** Anti-War Protest Saturday **

Kilgore · 03-14-2003, 06:15 PM

There will be an ANTI WAR Rally tomorrow (Saturday, March 15, 2003) from 2 pm to 6 pm at Waterfront Park in Portland.

I will be participating with several of my veteran buddies who feel that this is an unjust war which disregards the safety of innocent Iraqi citizens and the troops on both sides who will be forced to fight because of two belligerent leaders who disrespect the opinions of their people and the world. I believe there are better and less bloody means to get rid of the threat Saddam poses, and this impending war is not the answer to the instability we face in the world today.

This may be one of the last chances we have to express our opposition to Bush's extreme measure to rush to war. I hope to see many of you who value all and every human life, and also those who want peace and cooperation prevail over war and intimidation.

[ 03-15-2003, 12:47 PM: Message edited by: Kilgore ]

Boedy · 03-14-2003, 06:32 PM

Watch out for the pepper spray! :grin:

Hope you have some support the troops signs to go along with your we hate the president ones.

Hogmaster · 03-14-2003, 06:55 PM

Just wondering...

Are there going to be signs out protesting all the innocent Iraqi civilians that the Iraqi dictator has executed, starved and prevented from being able to express their free will by doing things like protesting?

I hope so!

Just trying to figure out how many innocents are OK to kill...

ultralight · 03-14-2003, 07:11 PM

Kilgore,

I am glad you posted this. I'll be more than happy to be there to oppose this possible war. As Bush has said, I'll be showing my "card" to let him know how much I disapprove of his reckless policies and mishandling of this entire situation that he backed himself and us into.

HeavyMetal BankFisherman · 03-14-2003, 07:12 PM

Hopefully it will stay under control. It's supposed to be quite large. I know of several individuals that plan on participating. I will not be participating. If anything, I will be standing on Broadway with a "Support Our Troops" sign. Unfortunately Portland is a magnet for every anarchist in the country. What may start as a peacful march will most likely end up with idiots with covered faces and cans of spray paint vandalizing. I am sure that the Portland police are getting thier riot gear in order.

STGRule · 03-14-2003, 07:12 PM

That's the great thing about this country. You can be for or against anything you want. And nobody can tell you otherwise. If you believe it, say it. If you don't, say it. Never let your beliefs intrude on the rights of others, nor let others beliefs intrude on yours. Just remember to listen carefully before making a judgement.

Stratocaster · 03-14-2003, 07:32 PM

The protests are bound to get violent, lets hope not. Eventually itll get out of hand. Many organizers have stated they are going to get aggresive and start breaking the law

Which would be the ultimate oxy-moron.

Kilgore · 03-14-2003, 07:46 PM

For the record, this protest is not about anti-Saddam, anti-Kim Jong-Il, or anti-Mohammad Khatami. I'm protesting the bigger of the two threats between Bush and Saddam, thus no one should misunderstand my intention as support for Saddam.

Having been a soldier for eight years, I would never be anti-American troops. Anyone even remotely intimating that doesn't know me at all. As someone who fought in the Desert Storm and is suffering from the Gulf War Syndrome, I would prefer not to send the troops there in the first place, unless absolutely necessary.

And now is NOT the time to sacrifice our precious young men and women.

fisherdan,

Where did you hear or read that the organizers have stated that they are going to start breaking the law?

If that's true, that would be very much counter-productive to the message I want to send, and I in no way condone violence. How does one march for peace by demonstrating violence???

[ 03-14-2003, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: Kilgore ]

Stratocaster · 03-14-2003, 07:52 PM

Its been on the tube most of last week and usa today i believe, ill try to find a link. Heres an example. civil disobediance

[ 03-14-2003, 09:01 PM: Message edited by: fisherdan ]

HeavyMetal BankFisherman · 03-14-2003, 07:53 PM

Actually, if anything. I will be on the sidelines with a camera. I would love to get a picture that might help the police catch any possible thugs that may want to bring violence to this peace march.

Kilgore · 03-14-2003, 08:28 PM

Ultralight,

your signature line perfectly illustrates my sentiment about the impending war. :grin:

Bush is involved but the troops are committed.

If one of his daughters were deployed in the Gulf wearing BDUs under her MOPP suit, I would feel a lot more confident in Bush's decision making. I just feel very sorry for the troops...and the Iraqi people. :depressed:

HOGTIDE · 03-14-2003, 08:50 PM

Have you seen the recent reports of PRO-war demonstrations by Islamic groups with relatives within Iraq? ShiHite Muslims and Marsh-Muslims claim that 1000's are displaced and killed annually under the rule of Saddam.The American Islamic Society claims that 1000's more, relatives and political prisoners are killed annually through the use of poison gas.

The newest UpFront magazine has some great graphics showing how Saddam intentionally displaced these groups from their origins within Iraq. One of the worlds greatest environmental disasters is supposed to be the draining of the Iraqi marshlands, orchestrated by Saddam purely to destroy the life and economy of the Muslims living there. The ShiHites bands were immediately displaced to the south and the east to take them away from the wealth of the oil resources found within the region they lived upon. The Kurdish groups, of course are killed routinely, whenever it is convenient or the operation can be clandestine enough to escape the international press.

One displaced Muslim simply stated, " War or no war, it makes no difference to us. We are slowly dieing here."

Maybe joining the protests of these groups would actually be taking the moral high ground???

Well, if there ever was anything the First Amendment WAS intended for, it is Political Speech and Political Protest.

...don't think those ol' boys were really concerned with the rights of topless dancers and pornographers.
So, exercise your participatory right, PROTEST when you believe the situation calls!

[ 03-14-2003, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: HOGTIDE ]

feisty's wife · 03-15-2003, 01:10 AM

Kilgore, I applaud your actions, as I agree with your stand, I however, have GOT TO GO FISHING< AS I NEED THAT FIX!

Jennie@ifish · 03-15-2003, 05:53 AM

I am all for peace, and I would probably even go, but... I have a problem with this.

This peace protest is going to cost how much to our city? 20k, I heard?

Isn't there a better way to spend our money? If they can find 20k for that, what about our children's schools?

Maybe I don't understand the politics of this. Could you help me understand?

Jen

STGRule · 03-15-2003, 12:09 PM

You might be surprised at how many people who will march today do those very things HMBF. Do you?

Jennie@ifish · 03-15-2003, 12:41 PM

I'd pay 20k anyday if it were to save lives... but I'm just not convinced that it will!!!
I don't understand it.. I'm not against it, at all.
People get hurt on these marches for "peace" and that, to me, is not peaceful. I see cops all dressed up in really scary gear and I do not see "peace" in that either.
It's just confusing to me. Why can't people march for peace in a place that doesn't require police protection?
Why in downtown Portland?
Why not on the beach, at the coast? Or someplace where there is plenty of room for people?

I guess I'm missing the point. Will our President listen to the people of Portland?

I respect what you are doing, but I guess I am still confused by the whole topic of this war.

I see the war as a scary thing capapble of killing many people, and I see the prospect of doing nothing capable of killing many people.

I guess, like many of us, including those in charge... I don't have the answer.

...and I'm certainly not going to pretend I do by chanting "I'm RIGHT and you are WRONG!"

I simply don't know what is right, so please, don't insult me by saying that I'm not willing to pay 20k for peace.

If it were that simple, I'd hand you all of my visa cards in a second.

..and with that, know that I'll be there, in that peace march, in my heart. I truly am horrified by the thought of killing innocent people in Iraq.

Jen

[ 03-15-2003, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: Jennie@ifish ]

STGRule · 03-15-2003, 04:14 PM

Wow, 20,000 - 30,000 people marching peacefully. A couple problems with a fringe group not in the march. People on both sides meeting and talking. Again, wow.

HeavyMetal BankFisherman · 03-15-2003, 04:36 PM

I commend the Anti War protesters for conducting themselves in a civilized manner. I just drove through downtown and everything seemed pretty tame.

STGRule, I have been a Meals on Wheels driver for Loaves and Fishes, have ran in the "Race for the Cure" several times, donate blood regularly, and do whatever I can for those that can't help themselves.

Jennie@ifish · 03-15-2003, 04:36 PM

I just saw a poll on the news. It stated that 76 percent of people think that people march in peace protests solely to make those people feel better.

The rest voted that it actually made a difference.

What is your feeling?

I asked my kids if they wanted to go, this morning. They weren't that interested, but then... they are teenagers.

How do your kids feel, if you have them?

Mine are totally against war, and do not respect President Bush very much.

It's interesting, but look what kind of role models we have had in Presidents for them to "admire."... I grew up "demanded" to respect our President.

Seems no one does, anymore.

I am so confused about all this stuff. I want to be against the President's proposal of war, but it feels almost blasphemous to me.

I'm sure that my kids have picked up on my disrespect for him, by my comments of confusion over what he is thinking...

I wish that I had direct strong feelings, one way or another, but there is so much to know to understand it, that I feel that I can't come to a judgement until I know all, and I'll never know all!

Thanks for listening to my babbling confusion. :smile:

STG, you make it sound so awesome! Maybe I should try it sometime...

I know what it is! I feel kind of like by doing that, by standing my feelings against what our leader is doing, that I would be a part of the disharmony that exists between the people of what we are supposed to be.

A United Nation.

How can we be united if we are divided? That bothers me alot. It shakes to the very core of what I grew up to believe, when I placed my hand on my heart and said the Pledge of Allegiance.

Is Patriotism nothing but corn ball now days?
Am I old fashioned?

I want to click my heels and say, "There is no place like home..."

How can we come together to all get the peace that we all want, every person, every child, every adult wants peace. Don't we?

Jen

[ 03-15-2003, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: Jennie@ifish ]

Snapset · 03-15-2003, 05:00 PM

My dilemma is this:
Either President Bush has damning information that he simply cannot share, or he is so evil and untrustworthy that it scares me.

Call me naive, but I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt, until he proves to me that he is not to be trusted..... If things have gotten as bad as some of the Bush haters proclaim, then this country is so morally bankrupt that I see no way that the Union can survive.

HeavyMetal BankFisherman · 03-15-2003, 05:04 PM

Just saw a story on the news about a group of Bikers that rode into Portland to donate thier time and lots of food to the Salvation Army. Imagine if 20,000 people all marched to the Oregon Food Bank with a can of food. That would help feed many hungry Oregonians. That would make a difference. That would be helping people. That would be a march that I would condone 100%

Stratocaster · 03-15-2003, 05:29 PM

Snapset, Bush may be misguided, he may know more than us (sure of that one)He may be right, maybe wrong, but i doubt very much that he is evil. Time will tell if he makes good decisions on the diarmament of Iraq or regime change. It possibly could turn out well, no one knows for sure, at this juncture its pure opinion, then again it could turn out badly. I surely do not know and am no expert. I personally abhor war, but sometimes the threat of war can bring about compliance, as in this case.The talk lately of a large portion of the Iraqi army possibly surrendering at the start of the war would be great.Hopeful for a happy ending."Mind of the married man" :grin:

ROGUE35 · 03-15-2003, 07:09 PM

W O W support yor country not a killer of his own people

Snapset · 03-15-2003, 07:46 PM

Fisherdan, I agree with you. I still trust this President, and I hope the facts as they emerge will confirm my trust.

However if we go to war, innocent people will die. Unnecessarily? I don't know.

Think of it this way. Remember how happy we were to hear that girl was found alive. Now take the opposite of that emotion, multiply it by the number of wartime caualties, that is how we should feel entering a war that is not justifiable on a non-economic basis. I am not saying there should be no war. But I sure would like to be more convinced before the enormous killing power we possess is unleashed.

We have never been bombed, we have no concept of the terror and mayhem our aerial warfare can wreak from a first-person viewpoint. War for the typical American has become a Video-Game called CNN, and the points are tallied in unseen shredded bodies. If we have no moral mandate for the war, then we truly are bankrupt, and the judgement that awaits us is going to be a fierce event.

For the record, I could not care less what the rest of the world thinks of us. Those that support us are just like the people who do not go to the peace rally. They will not be shown on TV.

Kilgore · 03-15-2003, 08:44 PM

No violence, no pepper spray. Just a nice long walk down the middle of the streets of downtown Portland. Got to see the buildings from a slightly more �open� perspective. Along with some comical and trivial costumes, there were many somber yet resolved faces all opposed to going to war with Iraq.

More than anything else, I was there to add another body count in opposing the war. But I could not help myself being a people watcher. My roving eyes read every sign in range and then quickly assessed the person holding the message. It was quite interesting to say the least. There were many grandparents, mothers with daughter(s), teachers, and people from all walks of life. One thing I did feel, however, was that the people I was walking with seemed awfully compassionate and good human beings.

I hope we don�t have to go to war. I hope Hussein�s generals take him out quickly. But until I feel that there is an imminent threat from Hussein, I will continue to protest this unjust war.

Big_Fishee · 03-15-2003, 10:00 PM

kilgore, i was there too, with my friends. like you said it was a great experience for me. both the protestors and the police were very respectful...many were greeting and smiling at each other.

it was interesting to see so many creative phrases. the funniest one said, "Bombing for Peace is like fu*king for virginity." (i hope this is not inappropriate) :grin:

Fish_N_Russ · 03-15-2003, 10:28 PM

Im just curious, the folks that are protesting, what solutions or options do you favor?

Kilgore · 03-15-2003, 11:14 PM

Jennie,

I am checking the weather forecast and getting ready to go to downtown. Never having done anything like this in my life, I feel somewhat anxious, yet motivated to go and show my opposition to the impending war.

Actually I would think that it would cost the city more than $20k to control the tens of thousands of protestors. But I�m amazed that you�d be concerned about that when tens of thousands of innocent lives are at stake if we go to war. What about the war costing us $50 to $100 billion? Where is that going to come from?

I think $20k is a small sacrifice to pay compared to the nightmarish hell the war would create in terms of human suffering, death, refugee crisis, environmental crisis, global economy, greater terrorist threats, etc. Jennie, I think this is exactly the time for reasonable and compassionate people like you and me to send the strongest possible message to those who can still avoid the war and the bloodshed.

In light of Mr. Bush�s determined arrogance, I feel the need to show my patriotic disapproval. I have never felt that our president could actually be so reckless and shortsighted, but Bush is exceeding my expectations. Come join me Jennie and other ifishers!

HeavyMetal BankFisherman · 03-15-2003, 11:27 PM

Twenty thousand dollars is not a small price to pay it is a waste of money. If anyone actually thinks that some march going on in Timbuk Portland is going to have any effect on what is going to happen regarding Iraq, I just have to say Wake Up. Just imagine all of the constructive things that could be accomplished if those marchers were to put thier time into something more productive that would even produce results.

Lets see. Help the elderly with home repairs. Clean trash from our roadways. Volunteer time to a charity. It's every Americans right to participate in these marches. But in reality isn't it just a waste of time and money?

Oh wait, I live in Portland where the Liberals worry about everything except thier own backyard.

Boedy · 03-15-2003, 11:31 PM

Fishnruss, I will tell you what the tie-dye coalition will do .

<ul type="square">[*]They will just sit back and await another 9-11.[/list]
<ul type="square">[*]They will call the President names and pretend to know something about world politics[/list]
<ul type="square">[*]The will offer no real solutions to the question of Iraq[/list]
<ul type="square">[*]They will support the communist party that runs all these protest.[/list]
<ul type="square">[*]They will hold to the party line and scream about the poor innocent Iraqi’s that we will kill and forget about the poor Iraqis that Saddam kills everyday.[/list]
<ul type="square">[*]They will do nothing but strengthen Saddam’s resolve and give him the hope that he may still get out of his current predicament by marching, making our troops job tougher.[/list]
<ul type="square">[*]They will all look like fools when we find out how much Saddam has been hiding all this time[*]Edited by Boedy as to not offend any of my commrads :grin:[*]They will waste a lot of money[/list]
And in the end you know what? this is the part that warms my heart… Bush still does what needs to be done.

Lucky for all you protesters that President Bush will act regardless of what you or the polls say.

[ 03-16-2003, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: Boedy ]

1pump · 03-15-2003, 11:44 PM

Unbelievable..........

Schimoozie · 03-16-2003, 12:07 AM

Let me take a stab at this.

I am against the war with Iraq because it sets a terrible precedence and creates an even worse instability. So, my opposition is not so much because I have a better solution to the Iraq dilemma, but because I want to prevent multiple negative consequences to our military action.

Second, the assertion that Iraq is a threat to us is like saying that Robert Blake is a threat to Arnold Schwarzenegger. We probably have a military force a hundred times more powerful than Saddam's, and we can annihilate him in matter of hours if he makes a wrong move. The reason that the whole world is against us is that the bully is saying that he is threatened by a six-year old brat, without presenting a convincing evidence of the threat. Thus people are saying that they feel more threatened by the US than by Saddam.

This administration says that the war is the last resort, but I don�t buy it. I want the war option to be truly the last option. It�s clear to most of the people that this administration�s true intent is to change the regime in Baghdad, not the disarmament of WMD. That�s a terrible policy to announce, because then Saddam has really no incentive to disarm when he knows that he�ll be attacked no matter what, as long as he�s in power.

So, the option I propose is to step up the inspection by increasing the number of inspectors and making them far more intrusive and coercive. Really tighten the rope around any suspicious WMD site. If we are willing to send 300,000 troops to potentially die for war, I think we can send as many to peacefully disarm Saddam w/o innocent lives lost. Some seem to believe that we have the intelligence that proves Saddam�s possession of WMD. If so, why not use it to get rid of them?

Finally, we need to work on our moral authority by intensely and fairly working on Middle East peace process and cooperating with the world. We simply cannot depend on our military and economic power to bully the world. By winning the world opinion, we can put far greater pressure on Iraq and other potential rogue nations to comply with the world�s demands. I admit that there are no simple answers for the current problem in Iraq, but that�s no reason to rush to war when the threat is not imminent.

Jennie@ifish · 03-16-2003, 05:57 AM

Dear Boedy:

You seemingly cannot be level headed with your viewpoints on the ifish board. You seemingly need to call names in order to get your point across.
I'm tired of it, and I would hate to see you go away from ifish, but I've just about had all I can take.
I am asking the moderators to review your posts, and I'm not quite sure what we are going to come up with...

Please, again, cease with the name calling.

Your viewpoints are yours, and I cannot judge you for having them, but I can stop you from calling people with other views names, and putting them down.
-----
From the acceptable use policy:

Inflammatory posts are not permitted. A post, or statement in a post, which serves only to fire up negative emotions or generate anger will be considered inflammatory and will be edited or deleted at the discretion of the moderators. Multiple offenses of this nature will result in banning.
-----

Fellow ifishers: Feel free, as I cannot read every post, report abusers of this policy to me, so that I can record multiple offenses.

Thank you.

Jen

[ 03-16-2003, 07:08 AM: Message edited by: Jennie@ifish ]

Thumper · 03-16-2003, 07:05 AM

There are several million Iraqis in the U.S. Isn't it interesting that none of them are demonstrating against the impending war .....

By the way Jennie, I just reviewed all of Boedy's posts on this thread. I don't think he called anyone names. I think that on this thread he speaks the truth in a totally respectful, noninflammatory way. But sometimes the truth is painful.

[ 03-16-2003, 08:11 AM: Message edited by: Thumper ]

Jennie@ifish · 03-16-2003, 07:15 AM

The tie dye coalition smoking pot and eating granola is not inflamatory and insulting?

I don't think any one of these people on this board quite fit than insinuation. I guess if he's speaking the truth, I better tell STG to quit smoking pot.

STG and all you other people at that peace protest?? QUIT SMOKING POT! :smile:

No wait, On the other hand, if pot, granola, and tie dyed shirts make the world peaceful, hand it over! :smile: I want lots and lots of all of it!

Thumper, I respectfully disagree.

Jen

[ 03-16-2003, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: Jennie@ifish ]

Thumper · 03-16-2003, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jennie@ifish:
The tie dye coalition smoking pot and eating granola is not inflamatory and insulting?

Nope. Very accurate though. I'm sure it would not apply to any Ifishers. :smile:

Accusing the "tie dye coalition" of smoking pot and eating granola is considered inflamatory, but calling our President "arrogant" and "reckless" (see Kilgore's post) is not? Strange world .....

[ 03-16-2003, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: Thumper ]

Sea Nymph · 03-16-2003, 07:21 AM

I heard some Iraqi women now living in the USA say the protestors aren't protesting against war, they are protesting against the liberation of The iraqi peoople and they don't even realise it. A question presented to one of the women was "isn't it better to live under saddam than to face possible death in a war"? Her answer was "the Iraqi people are allready at war. saddam waged war against his people long ago". Each woman (12 or so) had horror stories from iraq. They said for each story they told, thousands goe untold. Stories of ****, torture, killing children in front of their parents etc etc...

I watched these women on Fox News as they spoke in front of US officials (not sure who the officials were)

SN

Jennie@ifish · 03-16-2003, 07:27 AM

I opened this site to learn about fishing and share fun times.
Thought it could spill over to learning about other things.
I was wrong.
This is pointless. All opinions, and they seem to turn hateful.
I'm out.

Jen

Straydog · 03-16-2003, 08:35 AM

I find Boedy's comments quite inflammatory as I am sure a lot of the protesters would. From what I am reading, the protesters consist of people from all walks of life and with widely differing attire and social attitudes.

To stereotype a WWII vet, a dead soldier's widow or a dead soldiers surviving parents with the lables Boedy does for those that see the world differently is certainly inflammatory and disrepectful.

[ 03-16-2003, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

Thumper · 03-16-2003, 08:41 AM

Let us all agree on one thing --- the issues of this war are complex, very serious and create strong feelings among and between us. Our lives in America today are all about these complexities, and if a board is called "Life In General" there is no way to avoid discussing those issues. I, for one, think it is healthy. And I appreciate everyone's views, including Boedy's and Kilgore's.

America --- Whadda country!

STGRule · 03-16-2003, 09:00 AM

While it is highly unlikely that anybody will change anyone�s mind about most things, maybe we can at least learn how not to paint with broad strokes, and to understand how our personal morals and views on life color our beliefs. It doesn't make our beliefs wrong, just gives us a reason to sort through why we believe it. If you choose to dismiss a view because its easier for you to think of the person as a "tie-dyed, pot-smoking, tree-hugger" or a "lock-step, blind follower" or any other derogatory dismissive you choose to diminish the character of others, then you are the loser in the interaction.

HOGTIDE · 03-16-2003, 09:10 AM

I like the sound of that STG Rule! Is EVERYBODY listening?!

....and, if you eat too much granola....you won't be able to complete the whole demonstration! :tongue:

Pete · 03-16-2003, 09:10 AM

Jack, I agree, "there is no way to avoid discussing those issues. I, for one, think it is healthy". However, it is very hard to discuss issues when people's position and beliefs are attacked with ad hominum and collateral arguments. If we all stick to the issues and help to learn the facts of the sitation, we will all come away with greater understanding. I'd really rather understand what the social situation in Iraq is, how different possible courses of action could affect the future of that country and our own, than to hear a broad characterization about the person or group expressing their view. There are strengths and weaknesses in every course of action. We as citizens of the U.S. don't have inside information on the political and diplomatic efforts under way to resolve the situation. We are not privy to specific national security threats. Some of us choose to trust our leaders. Others question the absence of formal, public justification for what appears to be our course of action. None of these beliefs are "right" or "wrong" ... they are a matter of belief based on feelings and limited access to the facts of the situation.

As a base point, lets agree that liberation of Iraqi society is desirable. We might even be able to agree that reducing external terror threats to our country is desirable. But how we get to those objectives and the evidence supporting those objectives are largely open to speculation and opinion based on the news sources available to us.

We all came to this web site because we share a love for sport fishing. Let's build on that by showing respect for other people's opinions and beliefs and maintaining a level of civility. It really isn't necessary to characterize people with opposing beliefs in broad, uncomplimentary generalizations. Doing so really detracts from the value of any discussion and renders it unproductive.

[ 03-16-2003, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: Pete ]

DanS · 03-16-2003, 09:16 AM

Quote:

None of these beliefs are "right" or "wrong" ... they are a matter of belief based on feelings and limited access to the facts of the situation.

Haven't heard it said better than that Pete.

Boedy · 03-16-2003, 09:22 AM

Jen I was not calling anybody on Ifish names and I was speaking about the protesters in general. Just because my point of view doesn�t fit yours doesn�t mean it isn�t true or I should not be able to say what I feel any less then them Protesters. If you start banning people for disagreeing with you then so be it but I think it will be a sad day for all of Ifish when speaking out against the �Party line� or disagreeing with Jen gets you kicked. The tie dye, tree hugging stuff was a little fun and nothing worse then the name calling of our own President that goes on here daily and I don�t see you standing up to that.

Again let me say that I was not calling anybody a name or singling out any person on Ifish I guess you just read what you want to read into a post.

[ 03-16-2003, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: Boedy ]

Thumper · 03-16-2003, 09:23 AM

Well said, :smile: Pete.

Pete · 03-16-2003, 09:33 AM

Boedy, "speaking about the protesters in general" is the issue, not your political perspective! What were talking about is being respectful of other people's beliefs. Build on the discussion, rather than cutting down the messenger.

Boedy · 03-16-2003, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pete:
Boedy, "speaking about the protesters in general" is the issue, not your political perspective! What were talking about is being respectful of other people's beliefs. Build on the discussion, rather than cutting down the messenger.

Pete I respect you option and will try and refrain from painting with a wide brush as you suggest.

But my point is where is the outcry over how they paint the President and those who support the war with the same brush.

Over and over I see the President referred to as Hitler and called stupid and an out of control cowboy and there is no condemnation for that. They don�t seem to think grouping Bush in the same category as the biggest mass murder in history is over the top and disrespectful to my beliefs.

In all honestly all my comments where just poking a little fun with the stereotypes of the protesters and wasn�t meant to offend anyone. People need to relax and not take things so personal I take a lot of grief for my beliefs on this board and am able to see the humor in most of it. Just wish some would cut me the same slack that I cut them for their comments.

[ 03-16-2003, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: Boedy ]

Kilgore · 03-16-2003, 10:35 PM

Thumper and Boedy,

The case you make regarding what Boedy said and what I said about Bush is comparing apples and oranges. There are court precedence that makes it clear that when a person assumes a public position, he or she also assumes a greater level of public scrutiny and criticism. Bush has power and influence, which no other person in the world can equal, thus it�s a red herring to compare my (and millions of other) criticism of him to Boedy�s snide and obnoxious comments to all and everybody who disagree with him.

Besides the words �arrogant� and �reckless� are the exactly the same words used by the former National Security Advisor, Brent Scowcroft, under Bush, Sr. to criticize Bush�s war proposal. Those and even harsher words were used by dozens of nationally prominent leaders and in the media editorial articles.

And if you carefully study the intent of the persons making these claims, I think it�s clear that mine was done in accurate and good faith while Boedy�s wasn�t.

Boedy · 03-16-2003, 10:43 PM

Cant let it just die can you Kilgore.

Schimoozie · 03-16-2003, 11:12 PM

I'm with Kilgore on this. His posts were only directed at the president and did not attack anybody else on the board. Besides, it's pretty difficult to have a political debate w/o criticizing the elected politicians.

03-17-2003, 12:53 AM

Well let's see here.I have a really great tie-dyed shirt :grin: ...I like granola :smile: ...Now what was that third thing I need?

Whether or not you agree with Jennie is irrelevent. She has made the rules on this forum and I suppose if you don't like it you can frequent some other bulletin board.Remember we get the priveldge of using ifish for FREE

TheTexan · 03-17-2003, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Schimoozie:

Second, the assertion that Iraq is a threat to us is like saying that Robert Blake is a threat to Arnold Schwarzenegger.

I assume that Blake should be a free man, since he was only a threat to his own wife(who is now deceased). Blake certainly isn't a threat to you or me, so let's free him! I just don't understand this sort of reasoning.

Saddam may not be a threat to us currently (your opinion), but he is a threat to his people and neighbors!

[ 03-17-2003, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: ex-tex ]

Schimoozie · 03-17-2003, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ex-tex:
I assume that Blake should be a free man,

Did you read anybody suggest that he should be a free man? You know what happens when you assume, right?

Quote:

Originally posted by ex-tex:
Saddam may not be a threat to us currently (your opinion), but he is a threat to his people and neighbors!

Then why are his neighbors (save Kuwait) against the war against Iraq?

[ 03-17-2003, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: Schimoozie ]

TheTexan · 03-17-2003, 06:44 PM

Schim,
I made an assumption, but your comparison left it open. (to me anyway) Please further explain your comparison, so that I can understand your point of view.

I left my statement open and you made an assumption also. What I meant was that the entire world would like to get rid of Saddam, including ALL of his neighbors. Even though a lot of them don't agree with the war they would like to see him disappear.

[ 03-17-2003, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: ex-tex ]

Bankbound · 03-17-2003, 09:38 PM

I recieved a letter today from one of my best friends. He is a NBC (nuclear, biological and chemical) Weapons specialist in the USMC. HOO RAH!!!! He stated that arouns three weeks ago he was required to dawn his breathing mask and "IT WAS NOT A DRILL".

My brother was down at the protest the other day, so I am close to both sides.

So, (by the way I'm a democrat, listen to grateful dead etc...) if Saddam is such an ok guy and is destroying his weapons. WHY DID MY FRIEND WHO IS STATIONED IN KUAIT ON THE IRAQUI BORDER HAVE TO WEAR HIS GAS MASK!!!!!

Some of the people in Portland give Oregon a bad name.

P.S. You know in Washington D.C. the politicians call us "Little Beirut" (sp?)??!!

MH

Lured In · 03-18-2003, 01:40 PM

"Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. "

I heard on the news this morning, that another anti-war protest is coming up. Apparently some are planning on blocking traffic without authorization. With that intent, I would hardly describe it as a peaceable assembly. Personally, I find this extremely disturbing.

From the sounds of it, last weekend's protest was a relatively amiable event. (Not including some apparent "fringe" protestors). Good on you!

Is anyone opposed to these protests really against the protest message itself or is it against those that are irresponsible during these protests? Personally, I fully support the Presidents actions, and while I am certainly not "excited" to see us enter a war, I do believe it's time has come. That said, protest all you want, but don't infringe on my freedoms in the process.

Those that do not agree with me, have every right to. And I will even defend the right of those who oppose the war to protest. I will not tolerate; however, those that feel they can abuse their right to assemble by infringing on my right to pursue my life by blocking traffic.

I simply do not understand those that are willing to put their freedoms ahead of the freedoms of others.

By its very nature, this behavior is self defeating and IMHO shows a clear lack of respect for their very freedom they claim to be exercising.

My point is this, with freedom comes responsibility. With responsibility comes accountability. As with other freedoms such as driving or owning a gun, freedom of speech and assembly are not without responsibility. If these freedoms are not practiced responsibly, they will be held accountable for the outcome of their behavior.

Our "rights" are intended to provide us with protections that enable us to pursue life, liberty and happiness. You are free to say what you want and assemble, but you are not free from accountability.

If any of the anti-war (or pro-war for that matter) protests begin to infringe on the freedoms of others, I will feel no remorse for the actions taken against them by law enforcement officers.

Just my .02.

USA! USA! USA! :grin:

Degner · 03-18-2003, 01:51 PM

Lured-in, excellent point. [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

Cool Texan · 03-18-2003, 02:43 PM

So a guy walks into a bar...a poodle under one arm, and a 5 pound salami under the other.. Just then, a priest sees him and says....

sorry...just trying to lighten the mood around here.

Hoosier Daddy · 03-18-2003, 02:44 PM

Something I have been noticing lately, and this is just a generality, is the difference in demeanor between the "pros" and the "cons" of going in or not.
The "cons" seem to in general be quite rabid and passionate about stopping the war, while the "pros" seem to have the opinion that it's not what we want to do, but we have to do it, and are more stoic about it. Doesn't it seem that if "pros" were a bunch of war mongers, as I have been hearing lately, that they would be more rabid about it?
Just a point. We are all entitled to our view on the issue, whether that's for or against. It just often seems unbalanced to me in that many that are "pro" are tolerant of the "cons" view in light of our freedom and that being what the country is based on etc. I don't hear that same respect from a lot of the "cons" that are making it on TV. In other words, many of them feel the "pro" view is wrong, evil, un-American, whatever.....