We're at a crossroads, folks

The Fishing Geek · 03-04-2003, 07:36 PM

The namecalling and petty stabs from both sides of the political fence has gotten us to a point where I'm concerned that we are going to lose the LIG forum.

Jennie, Crabbait, Giz, and Pete have better things to do with their lives than have to come in here to clean up the name-calling (even if they do seem to have fun with it on occasion). It was tough to convince Jennie that this forum was something that we needed here, and then later get it in a position in the forums list that people would see it easier. It was her trust in us as an iFish community that we could conduct ourselves with the best of manners that she agreed to providing us with this forum. It's her house, and her rules.

Now we find ourselves at a crossroads. We can either travel down the same path of unruliness and lose this forum forever, or we can change the way that we conduct ourselves in here and encourage semi-intelligent debate that discusses the issues and not the people involved in the debate itself. The minute that someone attacks another person, then it gets personal, and it doesn't have to be that way.

Personally I believe that debating the character of national (or even global) personalities is fair game. Of course, if all you can come up with is the normal party lines rhetoric, then it gets really old. We've heard it all before from both sides, so instead provide information that we can debate.

So folks, the future of the LIG forum is in your hands. Either we rid ourselves of the immature attacking of other iFish members, or LIG is no more. I'm not speaking for management here, I'm speaking for how I see things heading, and it's not pretty.

Thumper · 03-04-2003, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Fishing Geek:

Personally I believe that debating the character of national (or even global) personalities is fair game ...... Either we rid ourselves of the immature attacking of other iFish members, or LIG is no more.

Think about it Geek. Bashing the President of the U.S. is fine, but bashing an Ifish member is not??? Why not adopt the same standards for both. It's called respect.

[ 03-04-2003, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: Thumper ]

True · 03-04-2003, 07:44 PM

Geek,

Well said! I think that we need to rid ourselves of the "attacking immature" that frequent these threads all too often. Was there any decision about the three strikes law? It would seem that somebody has already used them up...

True

The Fishing Geek · 03-04-2003, 07:50 PM

Good point, Thumper. Is it possible, then, to discuss their actions? I mean, can we debate what they are doing without questioning their motives, and then questioning the strength of their character?

This question can go for anyone from Michael Jackson to George Bush. How do we handle those situations?

As you can see by my Avatar, I'm all ears on this one.

03-04-2003, 07:56 PM

Tell you what Jack. I quit criticizing GW if everyone quits blaming Bill Clinton for everything that is bad in America today. I agree that the office of Presdient deserves respect but let's not throw the constitution out the window either. Isn't it great to live in a free society where we can criticize our leaders without having to worry about getting in trouble?

[ 03-04-2003, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: Stew ]

03-04-2003, 08:02 PM

Geek,

I won't go as far as Michael Jackson

.
If Bush messes up

, pound him on it. Just don't do it because it is the "Left" thing to do.

[ 03-07-2003, 07:33 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

Silver Hilton · 03-04-2003, 08:23 PM

Thumper, I see an important difference. The president, like all politicians, is a public figure. Getting slammed is part of the turf. Both the law and common practice recognize that public figures give up some of the expectations of privacy and person to person civility that we expect towards each other.

speyfly · 03-04-2003, 08:30 PM

Ya know when we get a new President in the White House life will go back to normal, the economy will be great, no wars and the world will love us again. Just don't know if the world will last till 2004 :shocked:

Silver Hilton · 03-04-2003, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Fishing Geek:
Good point, Thumper. Is it possible, then, to discuss their actions? I mean, can we debate what they are doing without questioning their motives, and then questioning the strength of their character?

This question can go for anyone from Michael Jackson to George Bush. How do we handle those situations?

As you can see by my Avatar, I'm all ears on this one.

I don't think you can limit the discussion, Geek. It's just not practical. If you are discussing politicians, their capabilities, motivations, character, honesty, etc, is at the very core of the debate.

It is impossible to have an in depth discussion of any of the presidents since at least Eisenhauer without their morality, honesty, character, intelligence being relevant. Politicians are different from our fellow citizens, as far as lines of polite discourse goes, because their strengths or failures matter so much to our own existence. I don't think it is disrespectful of us to inquire so much here - the politicians sign up for it when they run.

The question is whether politics can be discussed without the supporters or dissenters taking it personally while their icons are discussed. Recent history shows that there are a few people, some new, some old, that just can't do it.

My own belief is that it will be very difficult to have civil political discourse here. I think the compressing nature of written words makes it to easy to give and perceive offense, and there is not a long enough tradition of cutting the other guy some slack.

I'd love to be wrong.

crabbait · 03-04-2003, 08:47 PM

As usual, I tend to agree with SH on this one. When you decide on a life of public office you are open to public scrutiny and criticism. It goes with the territory.

That said, name calling is not a convincing argument no matter who you are talking about. If you are not citing specific examples that illustrate your point you are just sounding off. Who needs it?.

[ 03-04-2003, 10:29 PM: Message edited by: crabbait ]

Silver Hilton · 03-04-2003, 08:57 PM

Let me propose some examples to illustrate where I think the line should be drawn.

OK, but needlessly offensive to some: "[Clinton|Bush] is an idiot and should be sterilized to prevent us getting people more like him. "

Better: "[Clinton|Bush] is behaving dishonestly. I believe this because..."

Not OK: "[Clinton|Bush] is an idiot and should be sterilized to prevent more like him. All of you on the board here who voted for him are morons, *******, and your daughters hang out in truck stops. "

OK: "I think your reasoning is idiotic, because..."

Not OK: "I think you're an idiot. And your breath stinks."

It's easy, it fun. If the words you are typing are about the person you are responding to, you probably should think twice about typing them. Unless it's the Geek, and you're complimenting his new dress. Blue, isn't it?

Personally I don't have a problem with sarcasm directed at the argument, but sarcasm is a dull knife, and needs to be wielded very carefully, or it slips. Sarcasm directed at the person, "Oh, I didn't know [liberals|conservatives] had started to use common sense." is just sliding down the slope towards name calling. I wouldn't.

Finally, if you feel compelled to lump the person into a group in order to make your point, you are probably making a logical error, and you're probably on your way to trying to slam the person. Unless the person started his post with the phrase, "As a card carrying Audobon society member, and like all Audobon Society members believe, I think..." it is probably a mistake to ascribe either the group's idiocies to the person, or the person's idiocies to the group. The group didn't type the post you are responding to, the person did. So respond to the _point_ that the person made. Suspect words include left, right, fascist, liberal, ******, democrat, republican. If you feel the need to use one of the words, or similar, you're labeling rather than debating.

[ 03-04-2003, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: Silver Hilton ]

Silver Hilton · 03-04-2003, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by crabbait:
I tend to agree with SH on this one. When you decide on a life of public office you are open to public scrutiny and criticism. It goes with the territory.

Crabbie, you say that like we don't always agree!?! I'm crushed! :depressed:

SH - Sorry. I fixed it. All better? - crabbait

[ 03-04-2003, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: crabbait ]

kisutch · 03-04-2003, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Fishing Geek:
encourage semi-intelligent debate that discusses the issues

I believe this can be done.

As someone who has lurked for some time in the fishing forum and only last night stumbled upon the "War" thread here in LIG, I hoped it would have been a thoughtful debate of current world events.

Unfortunately, what could have been a worthwhile discussiion disintegrated into juvenile insults.

Personally, I like a good, healthy argument now and then. A challenge. It helps keep me on my toes when it comes to defending my own beliefs. It's interesting, often entertaining, and perhaps even educational. If nothing else, it helps me gain a better perspective of "the other side". Nothing wrong with that.

Straydog · 03-04-2003, 10:07 PM

I agree with Sh, public figures are fair game.

'Sides, I would never want to fishing with GW anyway, so I don't care if I tick him off!

The Fishing Geek · 03-05-2003, 06:08 AM

SH eloquated (what the blankity blank does that mean?) what I was trying to say above much better than I could at the time. I was too distracted with trying to find a suitable nail color to match my dress for the political floatilla on the 23rd.

I'm willing to keep all shots above the belt, and hope that everyone else will do the same.

Straydog · 03-05-2003, 06:15 AM

Sh,

So, if I hear you correctly, something like "The Geek, like most cross dressers, is too color blind to acceptably match his shoes with his dress and there-for should not be allowed out in public" is probably pushing the limits of Bulletin Board acceptability? :whazzup:

roadsend · 03-05-2003, 06:27 AM

"Nuke the unborn gay whales." - but do it with politeness and respect.

The Fishing Geek · 03-05-2003, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Straydog:
Sh,

So, if I hear you correctly, something like "The Geek, like most cross dressers, is too color blind to acceptably match his shoes with his dress and there-for should not be allowed out in public" is probably pushing the limits of Bulletin Board acceptability? :whazzup:

You're still bitter about not being voted the prom queen, aren't you? :tongue:

TheRogue · 03-05-2003, 07:03 AM

Jen.....

My honest opinion......Shut this venue down (Just the LIG board) for a couple of days. Leave the topics viewable, with the last topic being an explanation why it's been locked up.

Sometimes, you have to take kid's toys away for a while before they learn to play nicely.

TR

Silver Hilton · 03-05-2003, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Straydog:
Sh,

So, if I hear you correctly, something like "The Geek, like most cross dressers, is too color blind to acceptably match his shoes with his dress and there-for should not be allowed out in public" is probably pushing the limits of Bulletin Board acceptability? :whazzup:

Well, I think it's as simple as that he, like many men, including myself, suffers from a degree of color blindness, and occasionally, but surely inadvertently, risks offending those with finer sensibilities. Geek, stick with shades of blue, matched with white, and you'll be fine.

What I want to know is, does a chartreuse and silver kwikfish clash with anything?

Hogmaster · 03-05-2003, 07:33 AM

First off, I happen to know TFG only dresses in shades of gray.

The blue was not the color of his spiked pumps. Rather, it was from the toxic waste residue leaking out of the barrels that clutter the space between his single wide and the driveway!

SH gets the prize in my book for how to write "expression". Attacking someone's ideas, positions or belief is one thing, attacking the person themself is another. In the first place it never works to change their position because they will likely focus on the attack and not the "why" the position is wrong.

Of course, how do we express our feelings about Ward Weaver or Christian Longo? Yes, some people are just flat evil and deserve what they get. But most of the political stuff is about arguable points of view, not something that is clearly right or wrong no matter how much you believe it to be true.

Attacking the person sucks! Arguing their ideas might sway somebody else who hasn't formed a strong opinion on the subject, but probably won't if you attack the opposer of your views. It might re-inforce your position to your own choir, but are you just trying to boast and bellow, or do you want to convert others?

Think about it...

lost_sailor · 03-05-2003, 07:45 AM

I think LIG has been very effective at isolating the non-fishing, social/political raving that is GOING TO HAPPEN anyway. And if you can't take the heat, you can stay out of the kitchen.

Serious personal attacks are not appropriate, but the jesting (like Geek's wardrobe) is hilarious.

Public figures are exempt from slander and libel rules, it comes with the power and the glory. Tear 'em up!! (Especially monkey-boy corporate-puppet elected-by-the-minority SHRUB)

I didn't call anyone in particular a "brain-dead redneck" (or did I :whazzup: ) but it was a reaction to being labelled "liberal" (in that derogatory way) when you don't know me or my twisted little mind.

So in conclusion, my official position is "get over it, but don't be a total ( * ) "

RvW · 03-05-2003, 07:49 AM

Is it too difficult for everyone to conduct themselves as they would in a public debate, say... city hall, face to face?

Think about what you would say to others if you were in thier presence with an audience. Name calling and insults would draw even your supporters away from you, and moot your points no matter how valid.

There are people who take the oportunity to call someone a liar or a communist pig knowing they would be asked to leave, but do so anyway. I say apply real world consequences here too.

Click the reply button the podium is yours, tap on the mic, clear your throat and address the crowd in a manner that is acceptable to the crowd, and the terms of use here or get banned, plain and simple.

If you have difficulty with this you dont belong here or deserve to be heard. Use your email to call someone an idiot...why the need for an audience here?

If the mods dont like the job, assign new mods! Or better yet, conduct yourself in a manner fit to eliminate the NEED for a moderator.

[ 03-05-2003, 08:52 AM: Message edited by: cirrhosis-of-the-river ]

Straydog · 03-05-2003, 07:49 AM

Geek,

There you go, throwing your popularity in my face once again!!

:grin:

[ 03-05-2003, 08:50 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

The Fishing Geek · 03-05-2003, 08:11 AM

Hilton:

Be sure that you ONLY use hi-vis Power Pro with that quickfish. It's ALL the rave this season, and will accessorize quite nicely.

Hogmaster:

You haven't seen me when I'm dressed to the nines. Ain't NUTHIN that made red look THIS good, honey *snapping fingers*.

Straydog:

Hang on, I've got a little victory dance that goes with the ABBA that I'm listening to at the moment. You'll love it!

Silver Hilton · 03-05-2003, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Fishing Geek:
Hilton:

Be sure that you ONLY use hi-vis Power Pro with that quickfish. It's ALL the rave this season, and will accessorize quite nicely.

Straydog:

Hang on, I've got a little victory dance that goes with the ABBA that I'm listening to at the moment. You'll love it!

I'm a little scared. The Geek is riding the Hilton (the boat, darn it, get your mind out of the gutter) later this month. WHile I have been accused of putting on shows in the past, I'm a little worried that it may turn into a spectacle.

Geek, I don't know if the ghetto blaster is going to be safe up on the engine cowling - the vibrations may cause it to slide into the river.

As to the Hi Vis line, already there, big fella, my line is color matched to my plugs. I've got two rods with hi-vis yellow for the chartreuse plugs, and one rod with Fibre glo for the orange numbers. I am SO stylin'!!!

Sick personal fact, I used to own most of ABBA's albums. I've got a bit of a thing for female pop vocal groups.

[ 03-05-2003, 09:21 AM: Message edited by: Silver Hilton ]

Silver Hilton · 03-05-2003, 08:28 AM

You know, another thing is, it takes two to fight. I have personally taken to trying to simply not rise to the bait when the insults start flying. I have been recently been called a traiter, ******, liberal, coward, and have been accused of having my head where the sun doesn't shine, all for simply expressing my point of view. I have just decided not to respond to any such comment.

I encourage others to do the same.

The Fishing Geek · 03-05-2003, 08:29 AM

Here ya go, Silver Spice:

CATCH AND EAT · 03-05-2003, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheRogue:
Jen.....

My honest opinion......Shut this venue down (Just the LIG board) for a couple of days. Leave the topics viewable, with the last topic being an explanation why it's been locked up.

Sometimes, you have to take kid's toys away for a while before they learn to play nicely.

TR

It's another one of those days Kyle but I agree with ya. :smile: Better for us to argue over what is the best boat, rod, reel, and whether that fish is really 20 lbs or not.

[ 03-05-2003, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: CATCH AND EAT ]

crabbait · 03-05-2003, 08:36 AM

I think the recent "pruning" will accomplish the task, C&E. It seems that some were here just to stir the pot. Note the past tense.

C of the R - I don't recall mods complaining about the job. It is a pain that 10 percent of the people use 90 percent of our time but that is the way it goes. Your devotion makes up for it.

Thumper · 03-05-2003, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Silver Hilton:
I have been recently been called a traiter, ******, liberal, coward, and have been accused of having my head where the sun doesn't shine ......

Sounds just like the kind of language that some here use in reference to our President (liar, crook, etc.). I'd like to see it cleaned up for everyone. The Golden Rule might be useful.

RvW · 03-05-2003, 09:14 AM

Crabbait~
Many people sympathize with your babysitting role and say they wouldnt put up with whats goes on here. I think you do a fine job but personally, I also think you and the rest of the mods are too tollerant at times.

My comment was only meant to reinforce the sentance that followed it..

It would be a much nicer place to debate and discuss if there was no need for a mod. Ive drawn away from topics not for fear of being called names again, but because its very difficult to argue with a moot point such as "your a sheep" or "closed minded liberal freak"

I certainly am entertained when someone can come along and show me or the rest of the sheep HOW we qualify for these titles, but to simply be labeled is such a mediocre, if not totally inane point to rebutt that I am left speechless if I dont retaliate with a name calling episode myself. Silence speaks so much louder than words sometimes, but this concept is a mere fable among the name callers.
Shame isnt it?

[ 03-05-2003, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: cirrhosis-of-the-river ]

Thumper · 03-05-2003, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cirrhosis-of-the-river:

....... its very difficult to argue with a moot point such as "your a sheep" or "closed minded liberal freak"

Now that seems acceptable though ...

RvW · 03-05-2003, 09:24 AM

Thats debateable Thump, but what would it lead too?

crabbait · 03-05-2003, 09:31 AM

I try not to "over moderate" in order to give people room to express themselves. We have also adopted a slightly more tolerant moderation style on the LIG board.

I agree that at times things get out of hand. When you see this or think we should be taking action for whatever reason, please, hit the little triangle with the exclamation point on the post in question and send a quick message to us.

We don't do this in shifts and we have full time jobs. The board has grown so large that it si impossible to be in all places at once. We rely on you to let us know when you see something that needs our attention.

Finally, I would just like to say thank you for your support. [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

Silver Hilton · 03-05-2003, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thumper:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Silver Hilton:
I have been recently been called a traiter, ******, liberal, coward, and have been accused of having my head where the sun doesn't shine ......

Sounds just like the kind of language that some here use in reference to our President (liar, crook, etc.). I'd like to see it cleaned up for everyone. The Golden Rule might be useful. <hr /></blockquote>Well, Thumper, as I said above, I think there's a difference. Leaving aside the point that many of those who wish respect for GW had little for Billy, and vice versa, the politicans are public persons, and are therefore legitimate subjects of interest and opinion. The very fact that we have those opinions is what makes the topics so provoking.

I think sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. I have rarely heard anyone speak respectfully of both Clinton and Bush. Would you assert that we should speak only respectfully of Bill and Hillary Clinton? I realize that Bill is perhaps unique in his disgraceful acts committed within office, but the essense of the political debate is that there are those that feel that strongly about Bush. So I respectfully disagree that only respectful thought and commentary is owed to our president, regardless of his party.

[ 03-05-2003, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: Silver Hilton ]

speyfly · 03-05-2003, 12:15 PM

Hi Thumper, though I did call the current occupant of the White House names, I did promise the ifish members that I would not do it any more out of respect to the members of this fishing community and I have kept my word. Yes it is true that I do not agree with george�s agenda, I do respect and will continue to respect this country and what this country has stood fore for the last 200 years. I will always scrutinize any administration�s agenda whether it is democrat, republican or other political leanings. History has proven that you cannot blindly trust our leaders.

Thumper · 03-05-2003, 01:13 PM

Well spoken, Mr. Fly.

CATCH AND EAT · 03-05-2003, 02:48 PM

Question Authority? Or are you using the old Reagan addage of "Trust but verify"? [img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img] Speyfly, on this I think you are right on.

When we trust to much we get situations like we have in this state with our schools, taxes, and wanting to buy a Baseball tearm.

Thumper · 03-05-2003, 11:36 PM

[[/QUOTE] So I respectfully disagree that only respectful thought and commentary is owed to our president, regardless of his party. [/QB][/QUOTE]
I believe that respect is owed to any President of the US. I can disagree with him, or Bill, or Speyfly or you with respect. Though it is harder with Speyfly.... :grin:

CATCH AND EAT · 03-05-2003, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by crabbait:
I think the recent "pruning" will accomplish the task, C&E. It seems that some were here just to stir the pot. Note the past tense.

Pruning or not that kind of stuff just does not belong with all due respect.

Thumper, you are right concerning the respect of others. I know I have stepped on toes from time to time and try to appologize when I realize I am wrong. As for some pollitical targets I find it hard to respect what some folks do or are. I think there is a fine line there.

[ 03-05-2003, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: CATCH AND EAT ]

CAGEY · 03-07-2003, 04:54 PM

Well said Thumper. Dont understand why we cant carry on a decent conversation with out some one becoming nasty with the comments. I vote for Thumper.

Think about it Geek. Bashing the President of the U.S. is fine, but bashing an Ifish member is not??? Why not adopt the same standards for both. It's called respect.

HeavyMetal BankFisherman · 03-07-2003, 05:35 PM

This board is tame in comparison to many. I have made some controversial posts based upon my extreme views but I have never been called any names nor would I ever call anyone any names.

I don't see any problem with any of the topics being discussed on this board or the way in which they are being discussed.

Thats my view.

Stratocaster · 03-07-2003, 06:07 PM

Ive been called closeminded and sad, all this over the computer.But like you HMBF i will not resort to name calling or negative adjectives. Other than that the political posts have been fine in my opinion. Entertaining and educational.

Jennie@ifish · 03-07-2003, 06:44 PM

Since the board numbers are so large, I have grown a tougher skin, and if someone repeatedly makes bad choices and bad comments, or posts something very bad... I just hit the disable button!

I used to have trouble with that. I don't anymore.

It's simple! One switch of the finger. GONE!

I simply don't have time for long drawn out stories of who, what when and why.... Just easier to nuke em.

Jen

The Fishing Geek · 03-07-2003, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CAGEY:
Well said Thumper. Dont understand why we cant carry on a decent conversation with out some one becoming nasty with the comments. I vote for Thumper.

Think about it Geek. Bashing the President of the U.S. is fine, but bashing an Ifish member is not??? Why not adopt the same standards for both. It's called respect.

It's all about being a high-profile member of society, Cagey. Simple as that. How can we debate the President's actions without questioning his motives? Once we do that, then we question is morality. Do we simply not discuss specific people at all anymore?

Funny how questioning the morality of the President is off-limits, but questioning the morality of past presidents in different parties is somehow different. I'm not saying you do it, I'm saying that it seems to be the theme. If you want to address old news with Clinton and his bedroom antics, then go ahead. Know that it's old, and it doesn't affect us nearly as much as the warroom antics of our current president. Frankly, I'd rather have the good old days when we weren't out looking for a fight and instead looking for protein stains.

Finschnitzel · 03-07-2003, 10:03 PM

The only usefull information that I have gleaned from this string is that TFG listens to ABBA. Everything else is easily cured by a little common sense and respect for your peers. I'm gonna go pop Souper Trouper into the CD player and have a beer.