Wife Beating

It is certainly against Islam to beat a good wife. An erring wife should be warned first and advised. If that does not work, then the husband could give her a light beating, the
purpose of that being to embarrass rather than inflict pain.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">:depressed: What Next :depressed:

[lost_sailor]

As soon as domestic abuse is no longer a problem in our own culture ... will it be OK to impose our values on other cultures?

[True]

Years ago in Argentina a man could actually kill his wife without serious repercussions (if any) if it was found that he had "just cause." It makes me sick.

True

LS,
I just thought it was an interesting way to view this problem. :depressed: "A good wife" :depressed:

Mine wouldn't put up with this and hit back with a bat or get her :shocked: "Bobbit Knife" :shocked: out.

[Fshklr]

Very disturbing article in that link keta...Maybe those wives should enroll in Smith and Wesson 101. Along with DEEP gardens 102

[The Fishing Geek]

What lost_sailor said.

[Just_learning]

Ok, I would like to say something about the quote, it has really enflamed me. This countrys beliefs on Islam can not be more skewed than they possibly are. As a muslim and part of a devout muslim family I would like to just say a few things.
1. Islam is against hierarchy! Men and women are equal. Islam is the first religion to free women when it came into being. Back when women were still under mens rule in Europe and under "christian values."

2. Radical Islamist views will not last. Like any thing else, that is too far off from the norm, IT WILL NOT LAST.

There are so many things that people dont understand and are so soon to believe anything that they read and hear.
Sorry this is short, but I will spend more time on it later if I get replies, I have to go to class.

Tight lines

[Smj]

Just_learning, Here's a reply for ya'. I would love to hear more, please!

One side says all infadels must be eliminated and the other side says Islam is a peaceful religon, I'm confused.

Wasn't it OK to beat your wife in America not too awful long ago??

Smj

[RvW]

Not too long ago it was acceptable to deficate in the street, or pour your bedpan out the window onto the walk. I dont think this was exclusive to a particular creed.

Not too long ago it was common for americans to PURCHASE african natives like animals, ship them here and force them to labor....... **** and whip them, hang them and torture them. I dont think this had much to do with a constitution founded on christian values.

Not too long ago, mentally ill people were given shock treatments and frontal labotomies, I dont think there was much regard to human rights issues.

I could go on and on, the point being that we as a nation are far from having a clean slate, yet we attempt to impose our values on other countries?

Our standards of life have evolved through a natural course of time, with trial and error and I believe that we should allow other cultures to do the same and ignore the irrelevant aspects of color, creed etc. because as "just learning" said, and lost sailor reinforces, this issue isnt exclusive to a culture and a culture cannot be held responsible for the actions of its individuals, only the individuals can.

Heck there are cultures that believe a marriage is for life, and there are no options for divorce, come to think of it, there isnt even a contractual agreement in many cases.
Maybe a good way to end divorce in this counry is to end marriage? Seems to me most domestic violence is between the married.

(edited for historical accuracy..thanks Keta)

[ 02-19-2003, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: cirrhosis-of-the-river ]

[Boedy]

I was trying to point out how quick the left is to jump up on the soapbox and take the perceived high moral ground as soon as anybody from the right makes a statement Like the one Keta made regarding how some countries in the middle East treat women. And instead of yes Keta that it is bad to beat a woman we get.

Originally posted by lost_sailor:
As soon as domestic abuse is no longer a problem in our own culture ... will it be OK to impose our values on other cultures?

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">They can find a reason why everything that happens in this world is our fault and refuse to hold the people accountable for their own actions.

Originally posted by cirrhosis-of-the-river:
Not too long ago it was acceptable to deficate in the street, or pour your bedpan out the window onto the walk. I dont think this was exclusive to a particular creed.

Not too long ago it was common for americans to PURCHASE african natives like animals, ship them here and force them to labor....... **** and whip them, hang them and torture them. I dont think this had much to do with a constitution founded on christian values.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Your post also blames the USA and tries to advert attention from Keta’s original post so you can go on a tirade about how horrible this country is and all its past wrongs from 200 years ago. You don’t address the issue that Keta brought up you just jump up on the old Soapbox and lash out at American society as if we are the real reason a man in Saudi Arabia fells its ok to beat his wife because the Koran says so.

[The Fishing Geek]

Nobody is blaming America for those things, Boedy. That's silly. They're just saying that we should clean up our own back porch before we complain about our neighbors'.

[The Fishing Geek]

Originally posted by ultralight:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="verdana,arial,helv">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Originally posted by The Fishing Geek:
Well thank goodness everyone is in agreement on how the Bible should be interpreted.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Folks, they now sell Bible in English, even American. For reals. No interpretation required. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">You don't really wanna play the "take the literal translation of the Bible" game, do ya?

[Boedy]

Originally posted by The Fishing Geek:
Nobody is blaming America for those things, Boedy. That's silly. They're just saying that we should clean up our own back porch before we complain about our neighbors'.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Our porch is alot nicer then alot of places I've been.

I think the shifting the focus to the USA instead of addressing the issue raised by Keta in his original post is what I was getting at

[RvW]

Whao...take both the "right" and the "right" lenses out of those glasses there Boe.

My examples were put there to paint a picture of how issues come and go with time, and not pressure from other points of view or the ideals by which the people supposedly funtion on.

People didnt stop deficating in the streets because someone elses bible said it was unholy.

People didnt stop trading slaves because they suddenly woke up to a different cultures acceptable standards of human rights.

I think if Muslims do beat their wives, they are certainly not going to be required to abandon their religeous beliefs to stop.

I think Lost-Salors post can be interpreted a few different ways, one being that WIFE beating needs to stop everywhere, not when its acceptable and irradicated in the US.

I am proud of this countries advancements with human rights issues, and I dont think that we are out of line by offering what we have learned to those who may need the guidance, but to do this by way of singling out a specific culture or religion is absurd and counterproductive if you ask me, and is likely met with the same attitude you assume I have ..a broad overview of our mistakes invalidaing our advice on similar issues.

[ 02-19-2003, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: cirrhosis-of-the-river ]

[Boedy]

:grin:

[ 02-19-2003, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: Boedy ]

CotR,
Quote "Not too long ago it was common for american ships to travel to African countries and corral natives like animals"

No they were purchased by the British, from the Muslim traders that captured them.
Most everything else I agree with.


Just_learning,
Hit the link and see where I got the quote. I don't think that that source has an anti Muslim slant. I go there daily.

[ 02-19-2003, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[Boedy]

Just learning,

I spent some time in Saudi Arabia and a few other Muslim countries back in the early 90’s and the word equal is not how I would describe the relationship between husband and wife instead words like subservient, property and only a little above cattle are some of the things that come to mind. I am sure here in the States it is different but from what I have seen it’s almost like two different religions when compared to that of most Middle Eastern countries.

I love how the left can say how horrible the women’s right situation is around the world one minute then the next minute say that we shouldn’t judge other cultures. Just goes to show how easy is it for them to make a 180 turn on any stance when it suites their agenda.

[ 02-19-2003, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: Boedy ]

[speyfly]

The neo-right reminds me of the Spanish bringing Christianity to the world; If you don't covert then you will die a horrible death by MY hands.

[ 02-19-2003, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: speyfly ]

Spey,
You could say the same about many religions including the Muslims. It's wrong no matter who is doing it.

[The Fishing Geek]

Well thank goodness everyone is in agreement on how the Bible should be interpreted.

[Boedy]

I’m agnostic….I think

[RvW]

Keta...Ive edited my post for historical accuracy.

Uhh, what does "muslim" have to do with the slave trade?

The british are from britain

The muslims are from muslaim?

Boe, Im having a hard time with your analogy that the left have made a 180 with regard to anything relevant.
How is it that the "left" would see womens rights being troubled any more than the "right" would, when the issue is a beaten woman standing in front of both of us.

Its true, I will not judge a culture any more than ONE person at a time. But change a culture that beats a woman? or change the person that beats a woman?

[Silver Hilton]

We should remember that there are two elements to this culture, that it is saudi arabia, and that it is muslim. I woner if you find many Muslims in America who would agree with this piece. There are also fundamentalist christian sects that aren't too far from this in viewing the wife's role as being subservient to the husband. The name David Koresh comes to mind.

There are some serious problems in Hindu India that are not far different from this.

Culture is complex.

[ultralight]

Originally posted by The Fishing Geek:
Well thank goodness everyone is in agreement on how the Bible should be interpreted.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Folks, they now sell Bible in English, even American. For reals. No interpretation required.

SH,
Wahabi (sp?) not Saudi.

CotR,

Are you serious about the Muslim slave trade?
http://africanhistory.about.com/libr.../aa101101a.htm
<a href="http://www.cocc.edu/cagatucci/classes/hum211/timelines/htimeline3.htm" target="_blank">

http://www.cocc.edu/cagatucci/classes/hum211/timelines/htimeline3.htm[/url]

[ 02-19-2003, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[Tilla]

I know that I should avoid these discussions. But one of the most distubing conversations I heard a few years back was on a Sunday religeous talk radio program while traveling south of Idaho and east of Nevada. A woman was calling in about what to do about her husband beating her almost every week because he was unhappy about just everything and it was getting worse. His only advice to the caller was that she needed to pray harder.

[happybrew]

Originally posted by speyfly:
The neo-right reminds me of the Spanish bringing Christianity to the world; If you don't covert then you will die a horrible death by MY hands.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Actually, Speyfly, the Spanish missionaries often complained about the treatment of the Native Americans by the Spanish soldiers.

happybrew