History repeats itself....

STGRule · 03-14-2003, 07:34 PM

Quote:

"Why, of course, the people don't want war," Goering shrugged. "Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship."

"There is one difference," I pointed out. "In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars."

"Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

Hermann Goering, **** Reichsmarshall and Luftwaffe-Chief
The Link

Stratocaster · 03-14-2003, 07:41 PM

Nice can of worms.

ultralight · 03-14-2003, 07:51 PM

history foretold :depressed:

Silver Hilton · 03-14-2003, 08:09 PM

Yup.

Doesn't mean I don't think Saddam is a baddie and should be taken out, but the point about the common people is dead on. The people of america have been manipulated into supporting this war, as is shown by recent polls showing that over 80% of the people in the country believe that Iraq was behind the 9/11 atrocity.

STGRule · 03-14-2003, 08:15 PM

It was just too, too weird when I read it. :shocked:

Stratocaster · 03-14-2003, 08:22 PM

Replace the "war" with tax increase and tell the public your schools will be severly cut and tell the public they dont care about the education of their children and they will accept the rise in taxes.I guess that didnt work.Hey its friday. :grin:

HOGTIDE · 03-14-2003, 08:33 PM

A very thought provoking post, from a very bad man. Not you STG-R, the **** guy!

It is important to be a 'thinking' citizen and to assess all of the facts before casting one's political lots one way or the other.

There are times when we do have to follow our elected leadership purely on faith. Make a judgement about the character of the person in charge and then decide if you are going to support them.

I believe President Bush is a good man with good intent. I truly believe he has the best interests of our country an it's security at heart. However, I am not necessarily sold on his compelling arguement for war. It is a huge commitment of human lives and cash. I hope his resolve is based on substantial facts and knowledge.

STGRule · 03-14-2003, 08:44 PM

Hogtide: I am neither male nor ****

HOGTIDE · 03-14-2003, 09:01 PM

Oooops.....sorry about the politically incorrect gender-assumption. :grin: Should have looked under your sturgeon avatar, before making the call!

STGRule · 03-14-2003, 09:09 PM

1pump · 03-14-2003, 10:09 PM

Words of wisdom from a junkie who killed himself on the eve of his execution.

Quote:

All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.

What really scares me is that it's true. :shocked:

crabbait · 03-14-2003, 10:23 PM

Here is the same or a very similar quote from today's Oregonian:

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, a parliament or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

-- Hermann Goering, **** Reichsmarshal and Luftwaffe chief, at the Nuremberg trials

Man, I hope people ponder this statement for awhile. I got a spooky shiver when i read it. Too true!

Point-of-Sale Clerk · 03-14-2003, 10:29 PM

Great Post STGRule

happybrew · 03-15-2003, 12:33 AM

I have to agree that since we are not currently being attacked, it strikes a similarity. I certainly hope that war does not come. If it does, let's pray for a swift resolution with minimum damage, and then vote GW out of office. I certainly hope that a good Republican candidate emerges who knows the difference between a just and an unjust war. And I certainly hope that nobody thinks I'm some dread-lock wearing, tree-hugging, drum-pounding, sign-waving, dope-smoking hippy protestor for saying that. By the way, I saw signs on I-5 on my way to work for a support the troops rally at the state Capitol Sunday afternoon. I think it was for 2:30, I'll have to check.

happybrew

GutshotApe · 03-15-2003, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by happybrew:
I have to agree that since we are not currently being attacked, it strikes a similarity. I certainly hope that war does not come. If it does, let's pray for a swift resolution with minimum damage, and then vote GW out of office.

What??? Radical religious terrorists have declared war against the United States in no uncertain terms...and since 1993 have killed over 4,000 Americans. If not for the reasonable efforts of GW Bush & Co. to protect us there would probably be a lot more dead Americans lying around...a whole lot more. War is here, now...pretending its not is unwise...and what is really amazing is the large numbers of people who think they know as much or more about the threats we face than does the President.

This is not something about which reasonable people can differ....we are definitely in a war...a fight for our very survival. Some people [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img] (a small % of the total, I hope) apparently think that if we just turn the other cheek, talk nice, think nice thoughts, light a few candles, show up at the peace rally, break a few store windows, turn over and burn a few police cars, why, things will turn out just fine.

HOGTIDE · 03-15-2003, 06:23 AM

Happybrew???? I pictured more of a Volvo driving, clog wearing, one maticulously placed diamond stud, bottled water drinking, activist!

Straydog · 03-15-2003, 07:11 AM

Great post STG!

Something we really, really need to think about.

GSA,

With all due respect, I strongly differ with your assesment that we are at war.

Further, even if we were and even if WMD's were the reason, (which we are not and they are not) what are we going to do about all of BCMD????
(Box cutters of mass destruction)

[ 03-15-2003, 08:12 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

crabbait · 03-15-2003, 07:32 AM

GSA - You demonstrate the reality of the quotation perfectly.

happybrew · 03-15-2003, 08:26 AM

GSA-- By Iraq! We are not being attacked by Iraq! Stomp Al Qaida wherever you find them! But Iraq has been contained. Put all the troops we want there and threaten till the cows come home, and I'm okay with that. The minute we attack without being attacked, without the imminent threat of attack, or without someone else needing defending, we are in the wrong.

Hogtide-- Nope! Chevy S-10, only jewelry is a wedding ring, and I drink beer or coffee. Yes, I am an activist, but only for pro-life issues. The anti-Americanism of the war protestors turns my stomach.

happybrew

HOGTIDE · 03-15-2003, 09:15 AM

For the record, Hermann Goering was wrong.

The reason this long quotation of his is most frequently used is to show the **** attitude and arrogance, assuming that people of freewill within a Democratic society have no more foresight and freedom than the subjects that followed the **** Regime to their demise.

Happybrew...hope you know that I was just teasin' witcha!

STGRule · 03-15-2003, 12:00 PM

Quote:

What??? Radical religious terrorists have declared war against the United States in no uncertain terms...and since 1993 have killed over 4,000 Americans.

Iraq did that? My pessimist nature begs explanation.

Quote:

If not for the reasonable efforts of GW Bush & Co. to protect us there would probably be a lot more dead Americans lying around...a whole lot more.

Again, how? Not president bashing here. I am just asking how.

Quote:

War is here, now...pretending its not is unwise...and what is really amazing is the large numbers of people who think they know as much or more about the threats we face than does the President.

If I had faith in the intelligence of the president (or the last few presidents for that matter) I would be more willing to blindly follow. Since I don't, I need something other than "ifs".

Quote:

This is not something about which reasonable people can differ....

Actually it is, as we are reasonable, and we differ.

Quote:

we are definitely in a war...a fight for our very survival.

Our survival? As humans? As the United States of America? That sounds more like hype than fact. If I am wrong please enlighten me. I really am not as concerned as you are.

Quote:

Some people (a small % of the total, I hope) apparently think that if we just turn the other cheek, talk nice, think nice thoughts, light a few candles, show up at the peace rally, break a few store windows, turn over and burn a few police cars, why, things will turn out just fine.

I believe it is 40% at this juncture. I do not recall saying we wanted to turn the other cheek. I believe it is "slow down, be sure, and don't try to fool us with smoke and mirrors". Anybody who wants to attend peace rallies and light candles is welcome in my world. Breaking windows, and burning police cars are not done by people who don't want war. That is done by people who want attention and discord.

As for crabbait's comment. I too thought the same thing when I read what you had posted. The reason was: Lumping of things with little connection (4000 dead Americans) to the "war" with Iraq.

Quote:

All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked

Stating our very survival is at stake (without anything to back up what you stated). And generalizing that anybody whom disagrees with it as law breaking and police hating.

Quote:

and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.

HOGTIDE · 03-15-2003, 02:03 PM

Well, I don't really know if the Span-Am war is a good example of America being led astray by it's leadership. The ensueing Age of Imperialism and mercantilistic attitudes of America's general public was just a volcano waitng to erupt. From the Monroe Doctrine through Senator Henry Cabot Lodge's, "I'd like to see the American flag waving from the Arctic to South America", Americans as a whole were openly wealth and territory hungry. They weren't tricked into war...they were looking for an excuse! No one was naive as to the actions they were taking and the benefits they would reap from them.

I'm not insinuating that American leaders haven't abused their power in the past. But I am saying that it is not OK to use a quotation from **** autrocity man, Hermann Goering to paint the character of all of those supporting our executive branch as foolish sheep, blindly fulfilling the will of their leaders.

Such statements are the equivalent of the debating-nuclear bomb. You don't agree with me; Therefore you don't see the light of truth; Therefore, I discount all of your arguements and facts; Therefore, you are one of those sheep Goering was speaking of.

No debate. Mean spirited intellectual assumption, that you don't know as much as me....and I win.

See...it doesn't work in a productive dialogue.

STGRule · 03-15-2003, 02:13 PM

Hogtide. I never meant it to be anything. It was something I read and gave me pause. It would be foolish to state that it is the same for all wars. It would also be foolish to say it didn't apply to any war. Be it good or bad, the leadership of this country decides if we go to war. I'm just tired of old men sitting behind desks with flags on them sending our young and strong off to fight their war because its easier and faster than diplomacy or social change. While I am not naive enough to believe that will always fix things, I am not yet convinced we have tried hard enough yet with other solutions.

HOGTIDE · 03-15-2003, 02:22 PM

Yup, I just might be with you on that one.

GutshotApe · 03-15-2003, 05:05 PM

Quote:

......we are definitely in a war...a fight for our very survival.

Our survival? As humans? As the United States of America? That sounds more like hype than fact. If I am wrong please enlighten me. I really am not as concerned as you are.
[/QB][/QUOTE]

We are in a war like no other we have ever experienced. The world really changed on 9-11-01...there are significant numbers of religious radicals who have declared holy war against the USA. They want to kill convert us or kill us...and I think they consider our culture too far gone to convert very many...and for the first time, we are at serious risk here at home. Maybe not in Tillamook or Junction City, directly...but our country is under siege and has been for about 10 years, since the first WTC attack, at least. Our enemies are in no particular hurry...however, they are persistent.

One "worst case scenario" would be a simultaneous chemical weapons attack on the 100 largest US cities...with millions of dead Americans and a completely shattered and devastated economy, not only here but worldwide. Its a feat within the reach of terrorist groups like AlQuaida using chemical weapons already in existence in Iraq. I think President Bush and his top advisors are trying to prevent such an attack and the fact that they seem willing to go it alone (with the Brits, Aussies, and a few others) to eliminate Hussein tells me they think the chemical weapons threat, or a biological or nuclear threat, is real...Saddam is a clear & present danger.

I heard a piece on NPR, I think it was, the other day about muslim terrorists. There are about 1 billion muslims worldwide. If only 1% of them are "radical muslims" that amounts to 10 million radical people. If only 1% of these are crazy enough to participate in mass murder using chemical, biological or nuclear weapons, that means there are 100,000 in the pool for people like Saddam Hussein to recruit from....or Osama Bin Laden....or any other mad muslim cleric. It is no stretch of the imagination to think there could be two or three thousand radical mass murderers already here in the US....waiting for orders....

So far the Bush Admin. has arrested about 3,000 suspected terrorists. Probably prevented additional terrorism. Did they get 'em all...not even close.

I hope your interpretation of the situation is correct...I hope we aren't in a war and I hope the muslim terrorists call off their Jihad against us. But, what if you're wrong? :depressed:

STGRule · 03-15-2003, 05:28 PM

GSA:
The only problem I see with your scenario is I don't believe "they" can do what you hypothesize. So far, the best they can do is some conventional bombs and boxcutters and h i j a c k i n g. These do not lead me to your theory. What are your thoughts about this link?

What are your thoughts?

These, along with other reasons are why they may not be any more dangerous than an insane man with a truck full of fertilizer. And while that was a tragedy also, it just proves to me that if I feared all that "could" happen, I might never get out of bed again. Extreme Muslims have hated for thousands of years. Not much has changed in the last 200ish years.

Stratocaster · 03-15-2003, 05:36 PM

The best they could do is boxcutters and hi-*******s? Thats good enough for me.We should never underestimate the terrorists. Thats how we got it last time (9/11). I knew after a year or so the people will once again become complacent, exactly what the terrorists want.

[ 03-15-2003, 06:38 PM: Message edited by: fisherdan ]

speyfly · 03-15-2003, 05:41 PM

GSA, you sir have been terrorized! I am not saying this to insult you but I think that you are a little over the top. Yes, terrorism is new to this country but it is how you handle it that will make the greater difference. I feel that the reason that terrorism has come to this country is because we are in their country medalling in their affairs. 9/11 was a message. I know (from reading your thread) that you would not like it if another country was screwing around with your country. That is the bigger issue. As the richest country on the planet we have done little for the people of the world other than make ruthless dictators very wealthy while the poor die.

The axis of evil for me is not other countries, it is our own government. While this government has our attention focused on war and terrorism they are robbing our bank, selling out to corporate interests and stripping us of our civil liberties.

Stratocaster · 03-15-2003, 05:53 PM

I hope your not justifying the attacks 9/11 to our "medalling in their affairs" as being our fault. Our government makes tons of bad foreign policy mistakes but none to even come close to justifying an attack on CIVILIANS.Their(terrorists) message has been clear for years its "kill the infadels".

GutshotApe · 03-15-2003, 06:42 PM

STG - I went through NBC training (nuclear, biological, chemical warfare) in the Navy and learned much of what the retired sergeant wrote about. I spent 30 months on a nuclear-powered ship with my bunk less than 50' from the forward reactor...so I learned a thing or two about radiation...and I learned about nuclear weapons because we had them aboard and drilled on procedures for their use.

Later, I held an Oregon Commercial Pesticide Applicator's license (aerial, ground) for many years and am quite familiar with the technology and obstacles to overcome in order to effectively spread chemicals over large areas. I've supervised helicopter application of herbicides on way more acres than you probably want to hear about.

What the sergeant said was basically correct...deploying biological or chemical weapons effectively is not easy. But with a little training and access to simple, off-the-shelf technology...and access to chemical weapons... a few terrorists could kill a lot of Americans and send another severe shudder thru our economy...

A nuclear bomb or a "dirty" conventional bomb presents a different scenario. Yup, the New York City metro area wouldn't be completely devastated by a 20 kiloton blast....but there would be nothing left standing on Manhattan Island and a million or more would die. I don't know how you can minimize the effects of a nuclear blast in an urban area...but the sergeant seems to have tried to do just that in his piece.

A truckfull of fertilizer & diesel surrounded by radioactive sand in bags set off in an urban area would kill relatively few people (compared to a nuclear explosion)...but could make the area uninhabitable for years.

So, I think the sergeant means well, and I hope he's right...the terrorists are too unsophisticated and backwards to use modern technology against us...But, I haven't seen all the intelligence info President Bush has seen, and neither has the retired sergeant....apparently Bush, Cheney, Powell, Rumsfeld etc. think there is a real threat....and that Saddam Hussein is a major part of it...and he needs to be stopped before its too late.

Born to be Wild · 03-15-2003, 07:10 PM

When did the Gulf War end? Seems to me that we have been at war with Saddam for many years now. They shoot at our planes, we drop a few bombs.
I don't look at this as an unprovoked attack on Saddam.
The US and most of the world went to war with Saddam 11 years ago or so for his little ruthless stunt in Kuwait. Seems to me we succeeded in liberating Kuwait and called off the massacre of the rest of his military. I believe Saddam signed some agreements to disarm so he wouldn't be able to attack his neighbors or us or anyone else and not have to drag us over there again. But Saddam isn't interested in diplomacy or peace. Diplomacy didn't work. Saddam didn't disarm. Saddam gets removed. It's as simple as that! He was given the ultimatum months ago (technically years ago), but he chooses to hang onto his oh so dangerous toys. Its kind of like he violated his parole, and now its time for him to go to jail. I would have imagined we would have done the same thing to Japan if they wouldn't have lived up to there end of the bargain after WWII.

So, I look at this as Gulf War Part II. We have every right to go in there and disarm him since he chooses not. Not to mention with advances in technology, he is becoming a bigger threat to the citizens of the US. Believe I heard rumors that Saddam attempted to have the other Bush killed. Do you really think this lunatic would not provide anthrax or other toys he has to terrorist that are willing to come over here and kill millions of Americans? GSA was right on. The Bush administration has a whole lot of classified information that they unfortunately can't share with us at this time. They know a lot more than any of us do. GSA is right, Saddam is a threat to us and others and we are at war with other extremist also. Saddam needs to be removed and we have the justification to do it.

Looking at past history you can see what can happen when people are lulled asleep and don�t deal with the threats. Remember Pearl Harbor and 9/11?

HeavyMetal BankFisherman · 03-15-2003, 07:53 PM

Just because someone is for regime change in Iraq does not mean that they are being manipulated by the government. If you make that assumption then you are discounting the independent thoughts of those who believe in the use of force to disarm Iraq. I thought we should have taken him out completely in 1991 and still believe so today. I have made my decision based on what Saddaam has done. I don't need any politician to sway my mind. The facts speak for themselves.

The Kurds of northern Iraq are marking the 15th anniversary of the chemical attack carried out by Iraqi Government forces on the town of Halabja, where at least 5,000 people, many of them women and children, died in a single day. If you search the internet for Halabja you can find photo's of these attrocities. A warning, they are not for the timid. This action alone provides enough reason to take out this tyrant. Saddaam is an intentional killer of children. This is not collateral damage but planned extermination.

I wonder if any peace marchers were thinking of these victims as they marched to stop the forcefull removal of Saddaam Hussein.

[ 03-15-2003, 09:02 PM: Message edited by: HeavyMetal BankFisherman ]

speyfly · 03-15-2003, 08:00 PM

You guys are as bad as george, when one argument won�t work then you switch to another to see if you can get that one to stick. If you are so damn worried about the evil ones around the world you better be prepared to go the whole nine yards and take them all on. Now if you want a feel falling perpetual world war III never ending war then step up to the plate. If you don�t, then shut the hell up about this �we�re are liberating Iraq and saving their people!!!

Snapset · 03-15-2003, 08:06 PM

Here is one site that HMBF was referring to. Be forewarned. It is not pleasant. Speyfly, what is your problem? http://www.kdp.pp.se/chemical.html

HeavyMetal BankFisherman · 03-15-2003, 08:10 PM

Speyfly

I didn't know George was bad. I thought he was the President Of the United States of America. Its not polite to tell people to shut up. There are plenty of evil ones out there and I am sure that they are already on the radar.

GutshotApe · 03-15-2003, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by speyfly:
Now if you want a feel falling perpetual world war III never ending war then step up to the plate. If you don�t, then shut the hell up about this �we�re are liberating Iraq and saving their people!!!

What are you talking about? :whazzup:

HeavyMetal BankFisherman · 03-15-2003, 08:16 PM

Snapset

I am a grown man but I shed some tears when I saw those photo's of children killed by Saddaams chemical weapons. They were just kids. They couldn't help themselves. I wish that I could be the one to finish off Saddaam. It amazes me how some people just don't get it.

Silver Hilton · 03-15-2003, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GutshotApe:
[We are in a war like no other we have ever experienced. The world really changed on 9-11-01...there are significant numbers of religious radicals who have declared holy war against the USA. They want to kill convert us or kill us...and I think they consider our culture too far gone to convert very many...and for the first time, we are at serious risk here at home.

Um, BS.

What happened on 9/11 was that we got hit by a band of a small number of zealots that differed from Timothy Mcviegh solely in their language of birth. They used a creative approach towards disaster which killed, bluntly, a statistically insignificant number of our people. An act of war, yeah we could call it that. Threat of ongoing war? Well, it's been 18 months and they haven't been able to hit us again. You'll have to excuse me if I worry more about this pneumonia thing that is in the news now.

Sure, Al Queada is soemmthing we should address. Comparing them to Pearl Harbor is a ridiculous overstatement of the risk. More people are going to die, by a factor of ten, from automobile accidents and by a factor of 100 from tobacco, than from Al Queda adventures, EVEN IF they get lucky and drop a bomb on us this year.

I don't want these things to happen, but rational consideration and thought doesn't indicate that excitement is warranted. Better to be thoughtful and prudent, as GW's father might have been.

speyfly · 03-15-2003, 08:38 PM

If you want to see atrocities just do a simple search (Africa Atrocities). You will see death by the hundreds of thousands and that�s just a small part of what is going on around the world but remember, they have nothing we want. So don�t give me this crap that you care about the innocent civilians of Iraq. This whole war is about the axis of evil, US government, Wall Street and corporations with a little �we�re going to show the world that we are the super power� so you will fall in line and do what we tell you to do. It�s about free flowing oil to fuel OUR economy. That�s it. Do you really think that we would be there then and now if it was not about oil? Come on, get a clue. You sit back in your cozy little life and only worry about your interests and do nothing else. If you want to save innocent lives there are bigger fish to fry that the petty thug in Iraq. Just don�t try to feed me that it is about the people of Iraq cause it�s not and never has been.

HeavyMetal BankFisherman · 03-15-2003, 08:41 PM

Whats wrong with wanting the world to know that we are the sole Superpower? It makes me proud to be an American.

If and when we do something to help those suffering in other places around the world, I would imagine that those actions would be protested as well.

[ 03-15-2003, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: HeavyMetal BankFisherman ]

GutshotApe · 03-15-2003, 08:45 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Silver Hilton:

Quote:

More people are going to die, by a factor of ten, from automobile accidents and by a factor of 100 from tobacco, than from Al Queda adventures, EVEN IF they get lucky and drop a bomb on us this year.

I don't want these things to happen, but rational consideration and thought doesn't indicate that excitement is warranted. Better to be thoughtful and prudent, as GW's father might have been.

If AlQuaida gets a nuclear weapon they won't be dropping it on us...it'll probably be driven into the Holland or Lincoln Tunnel in a semi-truck trailer...and detonated there where it would make the biggest blast. It probably wouldn't be any puny 40 kiloton bomb, either...could be up to 20 megaton equiv., or more. And if that happened, it would make the annual US highway death toll pale in comparison to the body count in NY/NJ.

If you were privy to the combined intelligence assets our leadership has access to, and subjected it to rational considertion and thought, you just might become excited, too.

The only other alternative is that Bush, Cheney, Powell, Rumsfeld, etc. are all criminally insane and are all possessed by the same irrational fear of Saddam Hussein, the poor misundestood leader of the great Iraqi nation. Yeah, right.

[ 03-15-2003, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: GutshotApe ]

STGRule · 03-15-2003, 08:49 PM

Speyfly: please don't lower the quality of the conversation here. We have managed to disagree without very much trouble up till now and I would like to continue in that vein.

I agree that something has to be/should have been done. The atrocities have to quit. I can only hope that some elite group is even as we speak taking him out. I don't want to add any more than is needed to the bloodshed. And I don't want it done in the name of, or for oil.

Stratocaster · 03-15-2003, 08:58 PM

Speyfly, what you dont have a cozy little life like all the rest of us? :grin: We can disagree without getting angry, cant we? Its just opinions its not like were dictating foreign policy from ifish. Just my humble opinion.

[ 03-15-2003, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: fisherdan ]

happybrew · 03-15-2003, 11:05 PM

Yeah, I know you were just teasing! I particularly liked the "meticulously placed diamond stud" part. :tongue:

But was Goering really that wrong? Look at the Spanish American war. Talk about people getting whipped up into a frenzy because they're told they're being attacked! It was a perfect example of what he was talking about. Spain posed no threat to us, and they were considering getting out of Cuba. There was also a strong pro-independence movement in Cuba that probably would have succeeded without our involvement. But the newspapers got people whipped up into a frenzy saying we were being attacked, and exaggerated measures the Spanish took against the independence movement, and before you knew it, we were there. The Maine incident was just a pretext. They had no idea why it blew up at the time. In fact, the Spanish were just as horrified as we were. They made many concessions to avoid war, but when Congress said that Spain must leave Cuba NOW, and authorized the use of military force to make it so, that kind of made it impossible for Spain to leave Cuba and still keep face, which was what they were on the road to doing anyway. Yes, American history does have examples of what Goering was talking about.

happybrew

GutshotApe · 03-15-2003, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by crabbait:
GSA - You demonstrate the reality of the quotation perfectly.

Crabbait - You may have noticed I didn't chime in on the thread yesterday congratulating you for your even-handedness in moderating. This post of yours is a good example of why not. What you posted is borderline, if not downright, disrespectful...the kind of stuff Keta was threatened with banishment from Ifish for doing. Either moderate or participate...you don't seem to be able to fairly do both.

Born to be Wild · 03-15-2003, 11:23 PM

Silver Hilton

Quote:

What happened on 9/11 was that we got hit by a band of a small number of zealots that differed from Timothy Mcviegh solely in their language of birth. They used a creative approach towards disaster which killed, bluntly, a statistically insignificant number of our people.

�we got hit by a band of a small number of zealots�. Small number of zealots? Seems to me we have been chasing these rather large number of zealots around in Afghanistan, Pakistan, here at home and all over the world! Timothy McVeigh? How many terrorist training camps does McVeigh have? How many millions of dollars does McVeigh have? Does McVeigh have religious beliefs that would make him a suicide bomber?
�a statistically insignificant number of our people.� 3,000 dead Americans is insignificant?

Quote:

Well, it's been 18 months and they haven't been able to hit us again.

Maybe you forgot the fact that we went to war with the Taliban and Al Quieda over there in Afghanistan to attempt to prevent this from happening in the last 18 months or ever again. I think we disrupted them a bit! Killed a bunch, imprisoned a bunch and we are arresting these ******** here at home and abroad.

Quote:

Sure, Al Queada is soemmthing we should address. Comparing them to Pearl Harbor is a ridiculous overstatement of the risk. More people are going to die, by a factor of ten, from automobile accidents and by a factor of 100 from tobacco, than from Al Queda adventures, EVEN IF they get lucky and drop a bomb on us this year.

�ridiculous overstatement�? Pearl should have never happened. We had the warnings, but they were ignored. Some of you on this thread suggest we should just ignore the warning signs of Saddam�s threat. If Clinton had spent more time and effort chasing Osama and his buddies instead of Monica, we might have two towers still. Not to mention 3,000 dead fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters that would still be alive today. (You know, the statistically insignificant ones). By the way, I believe more Americans died on 9/11 than did at Pearl.

Thank God we have more responsible people governing us than some of the ones I see here and out marching or protesting.

Born to be Wild · 03-15-2003, 11:38 PM

Heavy Metal,

Quote:

It amazes me how some people just don't get it.

I'll second that one! I'm totally amazed or puzzeled also.

Degner · 03-16-2003, 10:36 AM

I have little respect for those who profess to champion human rights and yet are against corrective action in iraq. It seems to me very hippocritical. Though War should always be the last resort, show me what else has worked with this regime since 1991 to change their ways. We have tried other options and they have failed. Are we to continue with our failed policies and hope that in the future they will start working? How long do we wait as people suffer and die? Retrospectively, should we have waited as long as we did to get involved in WW2 to stop the German atrocities? How many people do you think we could we have saved?

HOGTIDE · 03-16-2003, 08:31 PM

3/15/03 9:38PM Your position, your disdain and your agenda have become crystal clear.

....and yes, most Americans do give a c*#@p about innocent lives in Iraq.

I apologize Jen. My final LIG political post..I promise!

[ 03-16-2003, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: HOGTIDE ]

Pilar · 03-16-2003, 10:10 PM

The first casualty in any war is the truth. Question authority .. discover the truth for yourself.

Many things are being done by our government to weaken our constitutional freedoms in the name of defending it. Read the first post again and think about that.

1pump · 03-16-2003, 11:21 PM

Degner, the Germans declared war on us first, because of their pact with Japan. Otherwise it would have been even longer. There was a strong isolationist element in the US at the time that wanted no part of a "foreign" war. In hindsight, we waited too long, but that was a different time. A lot of people in high places in this country were hoping the ***** would crush the "Reds" and their "Godless communism". Many Americans who opposed the ***** in the early years were labeled "premature anti-fascists" which is double-speak for communist. A lot of history texts we read in school would have you believe we all joined hands in 1941 and marched off to war in patriotic fervor. It just wasn't so.

We can't compare Saddam to Hitler. Saddam has no capabilities outside of his own country, and not many within.

Lured In · 03-17-2003, 10:53 AM

"There is nothing new under the sun..." - King Solomon.

I don't find the original quote or our current global state particularly surprising. History does repeat itself, daily.

Yes, I believe it is possible to break the cycle, and learn from history.

IMHO, people seem to fail to realize that the issue is not war, or government, rather that it is the fact that people are involved. One of the greatest things about the way our founding fathers set up our government was the relative balance of powers and representative democracy. (Not perfect, but pretty darn amazing when you consider that nothing existed like it before)

. They had the insight to intentionally try to rule out human nature and our desire for power. To try to contain it and provide a means to deal with it.

People rage at GW for "his war" and so on. Truth is that he can do little without the support of Congress. That seems to be something that is generally missing from most of the accusations against the President. He did not get here without some approval from our Congress.

QUOTE - "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

Does our government really need to tell us that we are in danger?! Think back to some of the things that took place after 9/11. "The common people" questioned the government about how "they" could let this happen. Why did the FBI and CIA not let us know we were in danger. Why did "they" not take Bin Laden from Syria back the mid 90's? There was a significant uproar over the lack of dissemination of information to the public. So now we have a Dept of Homeland Security. We have a National Terror Alert process.

We (the common people) complain when they don't tell us what is going on and don't 'protect' us. Then we complain that their is no need to protect us from that which they just told us is endangering our country! :whazzup:

I liken Iraq to a neighborhood Meth Lab. They ARE producing bad stuff. Possibly selling bad stuff to other bad people. They have "done" nothing to you and your family. So do we leave them alone? No, it is against the law to manufacture and possess Meth. With basic evidence (less than we have against Iraq), the police FORCIBLY enter the house arrest anyone who is there, and confiscate/destroy the materials for making Meth.

Why do we do this? Most of us have probably seen the pictures of what happens when a Meth lab goes up in flames.

[img]graemlins/1zhelp.gif[/img] We proactively go after the Meth labs to prevent these types of things from happening.

Iraq is breaking international law (UN Resolutions)that they agreed to be subject to. It is clear they have weapons they are not supposed to have and IMHO have lots of other stuff the inspectors will never find.

No my government doesn't need to 'convince' me Saddam, Bin Laden, or countless others are a endangering me, my family or my country. Just like they don't have to convince me that a Meth Lab next door to my house is endangering me.

ultralight · 03-17-2003, 12:24 PM

Lured In,

I have served in the military and I don�t have much confidence that our soldiers (or theirs) will make every attempt to avoid killing civilians. This is not to say that their intentions are malicious, but in the struggle and confusion of the battle, mistakes are so easily made. I refuse to accept the �collateral damage� justification for this war, which I think is avoidable.

My fishing partner endangers my life with his cigarette smoke, but I refuse to go bomb his house. This prolly isn�t a perfect analogy, either.

So who is playing the social services role in this case, to save the children?

Lured In · 03-17-2003, 12:50 PM

UL...I agree on the "collateral damage" justification. War is nasty, but there are few things in life where everyone wins. That is not to say that end justifies the means, only that war is what it is.

Actually you bring up an important point. I do not believe that this war is about "social services". Personally, it is only another reason to remove Saddam. Were it not for the war on terror, WMD, etc, I would support a war on Iraq to remove Saddam for human rights violations alone (a la Kosovo).

BTW...your analogy regarding your fishing buddy smoking (I smoke too) holds water (no pun intended). He is endangering your life to a certain extent. If you had a policy of no smoking on your boat and he disregarded that, you would be within your right to make him leave your boat. If he chose not to, you could have the police forcibly remove him from your boat. (In this analogy the boat would be the world.)

ultralight · 03-17-2003, 01:08 PM

Lured In,

If it weren�t for the human suffering and our country�s selfish motive for going to war, I�d be the first in line (really) to take out Saddam Hussein or Kim Jong Il for their brutality against the humanity. Unfortunately, using military force becomes a perpetual cycle of violence, much like a violent dysfunctional family that resort to punches whenever there is a conflict. We have bought into this idea that we must have a massive military force to deter and repel our enemies. While I mostly agree with the deterrence posture, I think an attack (preemptive) becomes a tempting and easy option when we feel impatient and the opponent is relatively weak. We have invested so much capital into building this huge military infrastructure in this country; it�s become harder to justify diplomatic approaches.

I think you�re taking the smoking buddy analogy too far. I would never treat a friend in that manner.

Born to be Wild · 03-17-2003, 02:20 PM

Well, looks like we're going in. Now whether you agree with it or not, I hope you all will support the troops, our goverment, our citizens and our Predident. Hopefully it will be fast and done with. Hopefully with as little casualitys as possible. But the fact of the matter crazy man Saddam has made his choices affecting all of us.
If the meth lab druggie takes hostages, you just don't walk away and let him continue because of the risk to the innocent and law enforcement that might suffer casualitys.

Anyway, it's going to happen. Might be interesting to see what weapons and documents they find and when it's all said and done and if some of them have the "made in France" label on them.

ultralight · 03-17-2003, 11:26 PM

Except there are 23 million people, more than half of them children, living inside the meth lab. :depressed:

Lured In · 03-17-2003, 11:53 PM

Ultralight...so I ask you, do you think social services would allow children to live in a Meth Lab? :depressed: Would you? In scenarios like this the authorities make every effort to protect the "innocent", why would the military act any differently?

Will civilians, including children be hurt or killed during the war? Sadly, I would say that is going to be hard not to do. I do have every confidence in our soldiers that they will make every attempt to avoid killing civilians. If Saddam uses his people as shields, it only enforces what a menace he is. But whose responsibility is that? Couldn't Saddam (the owner of the Meth Lab), simply give up and walk out into custody? Yes. Does he care? No.

My analogy was not intended to be perfect, only to illustrate that someone does not have to personally hurt you in order to endanger your life.

fishbane · 03-18-2003, 05:26 PM

Bush has played right into Bin Ladens Number one goal. Uniting the muslim world against us. Bush and his admin will have completed the the attack of 9/11 for Bin Laden and others when the bombs drop.

We don't want to look at it but we have backed and assasinated leaders for years and they hate us because we have double standards. Look at the shaw of Iran or all the nifty training and money we gave to Bin laden, The Taliban and Sadam. The world knows this and holds us accountable. We need to be leaders not childern striking out in anger. And Certainly not arrogant christians. Remeber there are far more Muslims then christians in this world.
I pray for america to see the light.

crabbait · 03-18-2003, 05:35 PM

DBD - Four out of five ain't bad, is it? The Predident is on hid own!

[ 03-18-2003, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: crabbait ]