george's war

speyfly · 03-06-2003, 10:27 AM

US diplomat resigns (The Oregonian). This is a good place to centralize the war debate.
THE SAD STORY

Stratocaster · 03-06-2003, 12:45 PM

Thats a complimental piece compared to what my resignation letter would look like to my employer :grin:

Thumper · 03-06-2003, 12:58 PM

You may dislike or not trust President Bush. But poll after poll indicates the American people have very high regard for, and trust in, Colin Powell. To see his determination to press on with the war indicates clearly that there is much, much more to the issue than we are led to believe.

Bait O' Eggs · 03-06-2003, 01:08 PM

He doesnt sound like the kind of guy I want working for the US in that position anyway. Either support the boss or step down which he did.

It is not right or wrong, but when ever a company is bought or taken over, owners replace management with people who they trust and will do things the way they want. Looks like GW didnt know this guys heart or he would have replaced him earlier.

I once worked for a company with a President/CEO and 5 VP's. When the new owner took over the President/CEO position he replaced each of the VP's at one month intervals to the day. Nice smooth transition into bringing in his own people. It is no different for the President of the Nation. He picked his cabinet right off the bat, and it looks like GW is still getting the rest of his staff in place.

speyfly · 03-06-2003, 01:15 PM

This is a quote that I think fits the times.
"What good fortune for those in power that people do not think".
- Adolf Hitler

Stratocaster · 03-06-2003, 01:25 PM

It certainly fit much better when it was said.

The Fishing Geek · 03-06-2003, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fisherdan:
It certainly fit much better when it was said.

Why? Do you think that something like **** Germany could only happen 60 years ago?

Stratocaster · 03-06-2003, 01:47 PM

The extermination of 6 million Jews, yes. I do not know to whom the quote that speyfly listed referred to.

[ 03-06-2003, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: fisherdan ]

1pump · 03-06-2003, 02:54 PM

Kiesling did the right thing. A lot of career diplomats are "yes" men (or women) who, if they don't agree with the current Administration, will just keep quiet and hold on until a new government comes in.
I'm glad he put his principles before his paycheck.

GutZ · 03-06-2003, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Fishing Geek:
Why? Do you think that something like **** Germany could only happen 60 years ago?

No, Geek it will never happen again. We (The US) will not allow it. We stopped Iraq in '91 and we will not even let them get rolling this time.

SF;
With a little revision you could use that letter to renounce your Citizenship.

speyfly · 03-06-2003, 03:38 PM

No thanks Gutz. I would rather stick around and fight for freedom and against fascism.

GutZ · 03-06-2003, 03:47 PM

Hard to believe we are on the same team. No, it's impossible to believe. You seem to think that we are the bad guys.

I wonder how many more Diplomats will resign over the next 6 years?

speyfly · 03-06-2003, 03:50 PM

No Gutz, I don't believe your the bad guys, just the guy the occupies the White House right now.

foxer · 03-06-2003, 03:59 PM

Here's a good idea. Stop replying to all of the lefty post and eventually they will be gone

HOGTIDE · 03-06-2003, 07:23 PM

...just equated the President of the United States with Adolf Hitler

What's better than using the 'race' card...of course the ultimate unethical attack of the 'Hitler' card.

...go ahead and try to reason with minds that are so frimly grounded offshore. Do you wonder why you can't reason with some folks?

These are not Patriots hiding under the old 70's guise of "one must question authority". Such irresponsible and contempt filled radicals are only slanderers and great accusers. You are NOT the stuff this great country is made of.

Hiding in your psuedo-intellectualism you are not debating issues of war and the middle east. You intentionally and blantantly slander the 'intentions' of MY nation.

By the way, the most appropriate quote to be considered by our executive branch at this time might come from Winston Churchill. After watching Germany's Weimar Republic and then National Socialist Party directly defy the provisions of the Treaty of Versailles, building up armament and eventually pushing into Poland, Churchill reflected and stated, " The Greatest Sin of my Life was the Appeasement of a Tyrant."

speyfly · 03-06-2003, 07:38 PM

Hi Hogtide, here are some more quotes that seem to fit too.

"None so blind as those that will not see."
- Matthew Henry (1662 - 1714) Commentaries, Jeremiah 20

Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not.
(Jeremiah 5:21)

When the leader of this country starts answering the questions that 50% of the people of this nation are asking, then I will listen to him with great attention and then I may gain greater trust. I have yet to ever hear him say anything other than what he has been told to say.

True · 03-06-2003, 08:08 PM

I must admit that George did seem to be dodging direct questions as Jennie said in another post. Looks like the spirit of "Slick Willie" lives in the Oval Office.

Was it just me or did it seem like he already knew what the questions were going to be when he called for them? For a man that says that he is serious about his convictions he didn't have that "air" of intensity that I was expecting to see with the threat of war looming so close. I thought it was a waste of 50 minutes myself.

GutZ, I hope that the extermination of millions never happens again but if Turkey is permitted to occupy Northern Iraq (as they want to do) what do you think is going to happen to those millions of Kurds that they hate so much?

True

kisutch · 03-06-2003, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HOGTIDE:
...just equated the President of the United States with Adolf Hitler

No comparison whatsoever. Not like the PUS wants to attack a group of people unprovoked or brainwash the populace. Not like he wants to equate an entire religion with evil. Not at all.

Quote:

What's better than using the 'race' card...of course the ultimate unethical attack of the 'Hitler' card.

Sure, like the Right compared Hussein with Hitler. It's just unethical when the Left does it.

Quote:

These are not Patriots hiding under the old 70's guise of "one must question authority". Such irresponsible and contempt filled radicals are only slanderers and great accusers. You are NOT the stuff this great country is made of.

What was it that someone was just saying about inaccurate comparisons? Inaccurate stereotypes? [img]graemlins/program.gif[/img]

What is it that you believe that is so irresponsible for questioning a war for which we have been given no reasoning? Let's see - can I pull a generic answer out of my hat here... how about "Can't you smell the smoke of the Twin Towers?" [img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img] That is truly the most disgraceful excuse I've heard in this debate. I'm sure that's precisely what the dead want: more innocent dead. Sounds like a great plan. Eye for an eye. Gee, where'd we get that idea?!?

Quote:

Hiding in your psuedo-intellectualism you are not debating issues of war and the middle east. You intentionally and blantantly slander the 'intentions' of MY nation.

Oh, I'm sorry. This is YOUR nation. If your post is any reflection of the condition of this nation, I'd rather not be a part of it.

Those are powerful words. It chokes me up to even think them. But if this country continutes on this course, I would feel no allegiance to it.
If this is not the country I was born in, it is not the country I want to die in. Once upon a time I would have told anyone, my duties are to God, Country, Family - not now. I won't stand by and bury my head in the sand with false patriotism.

Quote:

By the way, the most appropriate quote to be considered by our executive branch at this time might come from Winston Churchill. After watching Germany's Weimar Republic and then National Socialist Party directly defy the provisions of the Treaty of Versailles, building up armament and eventually pushing into Poland, Churchill reflected and stated, " The Greatest Sin of my Life was the Appeasement of a Tyrant."

Good quote. I think we differ on the application.

God save the USA from itself.

GutshotApe · 03-06-2003, 08:53 PM

"From: A galaxy far, far away" speaks volumes.....

Boedy · 03-06-2003, 09:05 PM

Edit by Boedy

[ 03-08-2003, 08:04 PM: Message edited by: Boedy ]

The Fishing Geek · 03-07-2003, 06:24 AM

Do you two gentlemen have difficulty understanding the concept of "Attack the arguement and not the presenter"?

Please, give it a bit more effort.

[ 03-07-2003, 07:24 AM: Message edited by: The Fishing Geek ]

monoman · 03-07-2003, 07:48 AM

True is right!
Many Kurds will be slaughtered. Either from the north, Turkey, or from the south, Saddam. I believe this is one reason the Turks did not want us going in from the north. What will the French/Germans do if the Turks cross the border? Will they let the Kurds be killed? What will we do?

Cool Texan · 03-07-2003, 08:13 AM

These endless political posts remind me of my grandfather. He is retired, has never been close to the family, lives alone...so he fills his days by emailing everyone he knows these extremely biased emails about how GW is the devil, we're all doomed, etc.

Its sad when you send an "unsubscribe" email to your grandfather telling him to just get over it and leave me alone with that garbage.

No more political posts for me here.... will only read the others, for these posts are a waste of my time.

kisutch · 03-07-2003, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Fishing Geek:
Do you two gentlemen have difficulty understanding the concept of "Attack the arguement and not the presenter"?

Please, give it a bit more effort.

Let's just say it speaks volumes for their "argument". :grin:

The Fishing Geek · 03-07-2003, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cool Texan:
These endless political posts remind me of my grandfather. He is retired, has never been close to the family, lives alone...so he fills his days by emailing everyone he knows these extremely biased emails about how GW is the devil, we're all doomed, etc.

Its sad when you send an "unsubscribe" email to your grandfather telling him to just get over it and leave me alone with that garbage.

No more political posts for me here.... will only read the others, for these posts are a waste of my time.

Check out the help file in your email program, and look for "Filters". The things save my sanity.

Silver Hilton · 03-08-2003, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GutZ:
No, Geek it will never happen again. We (The US) will not allow it. We stopped Iraq in '91 and we will not even let them get rolling this time.

We didn't stop the slaughter in Rwanda. We didn't stop it in Yugoslavia. People to to seem to miss the little point that it isn't actually happening now in Iraq - it's not excusable, but his gassing the kurds isn't current, not by many years. We didn't seem to think it was that important when it happened.

So what changed? Let's see, we encounter some terrorists that seem to be outsmarting us. Now, all of a sudden, Iraq is an important target. Well, if they were connected to 9/11, I guess, go to it. 9/11 was an act of war, if they are connected, lets take them out. Except we don't seem to be talking about that, we're talking about weapons of mass destruction. We keep alluding to 9/11 to whip up the fervor, but the UN docs don't talk about it. They talk about his disarmament.

Now, this doesn't make a lot of sense. If Iraq is connected with 9/11, take them out, don't pass go, don't collect 200 dollars.

But if they were tangibly connected with 9/11, I would imagine a few more of the more prominent nations in the world would be supportive of our efforts than we currently see. Sure the screaming cheese surrender monkeys have a few conflicting incentives. But I'd suspect the different language from around the world if the evidence we have had any solidity to it, and we're not seeing that. So I'm guessing whatever evidence we have presented isn't so tangible. This morning there were news reports from AP that some of the evidence we presented was determined to be forged. The report did not say by whom.

So now this is about getting Iraq to disarm.

I pray that I will be excused for thinking that this seems a bit like finding excuses for something that has been decided for other reasons. I don't know what they are. If the real rationale was presented to us, who knows, I might even agree with it.

The recent press conference was stunning in the lack of information presented, and the evasion of questions. It was a masterpiece of sticking to the message, to hell with the truth. The American people don't have a right to know apparently, we should just trust our president.

God, I want to trust my president. I just wish he'd start giving me reason to.

This discussion in this country has many of the calm unemotional aspects of a lynch mob. Those pleading the case for calm and rationality are accused of being darkie lovers and threatened with the noose themselves.

Boedy · 03-08-2003, 06:10 PM

Good Post SH

Most of it anyway :grin:

[ 03-08-2003, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: Boedy ]

The Fishing Geek · 03-08-2003, 06:25 PM

Thanks SH. I setup Gutz like that for a reason, which you spotted quickly, and stated the point well. I just got too busy in other things to be able to lay out those examples, or any of the others. We forget too quickly that Donald Rumsfeld went to Iraq after a huge Kurdish gassing by Saddam, in hopes of reopening domestic trade with them. This was during the Reagan Administration.

True · 03-08-2003, 08:16 PM

SH,

Well said!

True

speyfly · 03-08-2003, 08:20 PM

Thanks SH :smile: