdp.pp.se/chemical.html
Just another one of the many reasons to rid the world of this tyrant.

Appears they missed him (Saddam). He is speaking live right now (12:15 am)and it looks like the real McCoy.

Bummer.

Born to be Wild · 03-23-2003, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Appears they missed him (Saddam). He is speaking live right now (12:15 am)and it looks like the real McCoy.

Bummer.

Well, maybe they did get him? He didn't really give specifics! The critics said imediately afterwards everything he said could have been pre-recorded. He sure didn't prove to me he's still alive by showing a newspaper or mentioning specifics like the chem lab discovered (denial of course), the four American prisoners, his son's getting nailed in the initial bunker bombing, etc.

So maybe, just maybe...

[ 03-24-2003, 01:00 AM: Message edited by: DepoeBayDan ]

Jennie@ifish · 03-24-2003, 04:22 AM

Depoe Bay Dan, you appear to be in a group that just doesn't get it.

Knock knock! HELLO?

I just don't like war! Period! I don't care who is right or who is wrong, but this whole thing is upsetting to me!!!

It's far too complicated to make blanket statements that appear to be fact, except for just that. I hate war! It may, or may not be the only way to handle it. That, is not my decision. But regardless, I just don't like it! It's terrible! War is hell!

What you are saying makes me think you think it's fun, just because you think it's founded!

Saddam is an evil man. I believe that with my entire heart, mind, and soul.

I didn't say anything good about Saddam, or anything bad about President Bush... I just don't like the killing and the uncertain conditions we are living in...

Can you just stop for a minute to understand that watching our soldiers die upsets me?

Shoot me for this, too, because it does upset me to see their soldiers die, and in fact, I am praying for both sides. Their soldiers are probably being forced to fight and die.

This is all I am saying on this topic, because I am up against a brick wall.

Jen

[ 03-24-2003, 05:39 AM: Message edited by: Jennie@ifish ]

GutshotApe · 03-24-2003, 06:48 AM

The thing that sets this war apart from previous wars is intantaneous TV communications right from the front...and the endless parade of talking heads offering their opinions as to what it all means.

Of course the deaths - on both sides - are terrible. And any deaths are too many. But, to put it in perspective:

In WWII, on average, approximately 183 US soldiers & sailors were killed EVERY DAY for about 4 years.

In the Korean war approximately 30 US soldiers & sailors were killed EVERY DAY for about 3 years.

In the Vietnam war approximately 16 US soldiers & sailors were killed EVERY DAY for about 10 years.

So, relatively speaking, the current war's casualties are light, thus far.

[ 03-24-2003, 07:49 AM: Message edited by: GutshotApe ]

The Fishing Geek · 03-24-2003, 06:52 AM

One death is too many, to the family of that dead soldier.

Worm-N-ator · 03-24-2003, 06:54 AM

These are wonderful words of wisdom by John Stuart Mill:

"War is an ugly thing, but not the
ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of a moral and
patriotic feeling which thinks that
nothing is worth war is much worse.
A man who has nothing for which he
is willing to fight-nothing he cares
about more than his own safety-is a
miserable creature who has no chance
of being free, unless made and kept
so by the exertions of better men than
himself."
I think those words directly apply to this nation right now. To those of you who have served in the armed forces, I would like to say "THANK YOU".

Smj · 03-24-2003, 07:08 AM

Hey GSA!...That's some of the best new I've heard in a long time, let's hope we can keep bushes war going long enough to get him elected to a second term (PUKE, COUGH, BARF, choke...).

Jennie, In my opinion "THAT" person that e-mailed you is a clod.

I support the troops, not bush.

Smj

Born to be Wild · 03-24-2003, 10:25 AM

Hello Jennie,

If this makes you feel any better Jennie, the International Red Cross announced this morning that there has only been 1 Iraqi civilian causality so far in the entire war. Sure that is a tragedy in itself, but pretty amazing and I felt really relieved when I heard this. Was kind of wondering all along why Iraqi TV wasn�t showing otherwise. Now compare that with how many Iraqi civilians Saddam and his butchers have killed.

I do feel sorry for the Iraqi military that is forced or misled to fight, but not for the one�s that know better and choose to fight. A comparison is the ones that took some of our guys prisoners and executed some of them. They are no different than terrorist to me and I don�t feel for them. Most of them know the consequences and some are giving up. Someone from Saddams regime did the right thing and let us know where Saddam and others were going to gather at the very beginning at the war and we might have taken him out. This had to be some body close to Saddam but realizes he needs to go. I can�t believe when there is speculation all over the world that Saddam was killed or injured, that Saddam didn�t refute that on his telecast last night. I think it was pre-recorded.

No, I don�t think this is a game, and it is bothersome to me. But I feel we needed to remove Saddam and this is the only way to do it. He had a choice and was encouraged by the world to disarm or leave. Even some of the Arab leaders tried to persuade him to leave and he didn�t. I consider all loss of life on all sides as Saddams responsibility.
I am very proud of our military and its highly precision high tech weapons that are saving lives while we are obtaining our goal at removing the tyrant and his regime.

I think this will go down in history as the Coalition doing the right thing as we did in Afghanistan by ousting the Taliban and there cohorts the Al Qaeda. Hang in there and it will be over soon. Hopefully Saddam or his ruthless regime doesn�t take out his some of his own civilians before it�s all over trying to place the blame on us.

Dan

Born to be Wild · 03-24-2003, 10:29 AM

Unfortunately Smj, there is a price to be paid for freedom. Ask the Kuwaiti's.