Good opinion piece on Klamath water woes

[Straydog]

I find this interesting and informative....
Klamath farmers won't compromise

[GutshotApe]

Gee Straydog, I find it to be yet another specious, superficial treatment of a very complex problem. Who is Tim Holt? Which enviro group is he with. What is really interesting is his refusal to even mention the Trinity, Shasta and Salmon rivers and their diversions' effect on the lower river. Also, this guy apparently buys the argument that hatchery salmon are identical to wild salmon....the "33,000 endangered fish" that were killed were HATCHERY chinook and they were killed because severe low flows in the Trinity River caused them to keg up at the confluence with the Klamath.

Sorry, Straydog......this is just more of the same tired environmentalist rhetoric....unfortunately, the enviros are unscrupulous and know how to influence public opinion (The BIG LIE technique) and we're seeing it in action here. :depressed:

Prety lame to steal what belongs to thousands of tax payers and use it to kill more fish.

Drug Manufacturing Kills

[ 03-02-2003, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[Straydog]

GSA,

What I find interesting is that you choose to ignore the fact and the examples of other farm groups coming to the table and working in good faith for compromise while the Klamath folks refuse to.

The scope of the piece, in my opinion, is the differnces in the Klamath situation in comparison to other situations. It was not to debate the Klamath and Trinity issue, it was to point out the differences of the Klamath Basin Farmers attitudes and why......

Does it not give you reason to pause when considering the ten year time period of fish screen instalation? Also know that zero effort would have been made to do this without the guarantee of public dollars to do it.


I put this out only as interesting and informative. I find the differnces in attitude and willingness to come to the table in the Klamath situation very telling and very much in line with the attitude conveyed by a KB farmer on a board I sit on. This person has stated very clearly and more than once that the farmers he is representing will do absolutely nothing for fish unless it is paid for by someone else and they are forced to do it. Perhaps this does taint my view of the farmers somewhat..

As with all opinion pieces, there are good and bad points depending on your perspective. It is too bad you seem so ready and anxious to vilify the environmental community that you seemingly pay no attention to anything else in the piece.

You respond by dwelling on what you percieve as bad and slanted only.

[ 03-02-2003, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[Straydog]

Keta,

You've been pretty quiet lately. I figured the Klamath Water Issue bait would pull you out of hiding!

Very interesting article and I will be anxious to see where it goes and what conclusions and change may come from it.

I also have to say, it begs the question, if indeed drug chemicals killed the fish, would more water, even warm water, have diluted the chemicals to the point of harmlessness?

Please note before you repeat your "warm water = dead fish" opinion, the warm water is "within the scope" of being lethal........... no hard fast guarantees that they will die. My lifelong experience on the Rogue tells me more fish survive 70 degree plus water than you are willing to admit.

Respectfully,

The Dog

[ 03-02-2003, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[GutshotApe]

Originally posted by Straydog:
GSA, You respond by dwelling on what you percieve as bad and slanted only.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">That's because the "information" in that opinion piece WAS bad and slanted.

I don't know any Klamath Falls farmers....and I know some of 'em have bad attitudes. But if they are going to have their livelyhoods taken from them it would be nice if the decision could be made based on facts....and not enviro rhetoric. Ten years ago ONRC's Wendell Wood moved to Klamath County vowing to close it down. No change things, modify to allow more for fish & wildlife.....SHUT IT DOWN! Comparing the situation in Klamath basin to SE Washington irrigators (or Savage Rapids dam and GPID's "farmers") is erroneous, simplistic and does nothing to shed light on the Klamath problem. That article was another slam at the Klamath area farmers and a one-sided slam, at that.

The water belongs in the refuge not the river. I took a bunch of Boy Scouts to the Lava Beds NM yesterday, Tule Lake and the marsh could use more. Very few birds for this time of the year.

Why don't we push to get Trinity River water back into the Klamath Drainage?

Dog,
What would you say if someone came into your house and told you that they were going to take all of your belongings. Why won't you reason with them and keep half of your property?

[ 03-02-2003, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: Keta ]

GSA,
When has the ONRC or Earth Justice ever "compromised" unless it was just step one on the way to their final goal. The ONRC targeted the Klamath Basin a long time before the coho wewe ever in trouble.

[Straydog]

GSA,

Please share with me any "two sided" opinion pieces.

Objectivity is 'supposed' to be found in the news, not opinion pieces.

Do you say it is a lie that the fish screens took over 10 years to get done?

Do you say it is a lie that other irrigation districts have shown more compromise and willingness to engage in dialogue than the Klamath folks?

Do you say it is a lie that the farmers, as smart as it was, recieved a lot of public support from thier photo opp protests?

Do you say it is a lie that an irrigation project controlled by the Federal Gov. is harder to sue and manipulate than a smaller, less secure irrigation district such as GPID?

I dare say, your broadbushed, quick to vilify the enviros. response and total discounting of any of the facts presented sound very much like one DB we talk about on another thread. :whazzup:

[ 03-02-2003, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[Straydog]

Keta,

Why don't we talk about the poor attitude of the Klamath farmers as the opinion piece in question does?

See edit above.

[Straydog]

Keta,

Classic example of apples and oranges.

However, I have willingly agreed to not harvest more than a certain amount of timber off of my property in exchange for reduced property taxes.

Seems some of the Klamath Basin farmers have tried similar avenues only to be villified by their peers........ :whazzup:

[GutshotApe]

Originally posted by Keta:
Prety lame to steal what belongs to thousands of tax payers and use it to kill more fish.

Drug Manufacturing Kills

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Keta - Good article....but even with all the meth labs in the area, I'd be very surprised if they had anything to do with the fish kill...could be, perhaps, but seems unlikely any meth lab chemicals would be in high enough concentration to hurt the fish unless dumped right above them.

Sounds like the Hoopas are barking up the right tree!

A basic problem with public understanding of the Klamath basin situation is a lack of geographic familiarity.....most people have no idea of how large the basin is, of the runoff characteristics, where the KFalls area is in relation to the mouth of the Trinity, or much of anything else about it. Its all an abstract concept for most.

[ 03-02-2003, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: GutshotApe ]

[GutshotApe]

Originally posted by Straydog:
GSA,

Please share with me any "two sided" opinion pieces.

Do you say it is a lie that the fish screens took over 10 years to get done?

Do you say it is a lie that other irrigation districts have shown more compromise and willingness to engage in dialogue than the Klamath folks?

Do you say it is a lie that an irrigation project controlled by the Federal Gov. is harder to sue and manipulate than a smaller, less secure irrigation district such as GPID?

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">I think opinion pieces written by Michael Kelley are fair & balanced. And, everything I've ever written is also fair, balanced & objective.

Most enviro propaganda contains just enough truth to make the rest sound factual.

Comparing the GPID "farmers" to the Klamath basin farmers is truely "apples & oranges".

Apparently projects like the upper Klamath Basin project are easier to sue and manipulate than the Trinity River diversion into the Central Valley project.

Straydog - You, EarthJustUs, Tim Holt and all the other critics are just not addressing the salient point: The fishkill had very little if anything to do with the upper Klamath basin water system....and everything to do with the Trinity River diversion. A bucket of water taken from the upper basin from high spring runoff flows is not the same as a bucket of cold, clear water taken from the Trinity River in September. As I have tried repeatedly to convey, if not for the releases of stored water from the upper basin in August & Sept, there would be very little water in the river....yet you seem to think the fair, logical and reasonable solution is to require upper basin irrigators to be shut off.....and release even more late summer water.....and allow the Californicaters to continue diverting the Trinity River. Sheesh!

It was the Feds that took 10 years to put in the fish screen. The screens won't do anything for the salmon in the river unless they learn to fly and can get around Irongate Dam. The screens are for the mullet (Klamath Basin Suckerfish). It isn't the irrigation canal that's threatening the suckers anyway. The sucker decline is due to 90% of their spawning habitat being blocked off by a dam .

[Straydog]

GSA,

You misunderstand me. I am not condoning nor promoting the complete cut off of basin farmers. Never have, never will. On the other, I am also not going to condone the total cut off of water for fish.

All I am asking for is conservation and consideration of the bigger picture by all concerned. I agree we need to go after central valley water as well. Savage Rapids Dam and the Basin are not as different as you think if look at it from my perspective. It took years of fighting and very expensive court battles for people to understand the dynamics of the GPID and it's use of water has changed over time. That understanding helped get us where we are today. In a similar but less obvious way, so has the Klamath basin. I think it is pretty well recongnized that huge agri business, changing world trade conditions and the related imports have put the hurts to agriculture. I also think it is pretty well recognized that many Klamath farms are not profitable and that we are spending a lot of money subsidizing them. Why not reevaluate the farming needs and true contribution to the economy and grow and nurture those that are viable and able to be profitable while lessoning the number of non viable farms and using there water more wisely for the benefit of many?


Keta,

I use the screen issue only to show the attitude and lack of action by the gov.and the farmers. When the wanted water they got action. Had they wanted screens as adamently they could have gotten screens. Your reply very much sums up the attitude of many of your neighbors. "It is not our problem what happens to fish, it's up to the Gov. to worry about that." Yet publicly they say they want to get along and do whats best for all.

Why has there been resistance to willing seller buy outs from many of the farmers? That too could be beneficial to the refuge, couldn't it?

The feds still were the bottle neck with the fish screen.

I don't know why on the set aside program. Any surplus summer/fall water should go to Lower Klamath or Tule Lakes. Spring or winter water would be ok to put down the canyon.

[skein]

You know, I'd like to find out more about this issue, partly because I think it's going to be huge this coming summer and fall. I tend to agree with GSA and Keta, and my gut tells me we made a commitment to the farmers in the area, and should honor that agreement - even when it's hard to do so. (sometimes referred to as "3 o'oclock in the morning courage)

But I don't know, because I've never traced the water down there, looked at the dams, considered the overall "basin," etc, etc. How about the four of us - Straydog, GSA, Keta and myself get together down there and spend a long weekend "going where the water goes."

We can all ride pretty comfortably in my truck and I'll even buy dinner. Then each of you can show me what you're talking about.

Any takers?

Skein

I'm already here and waiting. They're catchng a few nice ones on the lake now. It's still a bit early for the canyon due to the "cold water" comming out of the lake. The steelhead might be hitting below Hellsgate but I don't have a clue to where to fish for them down in California.

PS: With the new fish screen in place the sucker fishing in the cannal is going to be bad :grin:
Lots of Specks and Ross geese here now!!!

[ 03-03-2003, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[Straydog]

I would be interested in doing this if for nothing more than to meet you and GSA in person. Keta and I have already 'bonded'. :grin:

I do have to tell you though that I wont have time until at least May or late April. I am in the middle of trying to find funding for our Watershed Council to pay our coordinator and am on the School Budget committee with meetings scheduled one and two times a week until April. As we stand now we have to cut $5,251, 089 out of a school budget that has been taking steady hits since 1999.

Maybe when we get this budget thing settled I can make time for a ride along to the Klamath river. Keta, when is a good time to catch some of those killer trout below John C Boyle dam??

Late April to early June. I don't know if it's open in April though. I'll check.

[GutshotApe]

I'd be game to do something like the tour you propose.....seems like I spend a lot of time in the Klamath basin anyway.....would be fun to meet you guys. I like to fish the headwater areas in the upper Sprague/Sycan area.....and with the low snowpack that could happen as early as mid-late May? You could see thousands of acres of "1980s ***** & pillaged" & clearcut forests that have already recovered their hydrological functioning and much of their wildlife habitat value.......at high elevation, on harsh sites, with relatively slow-growing trees. I've fished the main river canyon below JCBoyle a few times, usually in late May or early June for the "best" fishing.....although I don't consider the fishing there to be as good or as much fun as fishing the headwaters. Its a beautiful canyon but the river goes up & down like a toilet flushing due to peak-power production on JCB.....and the canyon has a BLM road thus lots of other people.....but there are fish there.....just not very many and few over 10". The river section between JCB dam and JCB powerhouse looks great.....spring-fed, clear, cold....but I've heard it is too clear & cold.....and while it has fish there aren't very many or any big ones. Could be reverse propaganda as I've never actually fished the spring section....but you can see part of it from the road.

The Sprague/Sycan area, where I learned to love fishing :smile: I haven't been up there for over 20 years and want to hit it again.
I don't know how bad US Timberlands has cut up there but they aren't as concerned about sustained yield as the former owner was.

[skein]

Okay, it's a plan. We go whenever SD and Keta can get free. (I don't envy you in your budget struggle, SD) Early May would work, or anytime for that matter. Keta, you and SD pick a time, and I suspect that me and GSA can fit into it.

I like this idea, because I'm gonna learn some things from you guys and share some ideas.

Skein

I can get out most any time. We're lambing now but they should be done soon. The poor ewes look like they are going to explode!!! So far all twins except for 1 set of triplets.