Warm Fuzzy for Iraqi Tank Crews

[GutZ]

Iraqi Tank Crew Greeting

click LOSAT

The video from the AC-130 over Afghanistan is pretty cool, too. [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

[Cool Texan]

[ 02-27-2003, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: Cool Texan ]

[ultralight]

It's a little sickening to think that some people can actually think it's COOL to slaughter human beings, good or bad. :depressed:

[Stz ll]

Thats an awsome video.

[Kruechief]

You know when terrorists hit the WTC, liberals in this country shut their big pie holes for at least a week. It is sickening to me that with in two weeks they were back in full force. Man it was nice not to hear their BS and anti-American propaganda for even that short of a time.

Perhaps we should dialog the nice Iraqi leader or throw stones at him. I am sure that will get his attention.

Yes, we are a great and powerful nation with many deadly weapons that rival the imaginations and fantasies of science fiction writers. War isn't a personal vendetta and neither is the death penalty. Certainly, today’s war is detached and impersonal.

Everyday, young blacks die in the city jungles of America and poor whites die in Appalachia and people want to whine about a deadly enemy with an agenda to wipe out our people. Plus, how do you even now anyone was in the tank?

Krue

[lost_sailor]

what's that about "simple minds" ?

[Boedy]

That tank was on a Range and no one was in it .


The AC-130 video on the other hand was outstanding show of force and should be sent out to every terrorist organization in the world just to let them know their chances when old Specter comes a calling. They are truly impressive and nothing makes a grunt happier then to know one is looking after them on a cold night in bad guy land.

[O'City Fisherman]

Being there to see the live version was an incredible sight. :shocked: . Your right Boedy that was on a range and not a mission tank..

If anyone has a thought that "oh-poor people" guess what they have a choice to get into that situation or not.

If you are in any armor vehicle you are saying to us that you want to die..

If you are not in the armor vehicle then we will feed you, cloth you and give you a chance to live. . That is the choice that the people over there have.

So if you are feeling sorry for the people that decide to stand up to a much more powerfull force then I am sorry, but until you have been there DO NOT PREACH TO ME ABOUT THOSE POOR PEOPLE.

[Straydog]

O city,


The problem is, these things will not just target enemy tanks. Many, many innocent people with no or little choice will die from these "awesome" toys.

Another problem with your post is that there is a very real chance that no, many do not have much choice as to be in those vehicles or not.
Remember, one of the justifications for the impending massacre is the lack of personal freedom and choice in Iraq yet you offer the absurd notion that these people are at war by choice......... :whazzup:

Some of you, respectfully, remind me of little kids playing GI Joe with your tough guy talk from the warmth and security of your computer desk.

What a long strange trip it is.................

[ 02-27-2003, 07:40 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[Kruechief]

SD,

Be aware that many of us HAVE SERVED and I, for one, would be there again.

Do you think that the National Guard will take a broken down 40-year old?

I love this country and the ideals and norms it stands for (although these are now severely watered down).

I was in the Navy when another dictator from Libya started drawing lines.

Krue

[Ex-military]

Straydog, what are you implying when you say that "these things" will not just target enemy tanks? They don't have minds of their own..they have to be targetted by people. And they aren't fired blind, a sensor has to spot a target to fire at. I'm a little perplexed, do you actually believe that we just fire indiscriminantly at anything that moves ??

[lost_sailor]

I was in Spain when we bombed Libya. The hatred of Americans went up to the point where I essentially fled the country.

Don't give me the "anti-American" line. My concern is how we are going to alienate ourselves from our neighbors when we provoke our little war. It really is a big world out there, why do we have to control it all?

[Cool Texan]

I stewed over this one last night...and I'd like to retract any posts I had regarding that video being "cool". Here's why....while it is a daunting message to those people who'd like to mess with us, there is no clear distinction that those people on the ground were terrorists or otherwise bad guys. For all we know, we saw a bunch of women and children being killed after leaving their mosque.

Either way...I dont think that the deaths of any people is something for us to be gawking at or celebrating. Right or wrong, good guys or bad...people are dying in that video. Just try to keep that in mind. I'd actually like to see this thread disappear, as I dont plan on watching that AC-130 video again. The tank video is totally cool, as no real people are involved. I'd just rather not see people die....regardless of who they are. The God I worship teaches me otherwise.

[Straydog]

Ex military,

What I mean is that those aiming these missle launchers will not only be aiming them at tanks......... I am confident they will be aiming them at other targets as well.

Cool Texan,

Excellant post, I am embarassed that I got myself pulled into this garbage.

If you are interested in how "cool" our President thinks killing people is, check out my description of his presentation when I saw him in Medford last fall. It is posted on the "How many dead Iraqi's" thread......

[ 02-27-2003, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[Ex-military]

Straydog...I don't want this thread to degenerate into sludge, but I take exception to
your insinuation that our military is less than professional in their conduct. I will acknowledge there have been and always will be individual acts of cowardice and abuses by military members, but by any measure the current US military is one of the most professional and respectful in history. We have the most lethal means of warfare at our disposal but also use those wepaons in a manner and on targets with which they are intended. Anti-tank weapons like those shown in the video are not very good anti-perdonnel weapons, and most anti-personnel weapons aren't very good against armor. Each weapon has it's purpose and the military is trained to use the right weapon for the job.
As far as not being for any upcoming conflict in Iraq...great for you, that is your right and I'm happy you feel you should voice that right. I personally believe we are doing the right thing by pressuring Iraq to comply with UN resolutions by having prepared forces deployed. Although a lot of people do not believe Bush is a very capable foreign policy President, I think he is doing the right thing in this case by offering both the carrot and the stick. If he really was a warmonger or had imperialist ideals, we would have already secured Baghdad and would not be waiting for consensus from the UN Security Council as we are now.

[Straydog]

Ex,

Tell that to the dead Canadians and their families.

Even the most prudent professionals can and do make mistakes while under the influence of govermnent supplied amphetamines.

Even the most prudent professionals can and do make mistakes in time of high stress.

Even the most prudent professionals will aim these weapons at whatever source is firing upon them in the heat of battle. We will be engaged in urban warfare. These weapons may not be to effective aimed on the front lines in the desert. These weapons will be very effective aimed at densly situated office buildings, apartment complexes and other urban structures that will undoubtidly house military and civilian people.

I am sorry you take exception. Reality does indeed create exception at times......

[ 02-27-2003, 09:49 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[Ex-military]

Stray

Even the most prudent professionals can and do make mistakes in time of high stress.

true...mistakes happen, I won't argue that point. I also won't argue that if we go into Iraq, there will be quite a few fatalities with most of them not being ours. Urban warfare is indeed a messy and stressful type of combat...the open battleground of the desert is not so much. Maybe our difference in opinion comes from our backgrounds and my personal experience with military forces, but no reasonable on scene commander is going to level an apartment building because there are a dozen enemy troops holed up inside.
The days of wonton destruction seen in WWII are long gone, and I say very good riddance.
Innocent people will die, it is sad but also realistic, but we (the collective we) try to reduce that as much as possible.

[Ex-military]

Stray...
Maybe the best thing is to agree that we disagree...I have no desire to change your mind or your perception. We both come at the same idea with the hope for the same outcome...no conflict, just from different angles...but if there is conflict I have faith that our troops will be swift, decisive, and humane.

[Straydog]

Ex,

I can agree to that!!

[Just_learning]

Well, here I am, back and ready to post some more anti-war stuff, I didnt have a chance to get back to my last post, I am not at all controverasial, but about the war, Just have a few things to say about the first gulf war and a few questions to ask the genral public...

Do you think Politicians ever lie?
Why isit that [ep[;e are so skeptical about politicians until it come sto issues of war and peace? Arent these the same people who lie, and manipulate us into believing everything else?

Just a few facts:
Our politicians were complicit in Iraqs invasions of Iran and Kuwait.

Our govenrment supplied chemical and biological agents to Iraq in the 80's and then protected them against UN sanctions for using them.

Beofre the first gulf War, officials of the Bush administration tricked the American public and the Saudi government into thinking Iraq was giong to invade Saudi Arabia.

Pentagon experts agree that theres a DIRECT link between past US foreiggn policy and terrorist attacks on our country.

For the past 50 years, our government has set up and supported dictatos, turning the citizens of those countried into sworn US enemies.

and ABOVE all, Bush has not recieved the required constitional authorization to go to war with Iraq.

Below is a paper I have wrote for a class of mine and I believe it pretty much outlines the United states hard feelings and those of the people living abroad in the rest of the world.
Gerry Dantone claims, in his thoughts on “What lies behind Terrorism”, that the militant Islamic regimes that have been responsible for terrorist acts are fundamentally against the expression of freedom that western influence represents. This explanation is far too black and white in both painting those of the Islamic faith as simple reactionary zealots, and in ignoring the effects of over fifty years of American foreign policy.

Islamic fundamentalists are not simply wild religious, who, possessed by the spirit of Allah and the promise of glory in the afterlife, gleefully fly jets into buildings. Yes, they may be offended when they turn on MTV to see if Sketchers has a new sandal out and see the new Christina Aguilera video, but so would someone of Amish fait. Yet we never see a quiet bearded man in a black suit driving a horse and buggy packed with dynamite into New York. To resolve this Middle Eastern conflict, we need to understand the rational ground for terrorist activity.

The reality behind the propaganda that paints Islamic activists as crazy zealots is that the United States and Israel have, for over fifty years, enforced a hard line foreign policy that has alienated both Islamic leaders and average citizens. Militarily the United States has provided Israel with the weapons and training necessary to defend and expand its little empire. Israel is the only country in the Middle East allowed to possess weapons of mass destruction.

At the same time, Israel follows an aggressive foreign policy, which includes spying, extortion, and kidnapping. Many of these activities have even taken place in the lands of other sovereign states. Add this to the United States willingness to switch alliances or turn on former allies, and it is easy to understand how the idea of the “imperialist devil” emerges. To foment peace in the Middle East, Americans must take a step back and unravel the more than fifty years of damage that has been done to the region by our flawed foreign policy.

[GutZ]

Originally posted by Just_learning:
Beofre the first gulf War, officials of the Bush administration tricked the American public and the Saudi government into thinking Iraq was giong to invade Saudi Arabia.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Just Learning, you must of Just Forgotten the below ...

The Battle of Al-Khafji and Contact at Al-Wafrah
On 29 January, attention abruptly shifted from air operations to the JFC-E and Marine areas. Iraqi armored forces launched cross-border attacks, the most newsworthy at Al-Khafji. However, a second attack, directed at the area south and west of Al-Wafrah, engaged I MEF's TF Shepherd. A young Marine corporal in the 2nd LAI Battalion scored a TOW antitank missile kill in the dark from more than 3,000 meters as a T-55 tank emerged through the border berm, blocking the exit and halting further Iraqi advance. The next day, the 6th Marine Regiment rushed northward and dug in south of Al-Wafrah, ending any Iraqi threat in that sector, although sporadic artillery fire continued for several days.
At Al-Khafji, Arab forces, supported by Marine forward observers, who called and adjusted artillery and CAS, pushed invading Iraqi columns back into Kuwait. At the height of the fighting, a Marine reconnaissance team, cut off in the town and cornered on the roof of a building, continued to report enemy movements and call in air and artillery fires. These battles proved costly to the Iraqis while instilling new confidence in the Coalition and providing Marines combat experience. (See Chapter 6 for details on air operations at Al-Khafji.)

http://es.rice.edu/projects/Poli378/...of%20Al-Khafji

I presume that most of your other statements are as easily brushed aside. Keep Learning.

Friendly Fire aka Fratricide is a terrible thing. The less time it takes us to DESTROY the enemy, the fewer of these incidents there will be.

PS I really liked the part where the Taliban Terrorist gets blown up and you can see the pieces scattering into the desert.

[Cool Texan]

Gutz....you assume it was Taliban. How would you feel about it if it were an innocent child?

Not really sure how people can get excited about seeing people die.

[ultralight]

Originally posted by Cool Texan:
I stewed over this one last night...and I'd like to retract any posts I had regarding that video being "cool". Here's why....while it is a daunting message to those people who'd like to mess with us, there is no clear distinction that those people on the ground were terrorists or otherwise bad guys. For all we know, we saw a bunch of women and children being killed after leaving their mosque.

Either way...I dont think that the deaths of any people is something for us to be gawking at or celebrating. Right or wrong, good guys or bad...people are dying in that video. Just try to keep that in mind. I'd actually like to see this thread disappear, as I dont plan on watching that AC-130 video again. The tank video is totally cool, as no real people are involved. I'd just rather not see people die....regardless of who they are. The God I worship teaches me otherwise.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">It's so cool to see that you have an open mind and humility to change your mind and publicly admit it--something too few of us are courageous enough to do on these boards. [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

[GutZ]

Tex;
Have you listened to the video? I believe that the targets are clearly identified. If you don't care to look and listen here is some text from the page -

"The gun camera video is most likely footage from a November, 2001, attack by U.S military forces on terrorists in Afghanistan. Taliban and Al Quaeda terrorist officials were attempting to meet near Kandahar Airfield. Their vehicle convoy was detected by USAF JSTARS and Predator recon assets, and the AC-130 was subsequently tasked to the area for combat"

[Cool Texan]

Gutz, and who is the author of the page? Who knows...right?

Secondly...yes, I have ears. My point is that had they been watching that area for hours so that they knew EVERYONE who was there? I dont doubt for a second that they knew who drove the cars there, etc. However, are you 100% sure that there were no kids? No "clergymen" (whatever you call them in a mosque)? No women? No, you cant. All you see are white blips running for their lives. If it was truly all "bad guys", then sure, the action was justifiable. The point is though, good guy or bad guy, its just difficult to say its cool to see someone killed.

[speyfly]

And people wonder why kids are killing each other in record numbers. With adult like some on this BB setting poor examples, no wonder this country is going down the tubes. I know, it's like a big video game huh!

[ 02-27-2003, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: speyfly ]

[Kilgore]

You guys make it sound like killing is bad.

You mean we need to set good examples for our children? C'mon, is that really important?

Besides, are non-American lives really worth that much?

[ 02-27-2003, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: Kilgore ]

[speyfly]

I want to personally thank Jenn and the moderators for letting these threads continue. I feel it is very important for our ifish community and this nation to see the ugly Americans (the enemy among us). As others have said, “we gave up the moral high ground a long time ago".

[ 02-27-2003, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: speyfly ]